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Hi, you see, right now I play Warmachines, which is a fairly balanced game. What I mean of course is that each faction is equal in term of tactical power and there are no bad armies in it (those who watch many miniwargaming videos of Matt know what I am talking about). What I wanted to know was if this game was more tactically balanced than W40k, or if I should keep with Warmachine. I'd like to start a WoC army, since they are awesome and building an army of them is cheap. Thx for your answers.

This game is considerably more balanced than 40k, each of the army books released in the current edition are very well balanced against each other and there is little power-creep between them.
There is however the occasional instances of old-school shenaningans with the older books that are slightly more narrow in the lists that they can field and are normally capable of some rather silly stuff (looking at you, slann mage-priests), but compared to 40k, GW has been rather prompt in getting as many armies updated into 8th as possible.

1.) In 8th edition, magic is quite strong and unpredictable, so a lucky dice roll can pwn any tactics. There are house rules to limit the effect of magic (and terrain), but they can not completely get rid of that.
2.) A few armies like Wood Elves are far less competitive than others.
3.) Some players don't mind all this, as Warhammer is less a fierce competitive duell than Warmachine but more a friendly game to talk about later, with rich background. Supplements like Storm of Magic support this type of gamer.

It's a very well balanced game*.

*Each army can field a competitive army that is, more or less, on even footing with competitive armies from other books. Some books, such as Tomb Kings and Wood Elves, have fewer competitive builds whereas other books, like Ogres or Warriors of Chaos, are just solid and it's easy to have a competitive army from a random collection of models.

I'm big into 40k as well and I think it's more balanced than 40k is right now.

Each army book released seems to be making it more and more balance, but as Kroothawk says, it's never going to be as carefully balanced as Warmachine. It's just a different kind of game.

The game is very balanced but like anything there are ways to not make friends and bring some cheese.

My Local Meta are slowly moving over to WHFB from 40K....

The games are more interesting and much much more balanced than 40K.

40K will take YEARS to be balanced in its current state, unless 6E is a fresh start like 3E was with a mini dex in the back but that would just kill the Crons etc.. who were just released.

Adepticon was won by GK... Shocking... 8/16 of the finalist played GK.... You do not see this type of Army stacking in WHFB... Anyone can beat anyone on any day.

Not sure if trolling (maybe, maybe not, anyway it's to late), but I have another thread where I explain my problem with much more details :

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/446104.page

8th edition books are balanced against each other, but previous edition books are much less balanced, in both directions. Wood Elves are hard to play, while Warriors of Chaos seem to have answers to (almost) everything. Empire, O&G, Tomb Kings, Ogres and Vampires are all pretty on par to each other, with many posters on here claiming that Ogres have a slight edge, while in my hometown O&G are considered the book pulling ahead a bit. Rest assured, if GW keeps on the road it's on, future 8th edition books will be of equal power to the hardbacks already out. Wood Elves will get better, Chaos will go down in power a bit. If you want a safe book, pick something in hardback, otherwise you may be unhappy with changes. Of course, you could just go with Wood Elves, get used to playing a sub-par army, and when the new book comes out you can pummel just about everyone in your area. Food for thought

Milisim wrote:My Local Meta are slowly moving over to WHFB from 40K....

The games are more interesting and much much more balanced than 40K.

40K will take YEARS to be balanced in its current state, unless 6E is a fresh start like 3E was with a mini dex in the back but that would just kill the Crons etc.. who were just released.

While this is pretty off topic - while the core rules for 40k desperately need a rewrite, as right now they are simply two editions of piling rules onto 3rd editions backbone, but it doesn't necessarily need to invalidate current books. While challenging, it wouldn't be impossible to write a while new rule system, as the only things they need to carry over are movement based on unit type and characteristics. Even if they ditched USRs, a few erratas could be issues until books get redone.

Warhammer isnt in a great place at the moment to be honest, but its right in the middle of an edition update so theres not alot to expect, some armies are over powered due to the new change in rules being slightly more beneficial to their army rules which have not been edited yet, for example skaven with the stead fast rule are pretty insane at the moment, so are WoC with parries. Cav took a pretty steap blow especially for chaos, personally I dont think this is a bad thing because Cav was always slightly over powered, just a shame for books that have not been re-done yet where Cav probably costs quite abit more than it should have done

Khornate25 wrote:Not sure if trolling (maybe, maybe not, anyway it's to late), but I have another thread where I explain my problem with much more details :

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/446104.page

So you started 2 threads about the same thing? and are promoting cross-replying in one?

Ryoko wrote:Warhammer isnt in a great place at the moment to be honest

Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:

Khornate25 wrote:Not sure if trolling (maybe, maybe not, anyway it's to late), but I have another thread where I explain my problem with much more details :

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/446104.page

So you started 2 threads about the same thing? and are promoting cross-replying in one?

Ryoko wrote:Warhammer isnt in a great place at the moment to be honest

Hey, I said it was to late. When I realised what I've done, was to late. Nothin I think I could do.

I got (re)interested in 40K some years ago but I quickly grew bored of it. I actually like the fluff a lot more than WFHB with the whole undying emperor thing and zealot-like SM and robotic Orks and such.

But the rules are pretty...wild, for lack of a better term. If you read the rules of any codex and start putting your head around different concepts, any place they could make it over-the-top they did.

If WHFB is a beer and pretzels game, 40K is a Coke and happy meal game. There's nothing wrong with that, as long as you know what you're getting into.

I feel that the term Competitive WHFB carries alot more weight than Competitive 40k.

Yes Lizardmen and WOC are strong books but they still have good counters that can be pulled from every book to their internet builds.

DukeRustfield wrote:If WHFB is a beer and pretzels game, 40K is a Coke and happy meal game.

can I steal that for my sig?

DukeRustfield wrote:
If WHFB is a beer and pretzels game, 40K is a Coke and happy meal game. There's nothing wrong with that, as long as you know what you're getting into.

So hillariously true

So if WHFB is beer and pretzels and 40k is coke and happy meal, what's Warhmahordes, Infinity, and Malifaux? Flames of War? Dust Tactics?

I think Infinity would be red wine and a steak salad with balsamic vinaigrette. That game is incredibly complex, nuanced, and tactical... to the point that, although I like it a lot, it's not always what I want to play.

Warmahordes is a little less delicate, but still pretty meaty. I might put it into the same category as WHFB. Maybe "beer and hot wings" instead, since there's the focus on brutal combat between giant monsters/robots?

I don't play any of the others, so I can't speak to their metaphors.

Dust tactics is like hamburger helper and light beer. Cheap and filling but no one really wants it as their first choice.

Flames of war is like haggis. A tradition food that some people really like

So if I understand what people are suggesting me here, it's to finish my Warmachine army, each chicken wing and drink beer, then later on make my WHFB army once the game has finished to balance itself completely (which is what it is doing), and to stay away from W40k for a long time ? Ok with me

The game is balanced now. People who cry cheese with the 7th ed books dont know how to play a good hard game of warhammer IMO

Khornate25 wrote:So if I understand what people are suggesting me here, it's to finish my Warmachine army, each chicken wing and drink beer, then later on make my WHFB army once the game has finished to balance itself completely (which is what it is doing), and to stay away from W40k for a long time ? Ok with me

I would say that is a fairly sensible way to look at it in terms of stability however if you want one of the armies with an 8th edition book already out then time wont really matter too much, the tactical differences some armies either gained or lost from the switch to 8th edition isnt a make or break thing, its still really workable, just a few points cost issues need to be sorted here or there, nothing major.

Johnny-Crass wrote:The game is balanced now. People who cry cheese with the 7th ed books dont know how to play a good hard game of warhammer IMO

I agree, there are a lot of people who think they're gonna start winning when an 8th edition book comes around for their army, not gonna happen, slightly changed rules doesnt fix bad playstyle or a bad army list.

Dust tactics and dust warfare are awesome games. They catch a lot of flak from other games fanboys. Truth is that the genre of the game is a small niche market, you either like the idea or you don't.

They are very addicting games that have a mechanic unlike most of the other games you will find.

ElectricPaladin wrote:So if WHFB is beer and pretzels and 40k is coke and happy meal, what's Warhmahordes, Infinity, and Malifaux? Flames of War? Dust Tactics?

I don't know those games.

can I steal that for my sig?

Sure. :p

I think WHFB, for having as many units and and as many armies as it has, is unbelievably balanced. Probably more than a few people here play online MMOs and think how hard it is to balance like 6 classes let alone a dozen armies. Part of the way they did it was by having the categories of Hero/Core/Special/Rare and unit types Infantry/Cavalry/Charriot/MI/etc. So within categories it's a lot easier to balance, as opposed to trying to balancing a Rogue with a Wizard, which is really hard unless you give them the same abilities with different names.

ElectricPaladin wrote:So if WHFB is beer and pretzels and 40k is coke and happy meal, what's Warhmahordes, Infinity, and Malifaux? Flames of War? Dust Tactics?

I think Infinity would be red wine and a steak salad with balsamic vinaigrette. That game is incredibly complex, nuanced, and tactical... to the point that, although I like it a lot, it's not always what I want to play.

Warmahordes is a little less delicate, but still pretty meaty. I might put it into the same category as WHFB. Maybe "beer and hot wings" instead, since there's the focus on brutal combat between giant monsters/robots?

I don't play any of the others, so I can't speak to their metaphors.

Johnny-Crass wrote:Dust tactics is like hamburger helper and light beer. Cheap and filling but no one really wants it as their first choice.

Flames of war is like haggis. A tradition food that some people really like

well, he can correct me if i'm wrong, but I think Duke was using those metaphors more in regards to the relations to the players (adults drink beer and eat pretzels casually. kids eat happy meals as serious business), not the game itself and its meal complexity comparison. ...but I've been wrong before...

I meant both.

WHFB is obviously not chess. You can get pretty mathematical about it but there's not going to be college dissertations on the "Guttstar-Left-MG3 Viability in a Post-Xerces Landscape."

By its nature and ruleset it is rather casual. The game itself says as much. You can totally go hyper-competitive with it, but you can go hyper-competitive playing rock-paper-scissors. 40K, IMHO, by its nature and ruleset is even more casual.

As someone listed above, those who go competitive with it, end up doing pretty much the same stuff, which excludes like 80% of the game content. And yeah, they tend to be younger players, and because of that, I think GW tailored the rules to that base--they'd be stupid if they didn't.

DukeRustfield wrote:
40K, IMHO, by its nature and ruleset is even more casual.

funny thing, is you should be right. But from my experiences, and the higher numbers of tournaments/list analysis, etc, the 40k scene is waaaaaay less casual than WHFB. But, that's due to the players, not the game mechanics.

Justin Bieber has more written about him (currently) than Mozart. That doesn't mean he's better. 40K is more popular because it's geared to younger people and younger people play more games more often per capita.

I'm talking looking at it from an adult perspective. You can be hypercompetitive about anything. But when you're dealing with such a loose, aka unbalanced, system people are all going to have to play the same way if they want a chance against their competitive peers. Which in 40K they pretty much do.

So sure, you can take it totally seriously. Just like you could take playing darts against a blind person seriously. But hopefully most adults would know going in that's not especially fair and they should probably not take it very seriously.

WHFB is much more balanced, than 40k. So you will not experience the same amount of cheese spam. The armies are quite similary matched. And yes WoC are a great choice for a starter army.

Trondheim wrote:WHFB is much more balanced, than 40k. So you will not experience the same amount of cheese spam. The armies are quite similary matched. And yes WoC are a great choice for a starter army.

I like hearing balanced, but everywhere else I keep hearing "The game is unbalanced because of magiiic!"

at least some of those people in other threads do. I just love popping off my spells.