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ok, so I joined a group in my home town this month. I started while they are playing the tournament where the first month is 400 pts then 800 later this month, then 1200 next month then 1500 for the finals. I am currently very confused as what to take to make up those totals. Currently for the first 400 i have: 10 kabalites with dark lance and blaster with a sybarite with a blast pistol and agonizer 10 wyches with shardnet and chainflails and a hekatrix with agonizer and blast pistol. for the next round i already got a raider ( i know this is a no brainier for this army). i was thinking a talos pain engine with chain flails and eventually getting for my hqs,. baron sathonyx and duke sliscus. I am open to all ideas as this is the first time i have ever played.

First-off, welcome to Dakka and to Warhammer 40,000 in general.

Your first goal should be getting everyone (and that means EVERYONE) into a Raider or a Venom. Dark Eldar win or die on their ability to outmaneuver the enemy, footslogging troops in this list die like flies and don't kill anything before they do.

After that, try coming up with a general plan for the force; mostly whether you want to win by blowing the enemy into tiny bits from the other side of the board or zoom up and slice them into tiny bits on close combat. Lists that focus on close combat tend to use more Wyches in Troops and Incubi in Elites, while shootier lists run more Warriors in Troops and tend to fill the Heavy Support slots with Ravagers/Razorwings.

Try and make Troops the core of your list, most beginners try making a list centered around having your non-Troops units blowing things up and tack on Troops as an afterthought, this tends to lead to 1) ignoring important and powerful units/tactics and 2) losing objective-based games. Your Wyches and Warriors can kill just as many enemies as the big nasties, use them to their fullest. General rule of thumb: one Troops choice per 400-500pts of the army.

Dark Eldar are an unforgiving list, but can be massively powerful when played with finesse and care. You can expect to lose plenty of games while you're learning the army, don't get discouraged, it happens to everyone.

Everything in the Dark Eldar list is speedy. Your goal should be to bring your entire army to bear on a small portion of your enemy's using superior mobility, snip off isolated units before the enemy can counterattack.

As for Sathonyx and Sliscus, I'd advise taking one or the other, not both. If you're building an army around Sathonyx, use Hellions to take advantage of his rules; if you're using Sliscus, take as many Warriors/Trueborn/Wyches/Hekiatrix as you can get your hands on. Build the army to complement the special character, don't take a special character as an afterthought to the army because he looks cool.

Well first off you need to decide portal or mech. The two armies play very differently and changing from one to the other requires some new models so decide that first.

For a mech list, venom spam is probably the best way to run them competatively although mech guard will eat you alive 9 times out of 10. While it isn't as competative WWP lists are still fun but require significantly more infantry/bike/jump infantry.

I'm going to assume venom spam since I know it better and let someone else advise if you want a WWP list. So here goes:

First off this is a MSU army. You don't want a lot of upgrades, trading them in for extra fire power. The next thing is synergy. Weapons that go well together need to be purchased as such. An example of bad synergy would be a Dark Lance, Blaster, and Blast Pistol. You have to move to fire the other two leaving your expensive Dark Lance sitting around, you also have to get dangerously close to use the blast pistol. The blaster is hands down one of our best weapons. I would run a 5 man squad with just a blaster. Put them in a venom and take the extra splinter cannon. This comes to 125 points. 250 for minimum troops selection. Next you need an HQ. The cheapest one for effect is a haemy so lets give him one competative toy, the liquifier. That's 60 points. The other big troops choice is either 3 wracks for holding a home objective or wyches for tarpitting/CC buisiness. Normally you don't MSU them, take 9 INCLUDING the hekatrix and give her an agoniser. Then attach the haemy and put them all it a raider. Don't forget the flickerfield wych makes their boat somewhat survivable. This can be more expensive, but not bad. HS and elites you won't touch until later and those would mainly be ravagers w/ FF and blasterborn. Blasterborn are 3-4 trueborn with a blaster each in a venom like above. That will round out a list for bigger games.

I would run something like this:

HQ: Haemy w/ Liquifer
Troops: 5 Kabalite warriors w/ blaster in a venom w/ 2 Splinter Cannons
Troops: 5 Kabalite warriors w/ blaster in a venom w/ 2 Splinter Cannons
Troops: 3 Wracks w/ liquifier.

That should be around 400 but I don't have a book on me at the moment so don't trust the points. You might be able to drop a squad of warriors and the wracks for some wyches, buy you will lose some firepower. You will need mech at any level with DE otherwise out T3 and weak armor will fold before you get close.

As for HQs, as Anomander said don't run an hq as an afterthought. Sathy works with beasts ok but also with hellions. Hellions aren't that great compared to the other FA options or troops. Sliscus works great in wych cult lists with a squad of decked out trueborn as is escort. That would be 2 SC and 7 carbines on the 9 man squad, put in a raider. Normally you will see just a base haemy as an hq since he's cheap.

HS: Talosi are great for Cities of Death games where buildings need to go or some portals. Otherwise they are two slow to keep up with the army unlike ravagers. Razorwings work great in armies with an excess of Dark Lances and bombers are fun or useful if you really struggle destroying some things. I use one since I can't destroy a LR for the life of me. The new monoliths and LRBT are one thing but the same armor value I can't take out a LR unless I use a voidraven.

thanks for the help so far. The idea i had before i posted this was i want to do either 1 of 2 things. i keep hearing of this alpha strike tactic, but once I talked to some of the guys from the tourney, they said don't bother cause it doesn't work with the new codex. the other one i was thinking was straight close combat with duke sliscus as an hq and lelith with a squad of wyches, but take her out as they disembark because if the wyches loose and i lose the leadership check she will run with them and is then useless.
With the 2nd tactic i wanted to bring in maybe
2 5 man squads of incubi (Klaivex in each with demiklaves) in a venom = 400
a squad of more wyches( all have granades) with a hekatrix w/ agonizer gauntlets and chain flail with lelith in a raider = 405
, the talos ( idea for him is let the enemy shoot it and keep him simple therefore i can move up and get to close combat or they shoot other things and he gets in there are reeks havoc) = 110
at least 1 ravenger for armour killing ( with shock prow and flicker) = 120

(already have and am forced to use the rest of the tourney because of rules)
1 10 man squad of kabalite ( syberite with blast pistol and agonizer dark lance and blaster) = 185
1 10 man squad of wyches( all squad has granades hekatrix with blast pistol and agonizer razorflail and shardnet) = 185

which comes to 1325 and i need 1500 for the final of the tourney.

the problem being is next month we go to 800pt cap and i dont know what to bring in for that part of it or even the 1200pt cap thats really the part that i need help with cause all i have right now is what is above

Lunacara wrote:thanks for the help so far. The idea i had before i posted this was i want to do either 1 of 2 things. i keep hearing of this alpha strike tactic, but once I talked to some of the guys from the tourney, they said don't bother cause it doesn't work with the new codex. the other one i was thinking was straight close combat with duke sliscus as an hq and lelith with a squad of wyches, but take her out as they disembark because if the wyches loose and i lose the leadership check she will run with them and is then useless.

Your first problem is thinking that Leilith will lose. She won't. Quite the opposite, in fact, which leads to the real problem: Generally she will murder everything (with few exceptions) and you will be sitting out in the open with your butt bare in the breeze. If you attached a Haemi to them to start you now have two Pain tokens. I promise you, once you get girls to Furious Charge level, your opponant will freak out and try to kill them all ASAP with every shooting attack he owns. That can be useful, but with Leilith in there, it's too large an investment.

What Alpha Strike tactic? If you are talking about Alpha Strike in general (hitting hard and first) then that is what DE EXCELL at. WWP or Mech, DE thrive as Alpha strikers, success can not be found in any other fashion. (Save for the odd "wyches tarpitting the enemy CC" use. Okay, not SO odd...)

With the 2nd tactic i wanted to bring in maybe
2 5 man squads of incubi (Klaivex in each with demiklaves) in a venom = 400
a squad of more wyches( all have granades) with a hekatrix w/ agonizer gauntlets and chain flail with lelith in a raider = 405
, the talos ( idea for him is let the enemy shoot it and keep him simple therefore i can move up and get to close combat or they shoot other things and he gets in there are reeks havoc) = 110
at least 1 ravenger for armour killing ( with shock prow and flicker) = 120

(already have and am forced to use the rest of the tourney because of rules)
1 10 man squad of kabalite ( syberite with blast pistol and agonizer dark lance and blaster) = 185
1 10 man squad of wyches( all squad has granades hekatrix with blast pistol and agonizer razorflail and shardnet) = 185

which comes to 1325 and i need 1500 for the final of the tourney.

the problem being is next month we go to 800pt cap and i dont know what to bring in for that part of it or even the 1200pt cap thats really the part that i need help with cause all i have right now is what is above

Wyches honestly have their force multiplied by having a Haemi deployed with them. Get a Haemi with Liquifier and a 9 girl squad of Wyches. Take a Hekatrix with agonizer and you are set. Grenades and Wych Weapons to taste. The girls jump out and take the haemi's token with them, giving them FNP (now in combat they will have a 4+ Inv save and a 4+ FNP which you can roll both of for the same wounds, making them very hard to kill.) The Haemi stays in the raider, and spends the rest of his time setting up shots to melt troops with his liquifier. Since the Raider is open topped, you measure the template from the hull rather than from a firing point, letting you spray acid with frightening impunity.

Your Warriors can drop the Blaster OR the Darklance. You should not take both, as the DL can not be shot while on the move, and the blaster has only an 18" range, requiring you to stay mobile. With an AV 10 vehicle, the Raider is liable to be punched from the sky, therefore it should always be on the move unless you are staying at sniper range (which invalidates both Blaster and Blast Pistol) The blast pistol has too short of a range for me to consider its value, atm. As a new DE player, i would recommend dropping it (and the sergeant upgrade for the warriors) If the warriors get into combat, they're going to die anyway. Better to let them die so that you can shoot the victorious enemy rather than let combat get bogged down. (and worse: fail on YOUR turn!)

My 400pt suggestion would be:
5 Warriors with Blaster in a Venom with 2 Splinter Cannons
9 Wyches with Hekatrix and Agonizer, haywire grenades in a Raider with FF and shockprow
Haemonculous with Liquifier.

Uncomfortably light, IMO, but everyone will be, as like as not at that points level.

800 I would toss in a Ravager with FF, Trueborn with Blasters in a Venom, trade the warriors out for a 10 man squad with a Splinter Cannon in a raider with FF (shockprow too if you can afford it) and possibly a unit of Incubi in a Venom or a min size unit of Reavers with a heatlance or Blaster (getting those last 80ish pts in small games can be really rough)

Alpha strike does still work. In fact DE rely on it a lot. Sliscus has to be deployed with trueborn or warriors if you have them and taking him for the second roll alone on the drug table is ignoring a lot of his power so you end up paying a lot more than it is worth. The haemy however is cheap and gives your wyches a fighting chance. You still disembark and leave him behind but they take his token!

As for incubi you don't want the kalivex since he is incredibly expensive, to the point you can get another body and get more attacks. The thing with incubi is you want them big enough to not die quickly but small enough that they don't chew through enemy squads so that they stand around on your opponent's shooting phase waiting for the plasma cannon to find them.

Lelith is way to expensive. Yes she can get a billion attacks but she is still S3 and dies on a coin flip to an assault cannon, and has no drugs. Leave the wyches at 9 including the boss with agoniser and just attach the haemy. A razorflail is the mathmatically your best option as long as you don't tarpit. Tarpiting wych squads take a shardnet.

The problem with the talos is his shooting is outdone by other units, he is to slow so that he will be ignored while the rest of your army is delt with then he gets shot. He's nasty in CC but he takes away a ravager spot. You don't need the shock prow on the ravager since it should never be tank shocking. It should be in the back.

Since you are stuck with the warriors and wyches use that as a learning experience. Watch how many times you get to actually use the B.Pistol to destroy a tank. Watch how many times you get to use all three darklight weapons in a single turn.

These were written by Thor and might help with some tactics:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Dark_Eldar_Tactica_Part_1

Nagashek wrote:

Lunacara wrote:thanks for the help so far. The idea i had before i posted this was i want to do either 1 of 2 things. i keep hearing of this alpha strike tactic, but once I talked to some of the guys from the tourney, they said don't bother cause it doesn't work with the new codex. the other one i was thinking was straight close combat with duke sliscus as an hq and lelith with a squad of wyches, but take her out as they disembark because if the wyches loose and i lose the leadership check she will run with them and is then useless.

Your first problem is thinking that Leilith will lose. She won't. Quite the opposite, in fact, which leads to the real problem: Generally she will murder everything (with few exceptions) and you will be sitting out in the open with your butt bare in the breeze. If you attached a Haemi to them to start you now have two Pain tokens. I promise you, once you get girls to Furious Charge level, your opponant will freak out and try to kill them all ASAP with every shooting attack he owns. That can be useful, but with Leilith in there, it's too large an investment.

What Alpha Strike tactic? If you are talking about Alpha Strike in general (hitting hard and first) then that is what DE EXCELL at. WWP or Mech, DE thrive as Alpha strikers, success can not be found in any other fashion. (Save for the odd "wyches tarpitting the enemy CC" use. Okay, not SO odd...)

With the 2nd tactic i wanted to bring in maybe
2 5 man squads of incubi (Klaivex in each with demiklaves) in a venom = 400
a squad of more wyches( all have granades) with a hekatrix w/ agonizer gauntlets and chain flail with lelith in a raider = 405
, the talos ( idea for him is let the enemy shoot it and keep him simple therefore i can move up and get to close combat or they shoot other things and he gets in there are reeks havoc) = 110
at least 1 ravenger for armour killing ( with shock prow and flicker) = 120

(already have and am forced to use the rest of the tourney because of rules)
1 10 man squad of kabalite ( syberite with blast pistol and agonizer dark lance and blaster) = 185
1 10 man squad of wyches( all squad has granades hekatrix with blast pistol and agonizer razorflail and shardnet) = 185

which comes to 1325 and i need 1500 for the final of the tourney.

the problem being is next month we go to 800pt cap and i dont know what to bring in for that part of it or even the 1200pt cap thats really the part that i need help with cause all i have right now is what is above

Wyches honestly have their force multiplied by having a Haemi deployed with them. Get a Haemi with Liquifier and a 9 girl squad of Wyches. Take a Hekatrix with agonizer and you are set. Grenades and Wych Weapons to taste. The girls jump out and take the haemi's token with them, giving them FNP (now in combat they will have a 4+ Inv save and a 4+ FNP which you can roll both of for the same wounds, making them very hard to kill.) The Haemi stays in the raider, and spends the rest of his time setting up shots to melt troops with his liquifier. Since the Raider is open topped, you measure the template from the hull rather than from a firing point, letting you spray acid with frightening impunity.

Your Warriors can drop the Blaster OR the Darklance. You should not take both, as the DL can not be shot while on the move, and the blaster has only an 18" range, requiring you to stay mobile. With an AV 10 vehicle, the Raider is liable to be punched from the sky, therefore it should always be on the move unless you are staying at sniper range (which invalidates both Blaster and Blast Pistol) The blast pistol has too short of a range for me to consider its value, atm. As a new DE player, i would recommend dropping it (and the sergeant upgrade for the warriors) If the warriors get into combat, they're going to die anyway. Better to let them die so that you can shoot the victorious enemy rather than let combat get bogged down. (and worse: fail on YOUR turn!)

My 400pt suggestion would be:
5 Warriors with Blaster in a Venom with 2 Splinter Cannons
9 Wyches with Hekatrix and Agonizer, haywire grenades in a Raider with FF and shockprow
Haemonculous with Liquifier.

Uncomfortably light, IMO, but everyone will be, as like as not at that points level.

800 I would toss in a Ravager with FF, Trueborn with Blasters in a Venom, trade the warriors out for a 10 man squad with a Splinter Cannon in a raider with FF (shockprow too if you can afford it) and possibly a unit of Incubi in a Venom or a min size unit of Reavers with a heatlance or Blaster (getting those last 80ish pts in small games can be really rough)

i understand the fact that DE beat others in initiative and therefore can attack first most of the time if not all the time. But i was reading on the internet that there was a tactic where you got as many ravengers as you could and used the dark lances to kill off half of their army on your first turn, but they said it doesnt work as well in the new codex and that is where i was wondering. as for Leilith i know she is uber powerful that is why i wanted her on her own so she didnt hopefully kill everything, but even then that would make her sitting out there by herself wouldnt it?

as for the recomendation is that for the next 400 pts? or for the current? because the tourney rules state that once a unit has been played it cannot be changed until the end of the tourney, but the thing is everyone who is playing is playing a new army so there has been many mess ups already . any suggestions for dealing with the mistakes of the 400pts and going to the 800 with the base that is above?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akroma06 wrote:Alpha strike does still work. In fact DE rely on it a lot. Sliscus has to be deployed with trueborn or warriors if you have them and taking him for the second roll alone on the drug table is ignoring a lot of his power so you end up paying a lot more than it is worth. The haemy however is cheap and gives your wyches a fighting chance. You still disembark and leave him behind but they take his token!

As for incubi you don't want the kalivex since he is incredibly expensive, to the point you can get another body and get more attacks. The thing with incubi is you want them big enough to not die quickly but small enough that they don't chew through enemy squads so that they stand around on your opponent's shooting phase waiting for the plasma cannon to find them.

Lelith is way to expensive. Yes she can get a billion attacks but she is still S3 and dies on a coin flip to an assault cannon, and has no drugs. Leave the wyches at 9 including the boss with agoniser and just attach the haemy. A razorflail is the mathmatically your best option as long as you don't tarpit. Tarpiting wych squads take a shardnet.

The problem with the talos is his shooting is outdone by other units, he is to slow so that he will be ignored while the rest of your army is delt with then he gets shot. He's nasty in CC but he takes away a ravager spot. You don't need the shock prow on the ravager since it should never be tank shocking. It should be in the back.

Since you are stuck with the warriors and wyches use that as a learning experience. Watch how many times you get to actually use the B.Pistol to destroy a tank. Watch how many times you get to use all three darklight weapons in a single turn.

These were written by Thor and might help with some tactics:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Dark_Eldar_Tactica_Part_1

thanks for your input. I have read the entire tactica, but being a new player it doesnt make a lot of sense sometimes.... for i do not know what tarpitting ect means. as for the haemi, i thought it would be pointless until i just clued in... dont let it leave the raider ( as you said) this should give it some better survivability and such. as for the talos can he do what other units do and instead of fire move 6 more inches towards the enemy? and since i already ordered him will he just be a dust collecter for now as well?

Tarpitting - using your wyches (or other equivalent unit) to lock a more expensive enemy unit in combat for so many turns, that both squads are effectively no use. Generally speaking, your 100 points of wyches can effectively lock up 200 points of enemy non-combat units for 3+ turns. You won't kill them quickly, but that's only a 100 point investment from you, and a 200 point investment from the enemy. The net result is that the remainder of his army is weaker than the remainder of yours. The combination of a 4+ invulnerable save (in combat) and a 4+ Feel No Pain roll after you fail the armour save makes them very resilient in combat.

Lelith - At the low points that you're discussing to start with, she won't be possible to field. In reality, if you're taking her in games lower than 1500 points, you're probably taking too large a risk. She suffers the same problem as wyches in general. She's difficult to kill in combat, but suffers against shooting.

Army list - For clarity, is this your 400 point list?

5 Warriors with Blaster in a Venom with 2 Splinter Cannons
9 Wyches with Hekatrix and Agonizer, haywire grenades in a Raider with FF and shockprow
Haemonculous with Liquifier.

If so I think you've actually got a pretty good starting point. *Possibly* too many wyches in that raider for efficiency (experience and consensus says 7-8 is optimal), but certainly far-from-terrible choices have been made. Scaling from low points to high points is a challenge. It's evident that you need to start thinking about the longer term now. I'd probably suggest for the next 400 points:

4 Kabalite Trueborn with 4 blasters in a venom
151

7 Wyches with haywire grenades, one upgraded to a hekatrix with an agoniser
1 haemonculus with a liquifier
Raider, flickerfield
244

Total: 395 (choose some 5 point upgrade to fill the gap)

This list gives you another troops choice with which you can hold objectives. It gives substantial anti-tank. Brings you to 7 lance shots at 800 points (usually swing for approx 1 lance per 100-120 points in a mech list). The battle plan is to use all of these lances to open up enemy transports, then to assault the contents with wyches. Come turn 5, if any skimmers are still flying, use them to contest objectives (or rush troops to an uncontested objective).

Sorcererbob wrote:Tarpitting - using your wyches (or other equivalent unit) to lock a more expensive enemy unit in combat for so many turns, that both squads are effectively no use. Generally speaking, your 100 points of wyches can effectively lock up 200 points of enemy non-combat units for 3+ turns. You won't kill them quickly, but that's only a 100 point investment from you, and a 200 point investment from the enemy. The net result is that the remainder of his army is weaker than the remainder of yours. The combination of a 4+ invulnerable save (in combat) and a 4+ Feel No Pain roll after you fail the armour save makes them very resilient in combat.

Lelith - At the low points that you're discussing to start with, she won't be possible to field. In reality, if you're taking her in games lower than 1500 points, you're probably taking too large a risk. She suffers the same problem as wyches in general. She's difficult to kill in combat, but suffers against shooting.

Army list - For clarity, is this your 400 point list?

5 Warriors with Blaster in a Venom with 2 Splinter Cannons
9 Wyches with Hekatrix and Agonizer, haywire grenades in a Raider with FF and shockprow
Haemonculous with Liquifier.

If so I think you've actually got a pretty good starting point. *Possibly* too many wyches in that raider for efficiency (experience and consensus says 7-8 is optimal), but certainly far-from-terrible choices have been made. Scaling from low points to high points is a challenge. It's evident that you need to start thinking about the longer term now. I'd probably suggest for the next 400 points:

4 Kabalite Trueborn with 4 blasters in a venom
151

7 Wyches with haywire grenades, one upgraded to a hekatrix with an agoniser
1 haemonculus with a liquifier
Raider, flickerfield
244

Total: 395 (choose some 5 point upgrade to fill the gap)

This list gives you another troops choice with which you can hold objectives. It gives substantial anti-tank. Brings you to 7 lance shots at 800 points (usually swing for approx 1 lance per 100-120 points in a mech list). The battle plan is to use all of these lances to open up enemy transports, then to assault the contents with wyches. Come turn 5, if any skimmers are still flying, use them to contest objectives (or rush troops to an uncontested objective).

I WISH lol no my first 400 pts are
10 Kabalite with syberite( agoniser and blast pistol) dark lance and blaster
10 wyches with Hekatrix(agoniser and blast pistol) and haywire granades with razorflail and shardnet
which equals out to 370pts.

being the new player i was i figured the best is always the best to go (specially when alot of people are playing goblins and red guard i believe....) and seeing them with many many models so early kinda scared me off a bit and i kept reading about dark lances are awesome so why not put that in a troop..... so far i love my wyches and my kabalites have done nothing but get destroyed everytime but as the rules state i cannot change the first 400 or take anyaway so i am stuck at this point. the only other rule is at least 1 hq by 800 I was thinking along the lines of adding

raider x 3 with flicker (210)
Haemi with liquifier 9 wyches(1 hekatrix with only agoniser, with razorflail and gauntlets and granades) (108) ( goes in 1 raider)
ravager with flicker (115)

which will come to (801)..................... i can get rid of the granades for 2nd squad of wyches but will talk to the organizer and see if that 1 point really matters that much...........


so any comments on the idea?

Sounds like you'll have to change your first list anyway, since you need a HQ to be legal (unless I missed something in an earlier post). Sorcerorbob gave you (I think) a really nice starting point list at 400. At 800 - I'd either try his list, or consider some ravagers and another 5 man warrior squad in a venom.

I ran something very similar to yours when I started, and discovered a couple things. You waste points on your Warriors by upgrading to a Sybarite and adding a blast pistol and agonizer. If they get that close to something, they are going to die quickly the next turn. You don't want Warriors in close combat. Either park them in terrain with the Dark Lance, or shrink the squad, put them in a Venom, and only add one blaster. That's my preferred choice.

bubbinski wrote:Sounds like you'll have to change your first list anyway, since you need a HQ to be legal (unless I missed something in an earlier post). Sorcerorbob gave you (I think) a really nice starting point list at 400. At 800 - I'd either try his list, or consider some ravagers and another 5 man warrior squad in a venom.

I ran something very similar to yours when I started, and discovered a couple things. You waste points on your Warriors by upgrading to a Sybarite and adding a blast pistol and agonizer. If they get that close to something, they are going to die quickly the next turn. You don't want Warriors in close combat. Either park them in terrain with the Dark Lance, or shrink the squad, put them in a Venom, and only add one blaster. That's my preferred choice.

In one of my posts i did say that once i put it on the table it has to remain there for the entire tourney, so thats why its a problem now... they let me get away with no HQ this round because A. i was just starting and B. with such little points and no idea how to do it they just said buy 2 squads and start with that

so far i think the only way it will work is what i posted above which was

3 raiders
9wyches (hekatrix agoniser gauntlets razorflails granades) with a Haemi (liqufier)
1 ravenger or the talos that i preordered and mind as well use

which comes to 801 w/ ravenger or under with talos

Edit: I didn't see the post immediately above before writing this post. Stupid-walk-away-and-return-later-without-refreshing

Edit2:

3 raiders - 210 points
9wyches (hekatrix agoniser gauntlets razorflails granades) with a Haemi (liqufier) - 218 points
1 ravenger or the talos that i preordered and mind as well use - approx 100 points

You've spent 500+ points here...
--------
Original post:

@bubbinski: he isn't allowed to change the starting list. I think we can assume it was legal for the tournament. They probably played that your "hq" was just the leader of a squad or ignored it all together.

@Lunacara: I'm sure you've by now realised that your original 400 points wasn't efficient or synergistic. As Nagashek said earlier, taking a dark lance and a blaster AND a blast pistol in the same squad looks good on paper, but in action it's not a great plan. Don't worry, we can fix this! At least you chose squad sizes that fit in raiders! At this point it seems you've played a couple of games. What are your opponents running with? You mentioned goblins and redguard... so I'm guessing there is an ork player and... something else? Are you playing mostly against marines? Is there a prevalent play style? Also, let us know what you've struggled to deal with so that we can adapt the list as we go, and provide extra advice.

10 Kabalite warriors with sybarite(agoniser and blast pistol) dark lance and blaster
175

10 wyches with Hekatrix(agoniser and blast pistol) and haywire granades with razorflail and shardnet
185

Have I added one of those up incorrectly? I'm getting a total of 360. Lets roll with it. 430 points to spend. Need to buy a HQ.
raider x 2 with flicker (140) <-- Yes. Absolutely. This will give you some long range anti-tank (out of bolter range, which is important) and the manoeuvrability that makes DE play well. I've changed the number to 2. You'll see why.
You've added the points for that wyche squad incorrectly. It's much more expensive than you calculated. You can either take:

7 wyches. One is upgraded to hekatrix. Agoniser. In a raider with flickerfield. 170 points. 120 points left to spend. Putting a haemi with a liquifier here is a non-terrible choice. You may even put 2. 2x(haemi+liquifier) = 120 points on the nose. When the points go up again, deploy the second haemi somewhere else. For something less competitive but IMO more fun, consider an archon with a clone field and agoniser for 100 points - very difficult to kill in combat. Can even give him a blast pistol to take advantage of that BS7.
OR
4 kabalite trueborn. 4 blasters. A venom, upgraded to the splinter cannon. 173. Leaving 110 points left to spend on your compulsory HQ. If you choose a haemi with these guys, you can deploy the haemi with them now, and with wyches when the points scale up again.
OR
Ravager with flickerfield x 2 = 230. Leaving 60 points for your compulsory HQ (who will walk alone, and give an easy kill point to the enemy).

The blasterborn squad are specialised tank hunters. The venom that they're in is excellent at anti-infantry (it alone takes 12 splinter shots per turn), and the blasterborn can shoot at a different target to the venom. Against an unknown enemy I'd probably choose the blasterborn. If that option doesn't interest you, I'd go with the wyches and two haemi's. There are other combinations, but I think those choices will serve you the best.

Edit: Also update on the rules of the tourney!!!!!!

400pts- what is played stays, no HQ required but is needed after 800pts no heavy
800pts- same as above but HQ is required and no heavy still
1200pts- same as above and heavys are allowed
1500pts- must be painted anything allowed and all above must be followed



@scorcerbob

I am the only DE player in this tourney. there are 3 guys running orks, 1 grey knight, 1 wolf thing, 1 or 2 space marine, 2 blood angels, 2 IG , and i think 2 playing chaos marines( cant remember name)
as you did say, i did find out the hard way :( but oh well i finally got a win today against orks with the first 400 pts because of the blaster, dark lance and pistol( never thought it would happen ) and it seems that everyone just rushes me right off the top and most armies have some kind of armour by now with the difference being the guy with GK he only has 3 guys and is doing a deep strike tactic. So far its been very close every game with 2 or 3 of my guys against their HQ in the end with them winning by moverability or my gakky dice rolls. The idea that i want to go with is balance with close combat to take advantage of the high initiative and to be able to have a few units in case i have to fight those GK cause everyone in the club advises me not to go after them yet cause they will eat my troops like nothing. i would prefer to go wych army over all seeing as they are more resilant and have won me many fights thus far, while other then today the kabalites have done nothing 'cept eat steel.

so far i have bought the following models ( either cause i thought it sounded bad ass on paper or cause i know i will be needing them)
raider
haemi
Talos/cronos

and for the next step there is 440 pts total i can spend.

i am assuming both things below include those 2 raiders with flicker (140) so that leaves 300 exact

should i get another haemi or go for the full squad of wyches in that raider? is one better then the other or is it just preference

also is an incubi worth it? according to the guide on this sight they say they rock, have they worked well for you and should they be upgraded or left stock?

also what is a good 2nd HQ choice? go for cheap or go for more expensive?

i know there is alot of questions its just everyone i talk to kinda goes all over the place from one area to the next and i dont understand whats the difference between everything i can only see paper and get confused, but its starting to come together. also thanks for your time in helping its much appreciated and will make this game much more enjoyable

The haemi and raider are good investments. The talos may not get used due to the fact that it doesn't fit in well with the skimmer list (because it can't move fast enough). Btw congrats on your victory! Common builds for what your opponents are running with will include a number of transports. You need to open the transports before you can use the wyches.

You're right to take another 2 raiders with flickerfields for 140 points. The incubi are fun to play, but perhaps not as competitive at this points level as other options. Generally, run them without upgrades. And generally you send them in to charge something that wyches have already engaged and you want to die immediately. You need to get some more anti-tank too. Consider:
5 warriors, a blaster, a venom 115 points.
3 incubi, a venom, 121 points <-- 3 incubi should kill 2 space marines on the charge. On top of what the wyches will do, that squad will die quickly.
1 haemonculus, liquifier, 60 points
=296 points

Or maybe:
7 wyches, haywire grenades, hekatrix, agoniser, raider, flickerfields. 184 points.
Haemonculus, liquifier 60 points
Haemonculus 50 points <-- you can deploy this guy elsewhere later. A bit wasted in this list though.
=294 points

Some ideas on dealing with your opponents:

Orks - allow them to run towards you. Use your superior range to make them come at you. They'll move slowly, and they'll probably elect to run instead of shoot. Around turn 2-3, move the full 24" to one of their flanks and try to split them up. If you succeed, then attack part of his army while the other tries to get into position. You need to be confident that you'll kill the portion before the other part of the army charges you. You can optionally stay at range and continue hammering him with your superior fire. Focus-fire one squad until it's no longer a threat then move on. Pretty much just do loops around them until there is nothing left to fight then engage as necessary. Do not engage a mob of 20+ boyz in combat. It will end badly for you. Use your liquifiers to thin the herd first.

Space marine (tanks) - He'll come at you in rhinos and razorbacks. Perhaps with meltas or plasmas to shoot at your transports. The idea is to be on his flank and open up the tanks on the edge of the phalanx. Then you can either assault his troops, or dance away and ignore them because they can't catch you.

Space marine (drop pods) - He'll be forced to do drop pod assault. Because we're so fast it's really not a problem most of the time. Just choose where to fight, and fight an individual marine squad with 2 squads of wyches for a quick and easy kill. If he drops everything in the same area, then just deal with him like you do with ork hordes. Shoot him with your 36" splinter cannons and mock his inability to catch you.

Space marines (deep striking) - I have no idea how to deal with this. I assume they're slow moving after they drop in... so you should be able to fly away and hit them with all of your guns at range. If there are only 3 models on the table, then hit him with weight of fire. He'll fail his 2+ saves eventually. Also, feel free to abuse the fact that with only 3 models on the table he'll probably have troubles in objective games.

Imperial Guard (mechanised) - This is a toughy. It's the worst match up for dark eldar. Expect to lose to mech guard the first 10 times you play against them. A simple tactic for a new player is to hide behind terrain, and force him to come to you. It makes for a boring game. Jump on objectives on turn 5 and swing for a tie. If he has a hydra, keep in mind that it will reliably destroy one skimmer per turn.

So from reading this brief suggestion on tactics, you can see why the talos doesn't really fit so well. It's all about controlling the battle such that YOU choose where and when the fight happens. And if he doesn't ever split his forces in such a way that you can take advantage, then just stay away and objective grab.

@ scocererbob

thanks for the concrats and that is how i won today he had 2 squads of orc boys and the dark lance toasted his one truck and the wyches' blast pistol destroyed the other, though he did get the assault the agoniser killed 3 of his tropps and the whole squad of wyches killed 5 so he lost his leadership roll, but other then that was a good game to be DE it seemed

i like the first layout better for the fact that is 4 transports with even tank and infantry defence. as the line "And generally you send them in to charge something that wyches have already engaged and you want to die immediately." i thought i couldnt attack with more then 1 squad at a time?

as for option 2: instead of a 2nd Haemi cant we just get more wyches or get the razorflail and gauntlets to up the raw number of attacks? because like you say the Haemi is wasted in that option for what i would like to use him for it seems.

as for the ideas of what they will do thanks alot! its kind of what i thought about but didnt really clue in i guess until the game today how to truly use my initiative and range to my advantage.

as for the talos..... i see that its not gonna be of any use as i thought it might be..... though i did order it and now it will be a dust collector unless i can find a tactic that works for it. the origonal idea was to place my troops and hopefully push the enemy back and surround them into a courner then the talos moved in and killed things everywhere ( dreamin of perfect senarios) but i dont think that will happen at all lol

You can absolutely charge something with two squads, or charge two enemy squads with one of yours if they're close together. Check out the main rulebook page 41 "Multiple Combats" and the top right of page 34 "Assaulting Multiple Enemy Units". In fact, a common tactic with haywire wyches is to go for the multi-assault. Try to get a tank and some infantry into combat with one squad of wyches. The infantry lock the wyches in combat (so they can't be shot on the opponent's turn) and the wyches then haywire the tank, and absorb the infantry hits with that well known resilience. Usually you want the hekatrix to engage the infantry though, to take advantage of that agoniser.

You're right about the haemi being wasted. You can get more wyches. And special wyche weapons if you want. I personally don't like them, and if I do take them I tend to only take a single shardnet. I was thinking of paying the points now so you've got him in future games to deploy with wyches.

Sorcererbob wrote:You can absolutely charge something with two squads, or charge two enemy squads with one of yours if they're close together. Check out the main rulebook page 41 "Multiple Combats" and the top right of page 34 "Assaulting Multiple Enemy Units". In fact, a common tactic with haywire wyches is to go for the multi-assault. Try to get a tank and some infantry into combat with one squad of wyches. The infantry lock the wyches in combat (so they can't be shot on the opponent's turn) and the wyches then haywire the tank, and absorb the infantry hits with that well known resilience. Usually you want the hekatrix to engage the infantry though, to take advantage of that agoniser.

You're right about the haemi being wasted. You can get more wyches. And special wyche weapons if you want. I personally don't like them, and if I do take them I tend to only take a single shardnet. I was thinking of paying the points now so you've got him in future games to deploy with wyches.

understandable. see everyone thus far has said i can only assault with 1 squad and the other has to sit there and look at them until the end, and then they get their chance. they usually say this when my kabalites are dying horably and the wyches are right there watching them go as for the tank and squad tactic, i tried that once and they just said " you cant do that you have to pick one or the other" so i was under the impression that i couldnt do it for some reason. good to know now same with pain tokens i didnt play the first 3 games with them or combat drugs ( most people "forgot" they said but you can tell that they knew fully well ) so the next round i think i will be much more competitive then now lol next time i come here first then buy the products

Drugs. I always forget bloody drugs Too often I find myself trying to convince my opponent to let me roll my drugs before the first assault to-hits are rolled. Don't underestimate their strength either. Even the +1 WS will make you hit marines on a 3+ instead of a 4+. It makes a difference.

And if you read the rules relating to pain tokens, you'll find that when an independent character joins a squad, the tokens from the IC merge with the tokens from the squad, and both the IC and the squad benefit from the total. When they separate again, tokens must be split evenly, but owner chooses where the last token goes (in the case of odd number of tokens). So start your Haemi with your wyches. He starts with 1 token. The wyches disembark from the raider, and can take that pain token with them. The haemi is left with none, and the wyches have FNP.

With the multi-assaulting... I'm surprised that ork players went with only-one-squad-at-once. Orks tend to charge as much stuff into combat as they can. Low quality hits, but the massive quantity makes up for it. 40 boyz swinging twice, thrice or even four times is very painful. Also, a rule that I didn't understand for ages and ages is that when you have multiple squads in combat you total the entire wounds done by the DE team vs the total wounds done by the other team. But if you open your book to those pages I referenced before when you're doing it, you'll be fine

EDIT: just got off a graveyard and spelling was worse then usual

hmmmm i will have to remember that one i think lol i just think they wanted to kill off my kabalites and didnt want to die from my 6 wyches left over with FNP. when talking to a few of the people there, they are saying that they are actually scared of wyches specially when they get higher pain tokens. BTW what does the 2nd and 3rd tokens acually do and why are they useful for getting?