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Okay, firstly, yes, I know I'm obsessed with the things. XD I know they're expensive, I know they're big targets, I know they're not min-maxed, in terms of points value. I still think they're awesome, I still like them, and personally, even if you don't field one, every serious Space Marine player should have one, if only for aesthetics. We can disagree, but that's how I do things.

Now, on to the actual tactics. You've got three variants. The standard Godhammer Land Raider, with a TL-HB and two TL-LCs; AT=Awesome. Then, the Crusader, trading the TL-LCs for hurricane bolters and extra carrying capacity, and the TL-HB for a TL-AC; more dudes plus more close in dakka. Then, the Redeemer; trades the hurricane bolters for flamestorm cannons for EVEN MORE close in dakka (or BBQ, however you wanna call it. ) Both of the later variants have assault launchers that help support disembarking troops, coming down the assault ramp, which lets them dismount and charge simultaneously.

People, as I see, tend to pick either the Crusader or Redeemer, and the Godhammer gets the short end of the stick, and I always wondered why. Well, I knew why, I just didn't know why, a different time. I'll explain.

Basically, the Godhammer isn't a Crusader or Redeemer. When people see that assault ramp, and the unique ability to carry terminators (unless you wanna drop-pod them one by one, or use their teleport DS, which, as I understand, is fairly unreliable), and immediately think AssTermies. It's a classic strategy, but the reason why the Godhammer gets short shifted is because its weapons don't fit that role. It's made for laying back and popping tanks at ranges of up to four feet, not closing and opening it up to the bane of AV14; cheap, infantry-carried melta. So it's only natural that the Godhammer doesn't get picked as often, right?

Another disclaimer; I am not an expert on ANYTHING, and even if I was, that wouldn't give me the right to actually tell you how to play your army. YMMV

With that said, here's the second 'why'. Put simply, you're doing it wrong. When I think Godhammer Land Raider, I think shooty. For the most part, that's what standard SM is for. Tough, elite, shooty. And that's what the Godhammer is designed for.

So, look at this. You've got two TL-LCs, and the ability to carry twelve Marines or six Terminators. Two super-shooty options; Sternguard, or shooty Termies. Custom ammo that can hit through cover, go superb distances, and tackle tough, armored foes or monsterous creatures, or cyclone missiles, storm bolters, and maybe an AC in there, as well as oodles of powerfists if there is some face-crunching required. Three, actually, if you fill it with Devestators, though I wouldn't sink that many points into HS, and lay them all on one vehicle. Okay, maybe I would. Just for the lols. With PotMS, the Land Raider always gets one more attack than standard, meaning you can ferry your shooters to optimal firing positions, and still keep up the pressure, be it on armor with the TL-LCs, or infantry, with the TL-HB. And if you have Pedro Kantor in your list, kaboom, that Land Raider is now a scoring unit so long as its carrying its cargo, and if you stick him in there with them, they also get a boost to their attacks. Not something I'd do with the devastators, but it makes the Sternguard a workable CC unit, and makes the Termies dynamite, and Dorn's Arrow makes him shooty in his own right.

Just my two cents. Comments, questions, discussion.

I think you can sum everything said here with "armor 14"

TermiesInARaider wrote:With that said, here's the second 'why'. Put simply, you're doing it wrong. When I think Godhammer Land Raider, I think shooty. For the most part, that's what standard SM is for. Tough, elite, shooty. And that's what the Godhammer is designed for.

I'm with you on this. The Godhammer actually makes a rather god main battle tank for a slow, shooting advance. There are better options, sure, but if this is the style you're going for then the Godhammer serves very well indeed. It's also quite a good terror weapon in an army with a large amount of vehicles, drawing fire away from Predators and Razorbacks.

htj wrote:

TermiesInARaider wrote:With that said, here's the second 'why'. Put simply, you're doing it wrong. When I think Godhammer Land Raider, I think shooty. For the most part, that's what standard SM is for. Tough, elite, shooty. And that's what the Godhammer is designed for.

I'm with you on this. The Godhammer actually makes a rather god main battle tank for a slow, shooting advance. There are better options, sure, but if this is the style you're going for then the Godhammer serves very well indeed. It's also quite a good terror weapon in an army with a large amount of vehicles, drawing fire away from Predators and Razorbacks.

That's part of it, yes, but to get the most of it, IMHO, you really need to fill it with more dakka. But thanks. It's nice to know I'm not crazy ALL the time.

Certainly Sternguard make an excellent payload. Dropping them off in a central, covered location will give them a nice 48" bubble of effectiveness. I'd be torn between that and assault termies, but would also consider just popping a tac squad in there to claim objectives once they make it to the front lines.

htj wrote:Certainly Sternguard make an excellent payload. Dropping them off in a central, covered location will give them a nice 48" bubble of effectiveness. I'd be torn between that and assault termies, but would also consider just popping a tac squad in there to claim objectives once they make it to the front lines.

That could definitely also work. Tac squads are nothing to sneeze at, and besides, a lot of people don't wanna dump 250 points on one transport, and THEN fill it with expensive elite units.

In addition, I wouldn't overlook standard terminators. Their firepower is awesome, and their toughness is REDONKULOUS, and they're no slouches in CC, either. With them, you could back the Raider away and take advantage of that range, without needing to worry about them as much.

TermiesInARaider wrote:

htj wrote:Certainly Sternguard make an excellent payload. Dropping them off in a central, covered location will give them a nice 48" bubble of effectiveness. I'd be torn between that and assault termies, but would also consider just popping a tac squad in there to claim objectives once they make it to the front lines.

That could definitely also work. Tac squads are nothing to sneeze at, and besides, a lot of people don't wanna dump 250 points on one transport, and THEN fill it with expensive elite units.

In addition, I wouldn't overlook standard terminators. Their firepower is awesome, and their toughness is REDONKULOUS, and they're no slouches in CC, either. With them, you could back the Raider away and take advantage of that range, without needing to worry about them as much.

True, but I'd probably keep them on foot so that they could consistently bring their considerable firepower to bare for more turns.

htj wrote:

TermiesInARaider wrote:

htj wrote:Certainly Sternguard make an excellent payload. Dropping them off in a central, covered location will give them a nice 48" bubble of effectiveness. I'd be torn between that and assault termies, but would also consider just popping a tac squad in there to claim objectives once they make it to the front lines.

That could definitely also work. Tac squads are nothing to sneeze at, and besides, a lot of people don't wanna dump 250 points on one transport, and THEN fill it with expensive elite units.

In addition, I wouldn't overlook standard terminators. Their firepower is awesome, and their toughness is REDONKULOUS, and they're no slouches in CC, either. With them, you could back the Raider away and take advantage of that range, without needing to worry about them as much.

True, but I'd probably keep them on foot so that they could consistently bring their considerable firepower to bare for more turns.

Also smart. What about the Devastators, though? I'm honestly not sure whether they're a point-sink-gimmick kinda thing, or a legitimate choice.

Hmm, whilst I think that they can be used effectively, I'd keep them out of the raider. If I were going for a purely competitive build, I'd probably drop them from a list entirely, as they get seriously expensive very fast. As it is, I tend to use them because I enjoy the chapter organisation fluff. They're not worthless, not by a long shot, but they've no place in an optimised list. That's my take on them, anyway.

htj wrote:Hmm, whilst I think that they can be used effectively, I'd keep them out of the raider. If I were going for a purely competitive build, I'd probably drop them from a list entirely, as they get seriously expensive very fast. As it is, I tend to use them because I enjoy the chapter organisation fluff. They're not worthless, not by a long shot, but they've no place in an optimised list. That's my take on them, anyway.

I don't have the competitive drive anyways. I'll probably do it at some point, just for kicks and giggles.

TermiesInARaider wrote:

htj wrote:Hmm, whilst I think that they can be used effectively, I'd keep them out of the raider. If I were going for a purely competitive build, I'd probably drop them from a list entirely, as they get seriously expensive very fast. As it is, I tend to use them because I enjoy the chapter organisation fluff. They're not worthless, not by a long shot, but they've no place in an optimised list. That's my take on them, anyway.

I don't have the competitive drive anyways. I'll probably do it at some point, just for kicks and giggles.

If nothing else, they look awesome. And it's always fun to fire multiple heavy weapons at once.

So I see a sample army of this going a little like this. I don't have my Codex on me, so the points may not match up or anything. Main thrust is over all concept.

Total: 2000-3000 (Somewhere in there. Again, no codex. :/)

Land Raider Godhammer W/ Sternguard Vets, 4 Combi-plasmas

Land Raider Godhammer W/ Sternguard Vets, 4 Combi-plasmas.

Land Raider Crusader W/ Assault Terminators, 3 SS/TH, 2 LC, Pedro Kantor

AC-LC Pred

AC-LC Pred

10 Tactical Marines in Rhino

10 Tactical Marines in Rhino

10 Tactical Marines in Rhino

Basically, a TON of armor. Small, elite, expensive. Fairly compliant to Crimson Fists fluff, not at all optimized/min-maxed/competitive. Any thoughts?

Seems to me like it might be a good idea to find some points to equip the tac squads with some heavy and/or special weaponry. Perhaps some flamers to help deal with hordes. I could see this as being quite an effective list, albeit one that would requite practice to get the hang of.

htj wrote:Seems to me like it might be a good idea to find some points to equip the tac squads with some heavy and/or special weaponry. Perhaps some flamers to help deal with hordes. I could see this as being quite an effective list, albeit one that would requite practice to get the hang of.

For all I know, they may be there. :/ Again, no Codex=no point values, so...

But I certainly do like it. And I feel like painting and building all those tanks is a great time sink. I could easily spend a summer building and painting those Raiders.

Expensive, inflexible, easily countered.

I like Ailaros' zerker godhammer shenanigans, but this is just not enough ooomph for the points value

Jihallah wrote:Expensive, inflexible, easily countered.

I like Ailaros' zerker godhammer shenanigans, but this is just not enough ooomph for the points value

Not big priorities on my side. XD I'd never suggest anyone go to a tourney with this, but for me, it's awesome. Quirky, over the top, fun to build, paint, and look at. All winners.

TermiesInARaider wrote:So I see a sample army of this going a little like this. I don't have my Codex on me, so the points may not match up or anything. Main thrust is over all concept.

Total: 2000-3000 (Somewhere in there. Again, no codex. :/)

Land Raider Godhammer W/ Sternguard Vets, 4 Combi-plasmas

Land Raider Godhammer W/ Sternguard Vets, 4 Combi-plasmas.

Land Raider Crusader W/ Assault Terminators, 3 SS/TH, 2 LC, Pedro Kantor

AC-LC Pred

AC-LC Pred

10 Tactical Marines in Rhino

10 Tactical Marines in Rhino

10 Tactical Marines in Rhino

Basically, a TON of armor. Small, elite, expensive. Fairly compliant to Crimson Fists fluff, not at all optimized/min-maxed/competitive. Any thoughts?

Yeah, sure. The list is illegal. It is using four heavy support slots. I do like the concept though.

Barksdale wrote:

TermiesInARaider wrote:So I see a sample army of this going a little like this. I don't have my Codex on me, so the points may not match up or anything. Main thrust is over all concept.

Total: 2000-3000 (Somewhere in there. Again, no codex. :/)

Land Raider Godhammer W/ Sternguard Vets, 4 Combi-plasmas

Land Raider Godhammer W/ Sternguard Vets, 4 Combi-plasmas.

Land Raider Crusader W/ Assault Terminators, 3 SS/TH, 2 LC, Pedro Kantor

AC-LC Pred

AC-LC Pred

10 Tactical Marines in Rhino

10 Tactical Marines in Rhino

10 Tactical Marines in Rhino

Basically, a TON of armor. Small, elite, expensive. Fairly compliant to Crimson Fists fluff, not at all optimized/min-maxed/competitive. Any thoughts?

Yeah, sure. The list is illegal. It is using four heavy support slots. I do like the concept though.

Again, no codex. The Predators aren't really necessarily, though, you can switch them with Dreadnoughts, TL-LCs and Missiles, to engage the same targets. Or, you could cut them entirely, and get more Tactical squads. And then split the Tactical Squads into fives, and then give them Razorbacks. I think. Again, no codex.

Or, maybe better yet, throw in some bikes or speeders to give you more speed and flexibility. Maybe?

Or just play a counts-as BA army and get LRs as dedicated transports for your entire army?

Joey wrote:Or just play a counts-as BA army and get LRs as dedicated transports for your entire army?

Tempting as that sounds, I'm a Crimson Fists fluff-junkie. So no. I mean, I could. There's nothing STOPPING ME. I just don't wanna.

Godhammers are great for sitting back on an objective and protecting a squad inside (or a squad hiding behind it). With the godhammer your basically saying "I am going to own this objective, and I only need to worry about the others":

They are incredibly hard to crack at range, and even when shaken can still get shots off with POTMS. With AV 14, who cares if you get assaulted by a scouting defflopta or PF. It takes a railgun or MG to be a significant threat.

However, at the cost of 250 points, you can bring two AC/LC predators in their place and still have points left over for taco bell.

So by going with a godhammer your trading in firepower for durability. How much does that help your list? well, your mileage may vary. Most player I know would perfer to go with the two predators for the points, but I can really see someone wanting to take the land raider as an option.

labmouse42 wrote:Godhammers are great for sitting back on an objective and protecting a squad inside (or a squad hiding behind it). With the godhammer your basically saying "I am going to own this objective, and I only need to worry about the others":

They are incredibly hard to crack at range, and even when shaken can still get shots off with POTMS. With AV 14, who cares if you get assaulted by a scouting defflopta or PF. It takes a railgun or MG to be a significant threat.

However, at the cost of 250 points, you can bring two AC/LC predators in their place and still have points left over for taco bell.

So by going with a godhammer your trading in firepower for durability. How much does that help your list? well, your mileage may vary. Most player I know would perfer to go with the two predators for the points, but I can really see someone wanting to take the land raider as an option.

You see, this is where I find the Land Raider really comes into its own, compared to the Predator. Troops. Where taking an objective with a Land Raider on it is hard, taking an objective with a Land Raider, and the Sternguard/Terminators/whatever it had in it, can be a monumental task. No short-range melta shenanigans is going to go down when you've got a bunch of Sternguard Vets hanging around to keep the Raider covered.

That said, it's all about what you wanna pay. Some people would rather have two predators and taco bell, which is completely and totally legitimate. Such is life.

I would personally not use a godhammer to aggressively take objectives. That puts them far to close to MM/MG range, which is their bane. With many armies packing multiple melta weapons per squad, its very risky.

When you hold your LR back and camp defensively, you make those MM/MGs have to come to you, which means that they need to cut through your army to do this. While some armies do this easily (Fire Dragons in a Serpent come to mind), most armies will have a hard time making their way forward to your LR.

labmouse42 wrote:I would personally not use a godhammer to aggressively take objectives. That puts them far to close to MM/MG range, which is their bane. With many armies packing multiple melta weapons per squad, its very risky.

When you hold your LR back and camp defensively, you make those MM/MGs have to come to you, which means that they need to cut through your army to do this. While some armies (Fire Dragons in a Serpent come to mind), most armies will have a hard time making their way forward to your LR.

That's definitely true.

I'm finding the Godhammer to also be an unsung hero. The more big event lists that I see, the more I notice that Godhammers are being taken rather than the Crusader and Redeemer.

Yes, a Godhammer may be able to give 2 Autolas Preds for its points cost, but what if your HS slots are already being used? Take a look at this list that I'm going to be testing after a long long time struggling to figure out how to make this codex work for me:

Blood Ravens (2000pts)
2000pt Space Marines 5th Ed (2008) Roster (Standard)

Selections:

* HQ (100pts)

* Librarian (100pts)
(And They Shall Know no Fear, Combat Tactics, Independent Character, Psyker)
Bolt Pistol, Null Zone, Power Armour, The Avenger

* Elites (710pts)

* Dreadnought (125pts)
Twin-Linked Autocannon, Twin-Linked Autocannon

* Dreadnought (125pts)
Twin-Linked Autocannon, Twin-Linked Autocannon

* Terminator Assault Squad (460pts)
(And They Shall Know no Fear, Combat Squads, Combat Tactics)
* Land Raider
(Assault Vehicle, Power of the Machine Spirit)
Multi-Melta
* Terminator
Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield
* Terminator
Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield
* Terminator
Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield
* Terminator
Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield
* Terminator Sergeant
Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield

* Troops (655pts)

* Tactical Squad (220pts)
(And They Shall Know no Fear, Combat Squads, Combat Tactics)
Meltagun, Missile Launcher, Rhino (Repair, Tank), 9x Space Marine
* Space Marine Sergeant
Bolt Pistol, Combi-Melta

* Tactical Squad (220pts)
(And They Shall Know no Fear, Combat Squads, Combat Tactics)
Meltagun, Missile Launcher, Rhino (Repair, Tank), 9x Space Marine
* Space Marine Sergeant
Bolt Pistol, Combi-Melta

* Tactical Squad (215pts)
(And They Shall Know no Fear, Combat Squads, Combat Tactics)
Flamer, Missile Launcher, Rhino (Repair, Tank), 9x Space Marine
* Space Marine Sergeant
Bolt Pistol, Combi-Flamer

* Fast Attack (280pts)

* Attack Bike Squadron (100pts)
(And They Shall Know no Fear, Combat Tactics)
* Attack Bike
Multi-Melta
* Attack Bike
Multi-Melta

* Land Speeder Squadron (90pts)
* Land Speeder
(Deep Strike)
Heavy Bolter, Typhoon Missile Launcher

* Land Speeder Squadron (90pts)
* Land Speeder
(Deep Strike)
Heavy Bolter, Typhoon Missile Launcher

* Heavy Support (255pts)

* Predator (85pts)
Autocannon, Heavy Bolters

* Predator (85pts)
Autocannon, Heavy Bolters

* Predator (85pts)
Autocannon, Heavy Bolters

AresX8 wrote:I'm finding the Godhammer to also be an unsung hero. The more big event lists that I see, the more I notice that Godhammers are being taken rather than the Crusader and Redeemer.

Yes, a Godhammer may be able to give 2 Autolas Preds for its points cost, but what if your HS slots are already being used? Take a look at this list that I'm going to be testing after a long long time struggling to figure out how to make this codex work for me:

Blood Ravens (2000pts)
2000pt Space Marines 5th Ed (2008) Roster (Standard)

Selections:

* HQ (100pts)

* Librarian (100pts)
(And They Shall Know no Fear, Combat Tactics, Independent Character, Psyker)
Bolt Pistol, Null Zone, Power Armour, The Avenger

* Elites (710pts)

* Dreadnought (125pts)
Twin-Linked Autocannon, Twin-Linked Autocannon

* Dreadnought (125pts)
Twin-Linked Autocannon, Twin-Linked Autocannon

* Terminator Assault Squad (460pts)
(And They Shall Know no Fear, Combat Squads, Combat Tactics)
* Land Raider
(Assault Vehicle, Power of the Machine Spirit)
Multi-Melta
* Terminator
Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield
* Terminator
Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield
* Terminator
Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield
* Terminator
Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield
* Terminator Sergeant
Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield

* Troops (655pts)

* Tactical Squad (220pts)
(And They Shall Know no Fear, Combat Squads, Combat Tactics)
Meltagun, Missile Launcher, Rhino (Repair, Tank), 9x Space Marine
* Space Marine Sergeant
Bolt Pistol, Combi-Melta

* Tactical Squad (220pts)
(And They Shall Know no Fear, Combat Squads, Combat Tactics)
Meltagun, Missile Launcher, Rhino (Repair, Tank), 9x Space Marine
* Space Marine Sergeant
Bolt Pistol, Combi-Melta

* Tactical Squad (215pts)
(And They Shall Know no Fear, Combat Squads, Combat Tactics)
Flamer, Missile Launcher, Rhino (Repair, Tank), 9x Space Marine
* Space Marine Sergeant
Bolt Pistol, Combi-Flamer

* Fast Attack (280pts)

* Attack Bike Squadron (100pts)
(And They Shall Know no Fear, Combat Tactics)
* Attack Bike
Multi-Melta
* Attack Bike
Multi-Melta

* Land Speeder Squadron (90pts)
* Land Speeder
(Deep Strike)
Heavy Bolter, Typhoon Missile Launcher

* Land Speeder Squadron (90pts)
* Land Speeder
(Deep Strike)
Heavy Bolter, Typhoon Missile Launcher

* Heavy Support (255pts)

* Predator (85pts)
Autocannon, Heavy Bolters

* Predator (85pts)
Autocannon, Heavy Bolters

* Predator (85pts)
Autocannon, Heavy Bolters

Awesome, awesome list you've got there, I really like it.

Not to drag things OT, but isn't it actually called a Phobos-pattern Land Raider? Godhammers refer to its sponson weaponry. Or is Land Raider Phobos too esoteric and not hip enough for the intrawebz?

Right, so my problem with godhammer land raiders is that they're not really land raiders. They're up-armed, up-armored predators. Land raiders are good precisely because you can sit still and unload lascannon death OR drive up and guarantee a unit an assault. Godhammers are nothing more than just shooty HS options.

If you judge the amount of killy per point, though, godhammers come up wanting for me. Why not just take 3x lascannon preds instead? I mean, if you're talking about an apocalypse size game over 2000 points, then I suppose you've long since run out of HS slots, but otherwise, why bother?

Take this into account and the fact that the other two codex variations remove their anti-tank (If the godhammer is nothing more than a really expensive predator, the redeemer and crusader are nothing more than a really, really, really expensive rhinos), and I cast my vote for the standard raider every time.

the_Armyman wrote:Not to drag things OT, but isn't it actually called a Phobos-pattern Land Raider? Godhammers refer to its sponson weaponry. Or is Land Raider Phobos too esoteric and not hip enough for the intrawebz?

Is suppose I should just call it a Land Raider, for solidarity, but in most of the fluff I've read, it's called the Godhammer landraider. I dunno.

Ailaros wrote:If you judge the amount of killy per point, though, godhammers come up wanting for me. Why not just take 3x lascannon preds instead?

An AC/LC pread is 120 points. You can get just a bit over 2 of them for a LR.

I mentioned the reasons in more detail in an earlier reply. Trading out for a LR over dual preds gives you more durability, as even a stunned LR still gets one shot off.
Basically if you want to play a durability strategy over a firepower strategy I can see it being worthwhile. This might be useful as part of an overall KP denial strategy.

Personally I would spam the predators, but hey, there is more than one way to do it, right?