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So hi, I am a student of philosophy at the University of Montreal (UdeM), Quebec, and after reading a little from the book Possible Worlds, where Lazarus Long and his story is being analyzed, I was wondering what where the implications the warp could have on logic.
So, the materium is the physical world, where laws of physic and times, order and logic are dominant.
The immaterium is the opposite of the materium, the laws of physic, order and logic are nonexistant in it (or inferior).
So if the immaterium is the negative of the materium, it's logical negation, wouldn't it be logic to that anything illogic in the immaterium is logically possible and as such can exist in the immaterium ?
If this can be, however there's a problem.
Some things existing in the warp couldn't exist in the materium, more precisely, the things that are illogical.
So the question is, is the warp only inhabited by illogical things, or is there also logical things ?
The materium is ruled by logic.
So, the immaterium should be only inhabited by illogical things.
So, logically, things from the warp should not be able to come in the materium.
So daemon shouldn't be able to come in the materium.
However, it should be precised that daemons do not really come in the materium.
If I recall correctly, they form themselves a kind of energetic avatar, while their true self stay in the warp (not sure if I recall correctly).
And when their avatar (or host if they possess soemone) is destroyed, they just go back to their true self in the immaterium.
But there is still a problem : Slaanesh.
He has been born at a moment in the materium and in the Immaterium.
Here, we face a complex problem : it is normally impossible to be at two distinct places at the same time, plus, Slaanesh is at the same time never born in the immaterium, and has always been in the immaterium.
The problem can be solved, yet it require a little fantasy I think :
What as been born in the materium is the energetic avatar of Slaanesh, which vanished and went back into the warp directly after the moment of its birth.
In the warp, since the laws of logic do not apply here, Slaanesh was always, has never been, and has been born.
So the solution to all of these logical problems is the existence of an interaction between an illogical world and a logical one.
This interaction would enable an illogical entity to interact and manifest itself in the physical world, but in doing so, submitting itself to the laws of logic and physics of this world.
Yet, how would such an interaction be ?
And does it stand in the domain of the logic or of the illogic ?
Or something in between ?
There is also the problem to consider if the warp could be possible, since it is an illogical world.
However, it is important here to note that this world is illogical because it is the reflection of a loical one.
So, if an illogical world exist because of a logical one, do this make it possible ?
And if the logical world came to be, do the illogical one came to be at the same moment ?
In W40k, we know the warp came later (from the point of view of the materium), because of the old ones.
And if the logical world cease to be, what happen to the illogical one, since it is illogical ?
Can it continue to exist by itself, now that its logical source has stopped to exist ?
Should it be forced to exist, or since it is illogical and as no laws of spce-time, continue to exist ?
So many questions.
What do yo think of it ?

I think you need to seperate your thoughts with line breaks!

As for the Slaanesh problem, he's a god. They break the rules =)

Or do they really ?
Wouldn't it be rather that they bend them to their will ?
In the case of breaking them in an illogical world, in perfectly logical, but in a logical on, he has to play with them (note, I said WITH them, not by them) .
We know for exemple that the Chaos Gods cannot enter the materium because of their nature, and that in some novels, when Daemons are destabilized or damaged, they begin to phase out of the materium, their ''logical'' form failling.
However, the Chaos Gods have shown the ability to influence the materium (Khorne has opened a breach in the sky of a planet to make blood rain).
However, these interventions always appear on world where a daemonic invasion is having place. Most of the time, these invasion are provoked by the possession of a psyker, or a ritual made by heretics.
So in a way, the illogical world need a path to get in, this one being logical but slighty attuned to the illogical (being a psyker, an heretic, etc).
And most of the worlds being invaded do not always stay as such. The invasion just fade back to the warp, but the place is still tainted and attuned to the warp, the daemons being able to return to it.
So this suggest the illogical is capable of letting a taint in the materium, a taint that can serve to bring it back.
Plus, there is the case of the daemons worlds and of the warp storms.
Some of them are litterall permanents, or at leat seem to be. But how could this be ?
How could an illogical phenomena exist permenantly in a logical world ?
Plus, these place are points where the materium and immaterium overlap, so in a way, each of these place are two places. But are they distincts ?
There is also the fact that the immaterium and its entities are born out from the mortal mind and soul, and as such, the reason of being of the illogical world would be the logical one itself, which would then explain why the illogical world can be slighty attuned to the logical one and can access it.
But in a way, it wouldn't be accessing it, but more returning to it in an envelop.

Your basic thesis here has a fundamental flaw, which renders the rest of your questions moot.

The Warp and Realspace are not mirror images of one another, one is not the diametric opposite of the other, so both dimensions can share aspects/contents/whatever.

IRT Slaanesh, specifically, this being was never, and has never been, in Realspace, it's always, and only ever been, an entity in the Warp, comprised of the combined psychic echoes of tens of thousands of years of Eldar decadence.

Psienesis wrote:Your basic thesis here has a fundamental flaw, which renders the rest of your questions moot.

The Warp and Realspace are not mirror images of one another, one is not the diametric opposite of the other, so both dimensions can share aspects/contents/whatever.

IRT Slaanesh, specifically, this being was never, and has never been, in Realspace, it's always, and only ever been, an entity in the Warp, comprised of the combined psychic echoes of tens of thousands of years of Eldar decadence.

I must have misread this thing about Slaanesh . But in a way, there as been a temporal point in realspace which correspond to his ''birth'', wouldn't it be almost the same ?

As for the first point, I understand, but I never really considerated them diametric opposite in totality, just that one is made of ordained matter, and the other one made of chaotic energy. One as laws, the other as none (I think, not sure).
Of course, the warp couldn't be a mirror image of realspace, since it ain't made of moving matter, but of moving energy. The negation I mentioned was more in therms of it's base material if we can call it like that.
I don'T understand the point where you say they can share contents. Could you give me an example ?

I don't think it says anywhere that logic doesn't exist in the warp, only that the laws of physics don't apply and dreams and fears are given form. It still has logic and rules of it's own, it seems. Like a cross between hyperspace and Hell. Also that the entities within it are created and given form by those in realspace. The fluff talks about Gods dying and being born in the warp all the time. Starships travel through it and emerge at some point in the future and not in the past. Also, entities seem to age, and at the same time, some entities can travel at will through time. perhaps it takes more 'power' to do so? power given by psychic energy in realspace?

So from a human's perspective, a god is born in our timeline. apparently that god did not have effects in realspace before that time, and now does as it's power bleeds through the warp, but in the warp, who knows?

You post was TL, so I DR.

But to answer your question, anything can exist in the Warp. It doesn't play by anyones rules.

Meade wrote:I don't think it says anywhere that logic doesn't exist in the warp, only that the laws of physics don't apply and dreams and fears are given form. It still has logic and rules of it's own, it seems. Like a cross between hyperspace and Hell. Also that the entities within it are created and given form by those in realspace. The fluff talks about Gods dying and being born in the warp all the time. Starships travel through it and emerge at some point in the future and not in the past. Also, entities seem to age, and at the same time, some entities can travel at will through time. perhaps it takes more 'power' to do so? power given by psychic energy in realspace?

So from a human's perspective, a god is born in our timeline. apparently that god did not have effects in realspace before that time, and now does as it's power bleeds through the warp, but in the warp, who knows?

On this point you are quite right : nowhere is it written it is an illogical place. However, what enable me to say it is as such is the fact that it is wirtten (in the codex of Daemons of Chaos) that Slaanesh in the warp came to be, but at the same time as always been, in the warp.
But how can you come to be in the warp, and at the same time, have always been ? In formal logic, this would be a contradiction, and as such, illogical.
The fact that no laws of physics govern the warp could at first seem to imply nothing illogical.
BUT!
We must remember that physic is about time and space.
If Slaanesh came to be, but also always has been, and that it is illogical, and that this phenomenon is enabled because there is a lack of physical la about time in the warp, then this lack of physical law is illogical.
The basic of an illogical thing : if a A is a something and at the same time its contrary, then it is illogical.
As so, the laws of physics of a world (whatever they are) are extremely important to determine if something is logical or not.
Let's take this example :
John is flying.
This statement is logical.
Now let combine it with another statement, to make a complex statement :
John is flying, and at the same time, not flying.
This statement is illogical, and this regardless of whatever flying mean in the physical sense.
Now let's use the Slaanesh sentence :
Slaanesh came to be at a temporal moment, and never came to be (because he has always been temporally)
This is a contradiction from the point of view of our concept of logic.
And from our understanding of physic.

However, you point something really important here : the warp has rules of it's own. But are these rules logical ? The Slaanesh case would seem to say otherwise, but I shouldn't not draw conclusions so quickly.

Oh dear Khorne, your poor zerker is tired, gonna go dream about chopping marines headz and then I'll think about this tomorrow morning.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kaldor wrote:You post was TL, so I DR.

But to answer your question, anything can exist in the Warp. It doesn't play by anyones rules.

Yes, this if of course perfectly acceptable. But can the warp exist itself ? I mean, as part of the possibles worlds ?

You see, there are those category :

The actual world : Our world. It is actual and it is a possible world.
The possibles worlds : The worlds that have no contradictions. They could exist somewhere else if given the chance, because they have no contradictions.
The impossible worlds : The worlds which imply some contradiction, which by itself destroy the world hosting it. Like me being and not being at the same time.

The idea is that the warp is a sub-world. In itself, this world is full of contradictions, but these contradictions are logical since this world is the illogical counterpart of the realspace.
So the real question is : can the world of W40k, where there is a logic sub-world and an illogic one (born of the first one), be possible ?

Are you seriously asking if the 40k is really possible? I'm not even going to list the things that are just impossible no matter how technology advances.

I don't think the warp as it is described in 40k can exist. This being a parallel dimension which would house immaterial demons, not to mention being made of pure energy. Let me just reiterate that: pure energy.

The only physical explanation, for a universe built of pure energy would be that the universe underwent heat death, that is all possible work was done and left the universe at a single constant temperature everywhere. As temperature is equal everywhere, no work can be done and everything is energy. Even this is just a theory and though it fits having the current knowledge we have of physics, if it did happen it would happen in a ridiculous amount of time into the future.

As for the warp being pure energy, inhabited by demons who are affected by the emotions of living creatures in the materium, well that's all fine and dandy science fiction. Lets not mention the fact that the warp allows material craft to travel immense distances in very little time, or even leap into the past or future. From a philosophical point of view, maybe it can exist, but it definately can't from a physics point of view. That is until someone proves a whole lot of theories wrong...

Lord Rogukiel wrote:Are you seriously asking if the 40k is really possible? I'm not even going to list the things that are just impossible no matter how technology advances.

I don't think the warp as it is described in 40k can exist. This being a parallel dimension which would house immaterial demons, not to mention being made of pure energy. Let me just reiterate that: pure energy.

The only physical explanation, for a universe built of pure energy would be that the universe underwent heat death, that is all possible work was done and left the universe at a single constant temperature everywhere. As temperature is equal everywhere, no work can be done and everything is energy. Even this is just a theory and though it fits having the current knowledge we have of physics, if it did happen it would happen in a ridiculous amount of time into the future.

As for the warp being pure energy, inhabited by demons who are affected by the emotions of living creatures in the materium, well that's all fine and dandy science fiction. Lets not mention the fact that the warp allows material craft to travel immense distances in very little time, or even leap into the past or future. From a philosophical point of view, maybe it can exist, but it definately can't from a physics point of view. That is until someone proves a whole lot of theories wrong...

Of course it ain't possible from the point of view of our physical laws. What I ment was is it possible conceptually from a world, according to its own physical laws, to house a logical sub-world and an illogical sub-world at the same time and this without provoking a contradiction that would make such a world invalid it iselft. When

When dealing with the question of possible world, you must not stop at such details like their inner physics and try to compare them to ours. Our world is the actual one. Now we're talking about possible non-actual world. Their inner working are theirs, ours are ours.

What we are seeking is to see if there's an inherent conceptual contradiction in such a world, making this one impossible.

Let's use this example :

In the world of John, electrons are positively charged.

Of course, according to our physic, this is impossible. But this ain't about our physic. It is about the physic of the world of John. So this is possible in the world of John.

Now, let's say that in John's world, like in our own, being negatively charged is the contrary of being positively charged.

Now let's say :

In the world of John, electrons are positively charged, and at the same exact time negatively charged.

So this world, regardless of physics, is by definition impossible, since there is a thing that is something and at the same tme its contrary.

Let's take a more abstract example :

In the world of John, all toads talk and are telling the truth, but at the same time are always lying.

That would be an impossible world. Since toads are always telling something and its contrary at the same time.

Khornate25 wrote:

Lord Rogukiel wrote:Are you seriously asking if the 40k is really possible? I'm not even going to list the things that are just impossible no matter how technology advances.

I don't think the warp as it is described in 40k can exist. This being a parallel dimension which would house immaterial demons, not to mention being made of pure energy. Let me just reiterate that: pure energy.

The only physical explanation, for a universe built of pure energy would be that the universe underwent heat death, that is all possible work was done and left the universe at a single constant temperature everywhere. As temperature is equal everywhere, no work can be done and everything is energy. Even this is just a theory and though it fits having the current knowledge we have of physics, if it did happen it would happen in a ridiculous amount of time into the future.

As for the warp being pure energy, inhabited by demons who are affected by the emotions of living creatures in the materium, well that's all fine and dandy science fiction. Lets not mention the fact that the warp allows material craft to travel immense distances in very little time, or even leap into the past or future. From a philosophical point of view, maybe it can exist, but it definately can't from a physics point of view. That is until someone proves a whole lot of theories wrong...

Of course it ain't possible from the point of view of our physical laws. What I ment was is it possible conceptually from a world, according to its own physical laws, to house a logical sub-world and an illogical sub-world at the same time and this without provoking a contradiction that would make such a world invalid it iselft. When

When dealing with the question of possible world, you must not stop at such details like their inner physics and try to compare them to ours. Our world is the actual one. Now we're talking about possible non-actual world. Their inner working are theirs, ours are ours.

What we are seeking is to see if there's an inherent conceptual contradiction in such a world, making this one impossible.

Let's use this example :

In the world of John, electrons are positively charged.

Of course, according to our physic, this is impossible. But this ain't about our physic. It is about the physic of the world of John. So this is possible in the world of John.

Now, let's say that in John's world, like in our own, being negatively charged is the contrary of being positively charged.

Now let's say :

In the world of John, electrons are positively charged, and at the same exact time negatively charged.

So this world, regardless of physics, is by definition impossible, since there is a thing that is something and at the same tme its contrary.

Let's take a more abstract example :

In the world of John, all toads talk and are telling the truth, but at the same time are always lying.

That would be an impossible world. Since toads are always telling something and its contrary at the same time.

Just to thrown a wrench in the works, there is such a thing as a Positron or, 'anti-electron'. These things are part of our Universe so the distinction is far deeper than an opposite reality in the Warp. These terms simply do not apply when describing the differences between our reality and the reality of the 40k universe.

Uhlan wrote:Just to thrown a wrench in the works, there is such a thing as a Positron or, 'anti-electron'. These things are part of our Universe so the distinction is far deeper than an opposite reality in the Warp. These terms simply do not apply when describing the differences between our reality and the reality of the 40k universe.

Exaclty. Opposites exist in our world, in fact anti-matter itself exists, in very small quantities but it exists. Does that make our world impossible? I'd hope not, because then we'd all be asleep in the Matrix and the machines would have gotten something wrong. Anyway, the warp cannot be the exact opposite of the materium because it takes into account events of the materium; The obvious example is the birth of Slaanesh.

The eldar were feeling depraved and had all those nasty notions going through their psychically active brains and this spanwed Slaanesh, which represents their depravity to an extreme level. No where is it the opposite of what caused it to spawn.

Of course, you can always say that seeing as we don't know much about alternate universes, anything is possible, but that's hardly an argument. I don't think their exists such a fundamental paradox in the 40k universe rendering it completely impossible. Putting physics aside, I think the flaw in your reasoning is that you are considering the warp to be opposite to the materium, but that is false.

The warp responds to the emotions of the material world and exaggerates the negative feelings that already exists. Therefore it cannot be the opposite of the material world.

Lord Rogukiel wrote:

Uhlan wrote:Just to thrown a wrench in the works, there is such a thing as a Positron or, 'anti-electron'. These things are part of our Universe so the distinction is far deeper than an opposite reality in the Warp. These terms simply do not apply when describing the differences between our reality and the reality of the 40k universe.

Exaclty. Opposites exist in our world, in fact anti-matter itself exists, in very small quantities but it exists. Does that make our world impossible? I'd hope not, because then we'd all be asleep in the Matrix and the machines would have gotten something wrong. Anyway, the warp cannot be the exact opposite of the materium because it takes into account events of the materium; The obvious example is the birth of Slaanesh.

The eldar were feeling depraved and had all those nasty notions going through their psychically active brains and this spanwed Slaanesh, which represents their depravity to an extreme level. No where is it the opposite of what caused it to spawn.

Of course, you can always say that seeing as we don't know much about alternate universes, anything is possible, but that's hardly an argument. I don't think their exists such a fundamental paradox in the 40k universe rendering it completely impossible. Putting physics aside, I think the flaw in your reasoning is that you are considering the warp to be opposite to the materium, but that is false.

The warp responds to the emotions of the material world and exaggerates the negative feelings that already exists. Therefore it cannot be the opposite of the material world.

My interpretation of the Warp is that it is not necessarily even an alternate reality as the Warp is an expression of emotion and intrinsically related to the material universe. One cannot exist without the other apparently. Therefore, the Warp is part of the the 40k universe and is as 'real' as anything else... just like an electron.

The Warp is an expression of a kind of dream state. In our dreams, we can fundamentally defy the laws of physics and for all intents and purposes, our dreams are as real as anything else to us at the time of the dream and in some cases can cause us physical harm.

The ability of a Psyker to tap or manipulate reality is not unlike what we do in our dreams. The key difference being that the 'dream reality' exerts sustained direct physical influence.

This has been my understanding anyway, and while only an opinion, seems to fit the bill as an explanation as well as anything else.

Logic is homo sapien's way of dealing with life in the Great Rift Valley in Ethiopia. Any attempt to use it as more than that is doomed to failure.
Oh wait you're a philosophy student.
Yeah man, it's all like, the vastness of the universe, and they're like, holding it back from us man, because they're like, afraid of us, and they're holding on to control.

Lord Rogukiel wrote:

Uhlan wrote:Just to thrown a wrench in the works, there is such a thing as a Positron or, 'anti-electron'. These things are part of our Universe so the distinction is far deeper than an opposite reality in the Warp. These terms simply do not apply when describing the differences between our reality and the reality of the 40k universe.

Exaclty. Opposites exist in our world, in fact anti-matter itself exists, in very small quantities but it exists. Does that make our world impossible? I'd hope not, because then we'd all be asleep in the Matrix and the machines would have gotten something wrong. Anyway, the warp cannot be the exact opposite of the materium because it takes into account events of the materium; The obvious example is the birth of Slaanesh.

The eldar were feeling depraved and had all those nasty notions going through their psychically active brains and this spanwed Slaanesh, which represents their depravity to an extreme level. No where is it the opposite of what caused it to spawn.

Of course, you can always say that seeing as we don't know much about alternate universes, anything is possible, but that's hardly an argument. I don't think their exists such a fundamental paradox in the 40k universe rendering it completely impossible. Putting physics aside, I think the flaw in your reasoning is that you are considering the warp to be opposite to the materium, but that is false.

The warp responds to the emotions of the material world and exaggerates the negative feelings that already exists. Therefore it cannot be the opposite of the material world.

Oh no that's not what I ment
In a possible world, opposite are quite possibles. It is the fact that a thing cannot be AT THE SAME TIME one thing and it's opposite.
For the thing about the elcetron, I was kinda limited by my knowledge of physic. But let's take another example :

In the world of John, John exist and at the same time do not exist.

Such a world would be impossible, because in it, John is something and at the same time its contrary.

By considering if the world of W40k exist, I ain't considering the warp the contrary of the realspace, there is not the question.
Let's get this out of the picture.
The warp ain'T the diametrical contrary of realspace.
The thing is, the warp is illogical itself.
It is a sub-world where illogical things happen to be.
For example : Slaanesh came to be, but also never came to be because he always existed.
That would be illogical.
Because he would be temporal and eternal at the same time.
Being temporal meaning to have a beginning.
Being eternal (in logic) meaning he always existed and will always exist.
So, the warp is illogical.
However, it exist.
I though I could valid the possibility of such a sub-world by making it something of a parasite or malignous twin of the realspace.
Since realspace is the Order aspect of W40k (in a way)
And that the Warp is the Chaos aspect
I thoguht one was the opposite of the other in terms of ''basics'' fondation.
Order and Chaos.
And since the warp is the result of realspace (it being influenced by the souls of the materium)
I though I could justify the illogic of the warp by making it the logical ''offspring'' of realspace.
So I explained it wrong.
Chaos ain'T the diametrical opposite of realspace.
It's more the offspring of realspace, but being opposite in nature by being chaotic.
I think.
Gonna ask one of my teacher is opinion on all of this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Joey wrote:Logic is homo sapien's way of dealing with life in the Great Rift Valley in Ethiopia. Any attempt to use it as more than that is doomed to failure.
Oh wait you're a philosophy student.
Yeah man, it's all like, the vastness of the universe, and they're like, holding it back from us man, because they're like, afraid of us, and they're holding on to control.

Herh... what ? I'm a philosophy student, not a conspiracy theorist. And the way you have to describe us isn't even correct a explicitly pejorative. Most of us studied natural science at our cegep before getting in philosophy at university.
Don't know if student of philosophy sound like that in the UK, but here it's way more along the lines of Descartes and Kant than Nietzche and Camus.
So stop making fun of philosophy student, we ain't all stoners who believe this stupid conspiracy theories crap, and if you just came here to make fun of me cause I study in a field of study you consider inferior, just get out.
You don't like the subject of this thread ? Make a complaint to a moderator instead of making fun of me and a whole field of study that influenced more than five thousand years of the human race history.

Better: It's a game setting. Logic has been replaced with the Rule of Cool and the Rule of Holys***we'rescrewed.

The Rule of Cool: If it's awesome, it happens. If it would cause awesome things to happen, it exists.

The Rule of Holys***we'rescrewed: The world is a pretty nasty place. If it would make things worse for the protagonists, it exists. If it would screw over the Imperium/Eldar/Tau/galactic civilization in general, it happens.

Khornate25 wrote:[
Oh no that's not what I ment
In a possible world, opposite are quite possibles. It is the fact that a thing cannot be AT THE SAME TIME one thing and it's opposite.
For the thing about the elcetron, I was kinda limited by my knowledge of physic. But let's take another example :

In the world of John, John exist and at the same time do not exist.

Such a world would be impossible, because in it, John is something and at the same time its contrary.

By considering if the world of W40k exist, I ain't considering the warp the contrary of the realspace, there is not the question.
Let's get this out of the picture.
The warp ain'T the diametrical contrary of realspace.
The thing is, the warp is illogical itself.
It is a sub-world where illogical things happen to be.
For example : Slaanesh came to be, but also never came to be because he always existed.
That would be illogical.
Because he would be temporal and eternal at the same time.
Being temporal meaning to have a beginning.
Being eternal (in logic) meaning he always existed and will always exist.
So, the warp is illogical.
However, it exist.
I though I could valid the possibility of such a sub-world by making it something of a parasite or malignous twin of the realspace.
Since realspace is the Order aspect of W40k (in a way)
And that the Warp is the Chaos aspect
I thoguht one was the opposite of the other in terms of ''basics'' fondation.
Order and Chaos.
And since the warp is the result of realspace (it being influenced by the souls of the materium)
I though I could justify the illogic of the warp by making it the logical ''offspring'' of realspace.
So I explained it wrong.
Chaos ain'T the diametrical opposite of realspace.
It's more the offspring of realspace, but being opposite in nature by being chaotic.
I think.
Gonna ask one of my teacher is opinion on all of this.

Where is the fluff saying that Slaanesh always existed? You say that the warp is illogical but I don't believe so. We both agree that the warp exists due to a logical interaction with the materium, through souls (if such a thing exists) and emotions. Very well.

But does that make the warp illogical? I find no evident paradox that would render the warp completely illogical, like being in two places at once. If you do have a paradox beyond examples made for the sake of reasoning, then you win the argument and I accept that the warp is a giant illogical paradox. But I don't recall ever seeing one, and just claiming that the warp is illogical doesn't count. Sure it is chaotic (in the proper sense of the term) with very weird physics and complete anarchy, but there still exists logic.

There's even a "social" hierarchy. Lesser demons are at the bottom, demon princes rule worlds, and then the chaos gods sit on everyone. I know this is greatly simplified, but its just a demonstration that the warp is not illogical.