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I know, I know, the general consensus is that Doomsday Arks are terrible - and I've never understood this. Let's take a look at the pros and cons, shall we?

Pros:
Tough as Nails
The Doomsday Ark is AV 13 (via Quantum Shielding). Not much can get through that, and the gun's incredible range means your Ark will be sitting well away from melta and haywire weapons. You still need to watch out for lascannons and krak missiles, but when DON'T you?

Varied Armaments
The Doomsday Cannon is great at punching through almost anything - heck, the SMALL blast still one shots a MEQ. The Gauss Flayer Arrays seem superfluous, but they're handy to have if you get your big gun destroyed.

A Serious Threat
These bad boys are a fantastic psychological deterrent, one that your opponent cannot afford to ignore. As resilient as the Ark is, he'll likely have to waste a full turn or two of firepower to bring this mobile weapon platform down.

Cons:
A Hefty Investment
A Doomsday Ark doesn't come cheap at 175 points a model, and frankly, they work better with other Arks. You need to sink a lot of points into them if you want to use them effectively.

A Fatal Flaw:
From a business standpoint, I can see why GW chose to recycle the Ghost Ark model for the Doomsday Ark. From a practical standpoint, WHY? I refuse to believe that a race of nihilistic zombie robots from spaaaace would introduce glaring design flaws into their technology. Making their Doomsday Arks (and Triarch Stalkers, for that matter) Open-Topped confers no benefit. Does the driver need to feel the wind caressing his cold, metal chassis? Seriously now.

Cover!
Setting up LOS for the Doomsday Ark can be a pain, since it's relatively easy to hide from one of these guns, but read my thoughts below.

I recently had a chance to use an army list consisting of three (3!) of these nasties in a couple of games versus Spess Mahreens. Here are my observations:

The Gun Is More Accurate Than It Looks:
Let's have some fun with math, shall we? With statistically perfect dice, you'll roll a literal bulls-eye 33% of the time. With a BS of 4, you'll roll a practical bulls-eye for 33% of the remaining 66% (rolling a 4 or less on scatter), bringing your total hit ratio to 55%. You'll also roll insignificant scatter (5 or 6 on the scatter die for a total scatter of 1 to 2 inches) 11% of the time, for a grand total of a 66% hit chance - statistically equal to a straight 3+. (Note: please feel free to correct my math, I'm not a math major). This was backed up in my experiences playing those games - there were less than a handful of instances where I scattered in a way that caused a miss, and at no time did I hit my own units with a scatter roll.

Arks Benefit - HUGELY - With Friends:
It's pretty easy to take cover from one Doomsday Ark. When you have two or three operating at once and monitoring different approaches, it becomes substantially more difficult - it's almost impossible to hide from them all when they're set up correctly. With overlapping fields of fire, Doomsday Arks can tear enemy squads to shreds - in my second game, my opponent DS'ed a squad of Terminators near my objective. After two Doomsday Cannon salvos, only one Terminator remained, quickly mopped up by Gauss Flayer fire.

Keeping the Pressure On is Key
In my own games, my opponents never had an opportunity to bring their firepower against my Arks - he was too busy dealing with my Scarabs, Wraiths, and Catacomb Command Barges, wreaking havoc among his lines. With my Scarabs and CCBs hunting enemy vehicles and my Wraiths tying up Assault Marines (1st game) and secondary Terminator squad (2nd game), I was able to kick back and snipe with my mini Death Star lasers.

So those are my thoughts on the matter. The Doomsday Arks performed well for me, and while I was rolling consistently well in both games, I feel that didn't have much impact on their performance overall. What do you guys think?

For those interested, here is the list I used, in spoiler form:


Edit: Forgot to include the word "open-topped" in the second con.

I don't play Necrons, but if I did then I don't see why one wouldn't run 2-3 Doomsday Arks on top of high cover and just blast away. Is it just a case of being outclassed by the other HS choices?

@ Andilus, most necron players love the annihilation arks more than any other HS, whith good reason, its 90pts, glances vehicles into comas and rips infantry a new one(even hurts armor saves of 2+ trough sheer number of shots) But like Prince, I prefer the Doomarks, my list has two and a Monolith(in a DA+++M+++DA formation) Nothing is more necron than nigh-unkillable constructs of doom

Doomsday Arks are just so expensive, it's hard to fit them into a competitive list.

For 5 more points, you can have Two Abarges, or you can have 3 Spyders for the cost of one.

The Stationary thing is the real killer though.

So is this thread for the Doomsday Ark in particular, or for under-appreciated units in general?

Doomsday Arks can be fantastic, IF the necron player focuses the rest of their fire on any units that may target or attempt to assault the Arks.

It's not that Arks are bad. It's that they compete in that FOC slot against Scarabs and Annihilation Barges, and lose.

1 Doomsday Ark is good, 2 Doomsday arks are too much.

I will always use a stalker with TL guess cannon in my list if I want to use Doomsday Ark. With the TL marker, the Doomsday cannon can be very deadly...but it is unreliable without the TL marker.

I thought I was almost alone in loving this unit. Had a battle recently with my orky friend. Immobilized his truck with a well placed eldritch lance. Nob squad with pain boy and warboss piled out to charge my lines. Boom, said the Ark, leaving one wounded warboss and a lucky nob standing. Warriors quickly mopped them up with well placed rapid fire.

My opinion is that there's no such thing as a bad unit (mostly). Just units that are optimal and suboptimal for your current strat. I'm going heavy on the shooty stuff with my army. Spending points on melee units like scarabs would seem to split my focus too much. No scarabs means no spiders, so plenty of room in the HS slots. Currently filling those out with a couple Annihilation Barges.

You hit on my issue with Necron vehicles right away. Their toughness. It's too easy for a single weapon destroyed result to screw up your game plan. Every necron vehicle (except the Monolith) has this problem... Doomsday Ark, Doomscythe, Annihilation Barge.

Compared to the other choices in that slot, I think that Doomsday Ark just falls short. For the same points, I'd rather take a Spyder squad and add one of their big guns. Then I'd be mobile, spawning scarabs and launching a decent template at whatever is threatening my lines.

My problem with the Arc is that I can kill it turn 1 with my Razorbacks & Dreads. It's so lightly armored and competes for the slot that the locals don't even bother with it.

Chowderhead wrote:My problem with the Arc is that I can kill it turn 1 with my Razorbacks & Dreads. It's so lightly armored and competes for the slot that the locals don't even bother with it.

AV13 is lightly armored?

The AV13 doesn't cover the back, so the only safe place to park it is right at the back of the table.

Then you get fun things like DSing termies or outflanking Wolf Scouts to worry about.

I plan on tryign it at some point, but in small games it strieks me as too much of a point sink to be worth it. if it coudl move 6" and still shoot that would make it more worth whiel. Right now, if it does get caught in CC it is almost guaranteed to die due to auto-hits from it not moving.

How does the Stalker's Targeting Relay ability work with Doomsday Arks?
(with twin linking, can you reroll the scatter die? the distance scattered die?)

Just like any other TL blast, you re-roll the scatter and the two distance dice.

Praxiss wrote:The AV13 doesn't cover the back, so the only safe place to park it is right at the back of the table.

Then you get fun things like DSing termies or outflanking Wolf Scouts to worry about.

What vehicle doesn't have that issue (besides, of course, AV14 all-arounders)?

rigeld2 wrote:AV13 is lightly armored?

If you are playing the game with adequate terrain and against a good player, Doomsday Arks suck.

A large blast isn't going to hit many models unless they are freshly clumped up because their transport popped. Even in that case, they will have cover. Because they are static, it is easy to deploy to make them useless. Blast aren't good against vehicles because they don't have the necessary weight of fire. Did I mention that Annihilation Barges are half as many points and have mobility, the same survivability, and are better against tanks and infantry?

The Anni Barge is my preferrence. It does lack in AT strength but you can't have everything. It is still strong enough to stun-lock most tanks you will see in smaller games.

Plus the kit is cheaper to buy.

as you said, it is easy to maneuver to avoid them. the key is YOU HAVE TO AVOID THEM. a units utility is not just in dmg output but board control. With the threat range on this gun it can be put in one place and not have to move for the entire game while still being a threat. Ghost ark flanks can also protect it, and since you want those for your lance courts it is not even much of an additional investment. even if the shot makes them go to ground it will have taken that unit out for a turn. Also if you have other targets as well it does not become as easy to take it out. If you are running all of these vehicles then investing in two-three spyders with repair might be worth it.

skoffs wrote:How does the Stalker's Targeting Relay ability work with Doomsday Arks?
(with twin linking, can you reroll the scatter die? the distance scattered die?)

Maelstrom808 wrote:Just like any other TL blast, you re-roll the scatter and the two distance dice.

That's not how Twin-linking works on blasts and templates in 5th edition. You get to re-roll the wounds or the penetration dice instead. (BRB pg 31)

As for other "under-appreciated' units... Deathmarks with 1 or 2 Harbingers of Despair... wounding on a 2+ with a template weapon or two is just sick. I just wish that the 'deploy=redeploy' would be cleared up in a FAQ so I don't feel like TFG when I place additional markers.

You are thinking of template Weapons. If a Blast weapon is re-rolled it is the scatter dice (page 30 in the little rule book)

Twin Linked:

template = re-roll wound
blast = re-roll scatter
everything else = re-roll hit

Anpu-adom wrote:

skoffs wrote:How does the Stalker's Targeting Relay ability work with Doomsday Arks?
(with twin linking, can you reroll the scatter die? the distance scattered die?)

Maelstrom808 wrote:Just like any other TL blast, you re-roll the scatter and the two distance dice.

That's not how Twin-linking works on blasts and templates in 5th edition. You get to re-roll the wounds or the penetration dice instead. (BRB pg 31)

As for other "under-appreciated' units... Deathmarks with 1 or 2 Harbingers of Despair... wounding on a 2+ with a template weapon or two is just sick. I just wish that the 'deploy=redeploy' would be cleared up in a FAQ so I don't feel like TFG when I place additional markers.

Thats flame templates, not blast markers. You re-roll the scatter die for blast markers.

So with twin-linking allowing you to reroll scatter die, with two Doomsday Arks and two Heavy Gauss Cannon Stalkers, that would mean...
...
...
*starts working on a new army list*

PrinceOfMadness wrote:
The Gun Is More Accurate Than It Looks:
Let's have some fun with math, shall we? With statistically perfect dice, you'll roll a literal bulls-eye 33% of the time. With a BS of 4, you'll roll a practical bulls-eye for 33% of the remaining 66% (rolling a 4 or less on scatter), bringing your total hit ratio to 55%. You'll also roll insignificant scatter (5 or 6 on the scatter die for a total scatter of 1 to 2 inches) 11% of the time, for a grand total of a 66% hit chance - statistically equal to a straight 3+. (Note: please feel free to correct my math, I'm not a math major). This was backed up in my experiences playing those games - there were less than a handful of instances where I scattered in a way that caused a miss, and at no time did I hit my own units with a scatter roll.

Your numbers are a little off here. There is not a 33% chance of rolling a 4 or less on two dice.

There are 36 total results on a roll of two dice. There are six combinations that result in a roll of 4 or less (1-1, 1-2, 2-1, 1-3, 2-2, 3-1). That means you have a 1/6 chance to reduce your scatter to zero with the adjustment for BS 4, or a 16.7% chance of no net scatter.

skoffs wrote:So with twin-linking allowing you to reroll scatter die, with two Doomsday Arks and two Heavy Gauss Cannon Stalkers, that would mean...
...
...
*starts working on a new army list*

At least you'll have some redundancy built into your list... otherwise a weapon destroyed result would ruin your day. That's 650 points of Elite and HS.

I see where I was wrong before (about rerolling to wound)... GW needs some technical writers... that wasn't exactly clear!

Saldiven wrote:Your numbers are a little off here. There is not a 33% chance of rolling a 4 or less on two dice.

There are 36 total results on a roll of two dice. There are six combinations that result in a roll of 4 or less (1-1, 1-2, 2-1, 1-3, 2-2, 3-1). That means you have a 1/6 chance to reduce your scatter to zero with the adjustment for BS 4, or a 16.7% chance of no net scatter.

After adjusting the math myself, I've determined you're correct! However, you still have a 66.2% chance of a hit after factoring in the insignificant scatter - with nine combinations that result in a roll of 5 or 6 (1-4, 2-3, 3-2, 4-1, 1-5, 2-4, 3-3, 4-2, 5-1), you have a 1/4 chance of insignifcant scatter with the BS4 adjustment, or a 16.5% chance of insignificant scatter. So it still works out to an approximate BS 4 normal ranged attack.

Let's say that you are trying to kill a tank, and need to make sure that the center hole is over the tank. So, let's reroll any result that scatters more than 2" (that's more than a 6) and gives us a 4x4 inch 'kill zone'.

That's 2/6(strikes on the scatter die) + 15/36 (less than a 6 on the combined dice) which means 75% of the time you'll hit our 'kill zone' without rerolling.

Rerolling anything outside our 'kill zone' has the same chances to land in the kill zone, but brings our overall landing percentage to (75% to hit on the first time +(25% miss the first time around * 75% hit the second time)) 93.75%.

Where I agree that weapon destroyed on the stalker sucks, atleast it can attack in melee, doomarks have gauss arrays in case of weapon destroyed, and can cover rear objectives very well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
P.S. I'm not sure why but I have an irrational hatred of the ghost ark, so doomarks all the way!

Exalted Pariah wrote:Where I agree that weapon destroyed on the stalker sucks, atleast it can attack in melee, doomarks have gauss arrays in case of weapon destroyed, and can cover rear objectives very well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
P.S. I'm not sure why but I have an irrational hatred of the ghost ark, so doomarks all the way!

But your opponent gets to choose which weapon gets destroyed... on a Doomsday Ark it's not a hard choice which weapon I'm going to pick... it's not even like you can tank shock somone... at best, you can try to ram at 6" a turn.

Ehh weapon destroyed is a 1 in 6 chance on either chart and if they are getting enough results that it occurs often enough and yet is not destroyed you should count yourself lucky. At that point it can still serve as a shield for your troops or some manor of decoy.

The problem with the weapon destroyed arguement is that it is as likely as a destroyed result on the glancing and less likely on the pen chart. So in my mind not as important to worry about.

Considering the game will start with 2ish turns of night fight for the opponent they have to stay pretty much entirely out of los and the number of reliable av13 tank killer weapons that can move into los or deep strike and still shoot is a short list. That's a huge positional advantage for 3 or 4 turns.

I'd never run 2 or 3 though. You can hide from multiples just as well as 1 and because of the immobility you rarely get to combine firepower you just cover more vision, and the points investment is astronomical.