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After spending time this past weekend at Adepticon, playing in the Team Tournament and paying close attention to the championship I have come to the conclusion that vanilla marines simply are not competitive anymore on the tournament circuit. While cheap TH/SS Terminators, Null-Zone, and Combat Tactics are great they just dont seem to stake up against Wolves, Angels, Grey Knights, or Necrons.

What does Dakka think? I understand and DO believe in the idea that player trumps army, but playing an uphill battle every match is just painful. Does Dakka believe there is still a competitive edge left to the Vanilla marines? If so, what sort of list would you see?

vanilla marines are still on the upper half of the power curve, they are just closer to the center than the top

imo you've got

space wolves
grey knights
blood angels
necrons
imp guard
dark eldar
vanilla marines
orks
tyranids
black templar
sisters of battle
eldar
dark angels
chaos marines
chaos demons
tau

granted thats just my opinion but I'd put them at 7th of 16 in terms of potential power, there are worse places to be

Well as a player that uses 3 thunderfire cannons and sprinkles in good amounts of anti tank, I can tell you that my FLGS I'm feared. We got the normal bandwagon crowd and veteran players.

The thing is codex marines is a shooting army. Don't try to do anything else with them. Those who try to melee are the ones who says it's weak.

juraigamer wrote:Well as a player that uses 3 thunderfire cannons and sprinkles in good amounts of anti tank, I can tell you that my FLGS I'm feared. We got the normal bandwagon crowd and veteran players.

The thing is codex marines is a shooting army. Don't try to do anything else with them. Those who try to melee are the ones who says it's weak.

I agree that the Thunderfire Cannons are amazing, I always run at least 1 in my army. However, with the appearance of 2-3 Psybolt Riflemen in 3-4 out of at least 5 Grey Knight armies I see at my FLGS monthly tournament I'm starting to see them as just too fragile.

You're thinking about the cannons in the wrong way. They are weak, so protect them. How?

Drop pods with ironclads was my answer. First turn I drop two of the buggers in the front of my enemy and say "pick your target" Sometimes I add in two las razorbacks as well and/or landspeeders.

Deployment can save you as well, get a feel for the dreads range and then minimize how many can shoot you.

Furthermore, if you only run 1, it's an easy target. You need 3.

You can also place the TFC in cover, particularly a Bolstered ruin, and it becomes pretty durable.

In a bolstered ruin it will have a 3+ cover. And its the very bolster from the techmarine that is manning it.

@Grey Templar: You only get a 3+ when the shot hits the techmarine, otherwise, it is 4+ just as normal. That means 2/3 of the times, it will be only 4+.

@juraigamer: 3TFC + 2Ironclad in Pods? That's 500 pts right there. I can see how that would go against a 500 pts of SW (1 GH + 2 LF). You probably kill 1 LF due it spreading out on your shoosting phase. GH pops both Ironclad with meltaguns then charge and kill it off with powerfists.

For each LF squad, 3 will hit, 2 will wound, 1 will go through your 4+ save of the cannon => poof.

If the cannon is inside the ruin, it will get the 3+

Artillery units are often overlooked as they aren't often used. I know that I have recently been changing up my battlewagon spam for a few units of big guns. They really tear gak up. Thunderfire cannons are such an awesome model, I think they can be very effective if used correctly.

@d-usa: Nope: cannon (the gun model of an artillery unit) is a vehicle and thus only get 3+ in the special case of in-one-facing-firing-at-another. But if the cannon cannot see the target from its facing, it cannot shoot. Both the TM and the cannon has to be able to see the target to shoot.

See Page 55 under "The Unit"

gpfunk wrote:Artillery units are often overlooked as they aren't often used. I know that I have recently been changing up my battlewagon spam for a few units of big guns. They really tear gak up. Thunderfire cannons are such an awesome model, I think they can be very effective if used correctly.

runing kannonz on BW is awesome, the template counts as a defensive weapon due to str 4, I try to run 1 kannon 2 big shootas (for eating wepaon destorys and surviving attempts to pop my bw before it gets dropped. usually people even pick bs oer kannon as they see the str4 template to be less threatenening than 3 str 5 shots but ymmv

Actually, Artillery follows both the rules for units and vehicles.

it is often played wrong, but vehicles get the same cover save as the terrain giving the cover.


So the TFC is part of a unit, 50% of the unit is in cover and so benifits from cover. This cover gives a 3+ save, so the TFC gets a 3+ cover safe.

I like to stick my sniper scouts with the cannon as well. 2+ cover saves makes them very durable.

@Grey Templar: I humbly disagree. The cannon is part of the unit so it is always getting a cover save. What kind of save it has depends on the unit type and stat. Since it is a vehicle, area terrain doesn't confer save. It has to be obscured. And even if it does, it only get a 4+ save.

Just like you can have a model with 2+ armour save and a 3+ armour save. They both have armour save but if you choose/have to take a wound on the 3+ model, you roll on a 3+.

@d-usa: I also would like to kindly inform you that this is illegal. The TFC is not an independent character until the cannon is destroyed and thus scouts or any other squads cannot join them.

They don't have to join them. The techmarine bolsters a ruin. Multiple units can be inside the ruin, which has nothing to do with units joining each other.

Ah, I see. I read from your wordings i.e. "stick with" and thought that you join them in. Yes, I do that as well, too bad they can't take ablative wounds for my cannon. Usually one round of firing from 2 Heavy Support unit will kill off my TFC :( and then my scouts will sit there looking pretty.

Just read through the BRB and everything I see makes it look like the TFC would get the 3+ save as long as it is at least 50% obscured, just like any other vehicle.

Pg 62
If the target is obscured and suffers a glancing or penetrating hit, it may take a cover save against it, exactly like a non-vehicle model would do against a wound (for example, a save of 5+ for a hedge, 4+ for a building, 3+ for a fortification, and so on)

\

d-usa wrote:Just read through the BRB and everything I see makes it look like the TFC would get the 3+ save as long as it is at least 50% obscured, just like any other vehicle.

Pg 62
If the target is obscured and suffers a glancing or penetrating hit, it may take a cover save against it, exactly like a non-vehicle model would do against a wound (for example, a save of 5+ for a hedge, 4+ for a building, 3+ for a fortification, and so on)

\

I wasn't aware anyone suggested otherwise. Anyone in a bolstered ruin gets a 3+ cover save, it's pretty simple.
I've faught against a marine army with 2 TFCs in bolstered ruins before. A pain in the arse turn 1 and 2, but they still die pretty easily. Also pretty inneffective against mech armies.

Joey wrote:

d-usa wrote:Just read through the BRB and everything I see makes it look like the TFC would get the 3+ save as long as it is at least 50% obscured, just like any other vehicle.

Pg 62
If the target is obscured and suffers a glancing or penetrating hit, it may take a cover save against it, exactly like a non-vehicle model would do against a wound (for example, a save of 5+ for a hedge, 4+ for a building, 3+ for a fortification, and so on)

\

I wasn't aware anyone suggested otherwise. Anyone in a bolstered ruin gets a 3+ cover save, it's pretty simple.
I've faught against a marine army with 2 TFCs in bolstered ruins before. A pain in the arse turn 1 and 2, but they still die pretty easily. Also pretty inneffective against mech armies.

It was suggested otherwise here:

leohart wrote:@Grey Templar: I humbly disagree. The cannon is part of the unit so it is always getting a cover save. What kind of save it has depends on the unit type and stat. Since it is a vehicle, area terrain doesn't confer save. It has to be obscured. And even if it does, it only get a 4+ save.

Crimthaan wrote:What does Dakka think? I understand and DO believe in the idea that player trumps army, but playing an uphill battle every match is just painful. Does Dakka believe there is still a competitive edge left to the Vanilla marines? If so, what sort of list would you see?

Vanilla marines can still run 3 builds that are decent.

* Vulcan
* Shrike w/fleeting, infiltrating termies
* C:SM bikes

The problem is that these are decent lists, and decent does not hold up to power lists like GK. That's why you will face uphill battles at highly competitive tournaments with a C:SM list.

Or you can run a Pedro Sterguard DP list, with Marines in RB's.

It's so much fun to have that much anti tank.

@d-usa and @Joey: I duly re-read the rulebook, page 62 and I believe I was wrong. Vehicle does get the benefit of the cover save of buildings as long as it is obscured. Thank to the TM, it is always 3+ save then.

leohart wrote:@d-usa and @Joey: I duly re-read the rulebook, page 62 and I believe I was wrong. Vehicle does get the benefit of the cover save of buildings as long as it is obscured. Thank to the TM, it is always 3+ save then.

Bravo for being big enough to come back on here and make this statement. A lot of folks on the forums could learn from you.

indeed, I salute you

Lots of people make mistakes. Hell I wouldn't be playing the game properly if it weren't for dakka. People who're decent enough to admit their mistakes are more common than you'd think.

Yeah, but few will be man enough to admit it on the internet

I think the anonimity inflates people's ego massivly.

labmouse42 wrote:

Crimthaan wrote:What does Dakka think? I understand and DO believe in the idea that player trumps army, but playing an uphill battle every match is just painful. Does Dakka believe there is still a competitive edge left to the Vanilla marines? If so, what sort of list would you see?

Vanilla marines can still run 3 builds that are decent.

* Vulcan
* Shrike w/fleeting, infiltrating termies
* C:SM bikes

The problem is that these are decent lists, and decent does not hold up to power lists like GK. That's why you will face uphill battles at highly competitive tournaments with a C:SM list.

IMO you are off here. Bike lists and shrike lists are fun but I would say they are not tournament winning lists. Those 2 can do quite well at the FLAG level because they are rare and there is a big inexerienced factor working for them. If you know what those 2 armies are cabable of, strong lists with the right tactics will crush them (which is what you fill find in the top 3rd of a GT). If you haven't seen those 2 or don't appriciate what they can do your in trouble. However there are two really competative builds you are missing. Pure shooting SM are very good. the vanilla dex gives access to really good cheap shooting of each type (light armour, heavy armour, MEQ killing, hoard killing) with enough points to have redundancy. With a list like that you just need to know what you are going to be really competative. thunderbubble / counter assualt armies are also very competative. Again you need to know what you are doing but those armies can and have won major tournaments. they can also definetly handle the GK power builds, but these games are usually decided (though not always) while the armies are in the 48-24' phase of the game.

Grey Templar wrote:Yeah, but few will be man enough to admit it on the internet

I think the anonimity inflates people's ego massivly.

I admit it all the time and I'm a massive dick. People are complicated I suspect a lot of internet die-hards get pushed around a lot in their lives.

Joey wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Yeah, but few will be man enough to admit it on the internet

I think the anonimity inflates people's ego massivly.

I admit it all the time and I'm a massive dick. People are complicated I suspect a lot of internet die-hards get pushed around a lot in their lives.

QFT

the interwebs make it so easy to be a "tough guy" when you know there are few if any repercussions

this is why we should salute those who have the brass buttons to come out and admit they were wrong.

Also Spess Mehrens bike Lists are very good and i believe still competitive if played by a good player. The problem is that GK BA and SW lists are much more forgiving of the occasional mistake.

Where Deathwing and SM: Bikes are not.

leohart wrote:

@juraigamer: 3TFC + 2Ironclad in Pods? That's 500 pts right there. I can see how that would go against a 500 pts of SW (1 GH + 2 LF). You probably kill 1 LF due it spreading out on your shoosting phase. GH pops both Ironclad with meltaguns then charge and kill it off with powerfists.

For each LF squad, 3 will hit, 2 will wound, 1 will go through your 4+ save of the cannon => poof.

Well if we want to mathhammer it, 3 will hit, 2 will hit the cannon one will hit the techmarine, the cannon needs to be glanced so any rolls of a 1 won't do crap, and then the techmarine has his 2+, and the cannon has it's 3+. That's assuming they wolves want to waste missiles on the cannons when there's 2 ironclads in their face, and meltas miss, plus cover saves happen. You can't seriously think about trying to kill an ironclad with a str 8 powerfist btw.

Assuming the vanilla player loses 1 cannon and 1 ironclad, so long as he kills a longfang squad with his other dread and blows the bejesus out of the other longfang squad, it's anyone's game.