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Any help here would be appreciated guys:

My Necron buddy is adamant that a S6+ template/blast weapon will NOT kill 2 scarab bases for every failed save. I have explained this to him:

"Make save (if possible)
Determine wounds caused
Distribute wounds, removing models where possible.

Thus, if you've taken 5 unsaved wounds that cause ID, they are doubled to ten and you MUST remove 10 bases. "

However, he says:

"Before necorn release it was favouring the scarabs taking 1 instant death now people are saying the other way just beacuse scarabs eat tanks for breakfast."

Basically, he is stating that this is not the case, because "that's the way everyone used to play it" and he claims that they are changing their take on the rules for their own advantage.

So Dakka, am I right on this issue?

Thanks,

Iranna.

Yes, that's how it works. People playing it wrong before is no excuse for not playing it right now.

i have seen both sides to the argument, ive been kinda wondering too, just havnt sat down and re-read the rules to confirm what i think is what should be.

Both sides? "that's not how it was played before, so doing it that way is wrong" isn't an argument.

You are correct.

1. Roll to hit
2. Roll to wound
3. Take saves if applicable, unsaved wounds go to step 4
4. Since they are vulnerable to blasts/templates each unsaved wound is doubled to two
5. All unsaved wounds remove whole models as per page 26 of the BRB

Scarabs should avoid bunching up with plasma cannons, flamestorm cannons, demolisher cannons and other nasty blast/template weapons around.

Swarms take an additional wound for every wound caused by a template or blast, if these are ID then it removes a base. So in short say 1 wound is rolled however due to swarm rules this is now 2 wounds, if its ID then its 2 bases. Thus 1 wound rolled removes 2 bases.

You are right.

pop a base as Str 6 kill a second base, it is the key to wiping scarab farm, yriel can sometimes singlehandedly wipe out a scarab farm split him off, move, fleet, charge, they have to move in and then pop his str 6 once per game large blast... bye bye scarabs even those not under the template usually due to extra wounds

Assuming you're using Eldar, if he keeps rejecting in favour of how it was played before, tell him that you'll use you Skimmers with the 4th edition rules because that's how they were played before.

From what i've heard of Eldar skimmers in 4th, he'll change his tune pretty quickly.

ive read this topic and notice on thing. you all double the wounds then instant kill. it says they happen at the EXACT same time. so you could do instant first then have a spare wound. also i think i am right in saying when you take an unsaved wound the wound is already on a base when it is doubled so the single base is taking 2 instant deaths right?

the way i ready it 1 base dies.

@avatar720 thats a bit blunt. from what i ready this guy is keeping to how he saw everyone play it back before necrons update but still 5th edition. this means he could go back to like 1st edition and use overwatch on his army then.

none the less the rule book isnt clear or this argument wouldnt happen so ill wait ans see what this thread brings

destuctir wrote:also i think i am right in saying when you take an unsaved wound the wound is already on a base when it is doubled so the single base is taking 2 instant deaths right?

Wrong. It's only when you come to actually removing the casualties that wounds are assigned to specific models. Before that, they are just assigned en masse to wound groups. Or in the case of non-complex units, you just have a floating mass of wounds that have yet to be assigned to anyone.

When you get to casualty removal, you have a number of Instant Death wounds, for which you need to remove a single model for each wound. Because of the VtB rule, you have twice as many of these as you would have normally. Because the scarabs are all the same, you don't assign wounds to models... you just remove a base for each Instant Death wound.

So if 5 ID wounds are inflicted on the unit, you double that to 10 for VtB, and so remove 10 bases.

destuctir wrote:ive read this topic and notice on thing. you all double the wounds then instant kill. it says they happen at the EXACT same time. so you could do instant first then have a spare wound. also i think i am right in saying when you take an unsaved wound the wound is already on a base when it is doubled so the single base is taking 2 instant deaths right?

the way i ready it 1 base dies.

@avatar720 thats a bit blunt. from what i ready this guy is keeping to how he saw everyone play it back before necrons update but still 5th edition. this means he could go back to like 1st edition and use overwatch on his army then.

none the less the rule book isnt clear or this argument wouldnt happen so ill wait ans see what this thread brings

Except they don't happen at the "EXACT" same time? You remove models at the end of the sequence, AFTER you have made saves and distributed wounds. The Doubling of wounds happens before you are forced to remove whole bases thanks to Instant Death.

You read it wrong.

As rigeld2 said: "that's not how it was played before, so doing it that way is wrong" isn't an argument.

It's perfectly clear if you'd care to read it properly.

Iranna.

TBH no wounds have been allocated to individual models they are allocated to the entire squad since they are all alike. The scarabs are all the same.

So you have x wounds to save, you fail y of them, you now have 2y wounds to have been done to the unit and they are instant kills. So take off 2y models.
As with simple wound allocation you take off a model until you run out of wounds to take. Way I see it if you have a horde of swarm models with 1 wound and you have 5 unsaved wounds you loose 10 models.

were does it say ID comes last can i ask. in my rue book it says if a model suffers an unsaved wound it takes instant death and if a model suffers an unsaved wound it is doubled


Automatically Appended Next Post:
YES! i jsut founf the clencher. it says an unsaved wound causes instant death. but for vulnerable to balsts it says an unsaved wound becomes 2 wounds. not unsaved not meeting conditions for ID

so one dies and 1 takes a wound

Remove Casualties, which is where ID comes into play, is after Wounds have been calculated, oddly enough

Instant Death comes last because it directly changes how wounds are applied.

Ordinarily you just apply wounds to each model until they die, and then move on to the next. Instant Death changes that, by forcing you to remove a whole model for each wound.

So you have 5 unsaved blast wounds. Being a swarm doubles that to 10. Ordinarily, you would apply those wounds to a base at a time, removing a base each time you assign its full complement of wounds. Instant Death instead forces you to remove a full base for each wound.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

destuctir wrote:YES! i jsut founf the clencher. it says an unsaved wound causes instant death. but for vulnerable to balsts it says an unsaved wound becomes 2 wounds. not unsaved not meeting conditions for ID

so one dies and 1 takes a wound

Sorry, you might need to go back and show your working on that one... Because it doesn't make any sense so far.

If one wound is doubled, and that wound as an ID wound, then the duplicate created by it being doubled will also be an ID wound.

well i will show my working

"if a mdel with the VtB speacial rule takes an unsaved wound from a blast/template it is doubled to 2 wounds"

"if a model suffers an unsaved wound from a weapon with a strength of double or more the models toughness it is killed outright and immediately removed from the game as a casualty"

it says it becomes 2 wounds but they arent unsaved which is needed for ID to work. so the first is still unsaved but the second isnt so ID doesnt take effect

destuctir wrote:well i will show my working

"if a mdel with the VtB speacial rule takes an unsaved wound from a blast/template it is doubled to 2 wounds"

"if a model suffers an unsaved wound from a weapon with a strength of double or more the models toughness it is killed outright and immediately removed from the game as a casualty"

it says it becomes 2 wounds but they arent unsaved which is needed for ID to work. so the first is still unsaved but the second isnt so ID doesnt take effect

... What? If you suffer an unsaved wound, it's doubled and each causes ID... Because theyre both unsaved.

Why would one not be unsaved?

They are both unsaved. If a single unsaved wound is doubled, what do you have? Two unsaved wounds.

Check the multiple wound units for saves, that tells you how to do it, after wounds are decided ie after armour saves which is when you double the number of unsaved wounds.

The 1 unsaved wound becomes 2 unsaved wounds because of Vulnerable to blast.

To say that the extra wound is not an unsaved wound is incorrect.

So as this comes up over and over again, I'll quote myself (quoting myself):

Lordhat wrote:6.... I'll post an explanation when I can find it from a couple years ago. Here it is.... the rules quotes are from 4th ed. but still aplicable; Just substitute page numbers and rules changes where necessary:

EDIT: The only time I can see this NOT working this way is VTB units with unique models, the unique models would have their wounds doubled but those wounds would not affect the rest of the unit. Otherwise this argument works, as very little about this process has changed with 100% homogenous units. Also note BGB pg.26 : " If amongst the unsaved wounds there are some that cause instant death, the player must first, if possible, remove one unwounded model for each unsaved wound that causes instant death, and then....."

Lordhat wrote:

OK It's obvious we need to go through the process step by step.

We'll skip rolling to hit and wound and save, since we're dealing with wounds.

1. roll to hit
2. roll to wound
3. roll to save
4. remove casualties

BGB Pg.26: "When a unit suffers wounding hits, each will affect different model - you cannot claim that all the hits strike a single model."

Simple enough till you read pg.27: "When a unit contains several multiple wound models, and those models take wounds,  you must remove whole multiple wound models where possible - wounds may not be 'spread around' to avoid removing models."

These two seem to conflict with each other. Now we take a look at the Instant Death box on pg.27: "For example a Space Marine Captain is Toughness 4 and has 2 wounds. Ordinarily he could survive being wounded once before he was removed as a casualty. However, if he were to have the misfortune to be wounded by a krak missile (strength 8 - normally used for knocking out battle tanks), he would become a casualty IMMEDIATELY because the missile's strength is double his toughness - he just isn't that tough."

No help there seemingly except for the part which I emboldened. Next we look at vulnerable to Blasts/templates rule on pg 76:  "Some units are especially vulnerable to blast eapons and template weapons. If the unit is a vehicle then each hit counts as two hits. If the unit is a non-vehicle, then each unsaved wound counts as two wounds rather than one"

The reason for the different colors will become obvious next.

Ok we now have a swarm unit which suffers a strike from a double toughness blast, resulting in 3 wounds to the unit after saves. We now double those unsaved wounds to the unit per the Vulnerables to blasts rule. Now we assign the wounds to models one wound at a time, applying instant death immediately, to avoid spreading the wounds around to avoid removing models.

So according to this scenario you would lose 6 models from the unit.

This is just my interperetation of the RAW.

destuctir wrote:it says it becomes 2 wounds but they arent unsaved which is needed for ID to work. so the first is still unsaved but the second isnt so ID doesnt take effect

How is the second not unsaved? Did you pass a save against the second wound?

It doesn't need to say that the second wound is unsaved. If you didn't save against it, it is an unsaved wound.

This is why I laughed at Scarab farms when Necrons came out. Land Raider Redeemer moving at Cruising Speed > Scarab Swarm.

............ i give up most people here are ignoring my points to the 2 people who didnt just rule nazi me thank you for your opinions and rule explenations. it makes sense your way indeffinetly.

none the less iranna has said the rule is clear.

i hope you side with me here. surely it isnt clear if this argument shows up so much?

We are not ignoring the points.

We are showing you how the points are incorrect.

You double each unsaved wound to two unsaved wounds as per P.76 Vulnerable to Blast/Template.

You have to total up how many wounds you suffer before removing casualties.

And for each wound suffered, because the wounds cause ID, you must remove a base for each unsaved wound.

Yeah I never understood the scarab farm hype either with twin lash, 7 plasma cannons, and a battle cannon. Sometimes they much a dread or a rhino, but come on, you remove handfulls of the suckers at a time, and they can't even land a wound on a plague marine.

but they can still eat your armor even if you fnp it away. and your also in a tar pit yeah. scarab farm is not amazing but with supporting elements it doesn't need to be

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:but they can still eat your armor even if you fnp it away

That is arguable, however, we do not need another 15 page "FNP vs 'X'" thread.

I won't bother to get the exact quotes due to lazyness, but you only remove a single base from a str 6 template. In effect, the model takes it's save, and fails it, thus getting instant deathed, but it takes another instant death hit as well. It's silly, but that's what happens.