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I'am not a comic buff, but aren't they meant to be founding members of the avengers whilst hawkeye n black widow aren't?

Not very visual, hard to see two tiny folks in the middle of a mass battle, not too famous, requires adding 2 more origins while Hawkeye and Black Widow just require 'SHIELD agents'.

Giant Man however, he would have been epic!

In any case it falls to the producers and director to make those calls.

Comic book film adaptions tend to go with well known, gritty, or realistic characters. Ant man and Wasp don't meet any of those criteria.

Totalwar1402 wrote:I'am not a comic buff, but aren't they meant to be founding members of the avengers whilst hawkeye n black widow aren't?

When they are in their tiny form, Im assuming their molecular structure also adjust accordingly?

If so, if they are in the busy street of New York, chances of them getting killed by a random pigeon is too great.

There's also the whole "domestic violence" issue from the Ultimates comic...

IIRC, Hulk wasn't there either. the Avengers tried using spidey to convince him to join, but he misinterpreted their intentions and refused to go after the Hulk or join the Avengers at first.

Because they're not particularly recognizable by wider audiences, their powers are consistently changing and are lame and they have a comic book history of spousal abuse. They would of gone with the Black Panther or Doctor Strange if they wanted to add other old avengers. The Black Panther could support his own film series, but African American lead action movies are generally considered financially risky so short of some sort of Avengers led surge in MARVELs Bravery I doubt we'll see one. They have their A-Listers already, they don't need more.


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streamdragon wrote:There's also the whole "domestic violence" issue from the Ultimates comic...

That predates the ultimates line and the 616 universe's Pym isn't a particularly good or honorable guy anymore either. The Pyms have always been marvels little go to "drama" couple.

Too many characters. They want add in the Pym's (and Ultron, and therefore Vision) later down the line.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Too many characters. They want add in the Pym's (and Ultron, and therefore Vision) later down the line.

I can see Pym being used as a support scientist character who would ex machina develop ultron, but not as an actual hero. His abilities are too silly for the big screen.

They're doing an Ant-Man film... don't really know why, but they are.

But yes, his abilities as Ant-Man are kinda silly. His abilities as Giant Man/Goliath, different story. And Wasp can shoot energy blasts, so that makes her useful. Plus I think having a couple with a bad relationship would actually make for something different in a film series like this.

They're doing an Ant-Man film... don't really know why, but they are.

Thats the irredeemable ant man. It's a parody comic about a really scummy shield agent who steals the ant man armor so that he can look at women in the shower. Everything goes wrong for the guy, it's actually a pretty fun read. Much better than the crap that usually stars Ant Man. It's self contained and is actually pretty good movie material with some small edits. I also heard that project had been scrapped/put on hold.

But yes, his abilities as Ant-Man are kinda silly. His abilities as Giant Man/Goliath, different story. And Wasp can shoot energy blasts, so that makes her useful. Plus I think having a couple with a bad relationship would actually make for something different in a film series like this.

Everyone already has a bad relationship with everyone in Whedon stories. It's not really needed. The Giant man power is a little more justifiable on screen, but giants don't work very well in motion. They look silly on the big screen and it's hard to find ways to make them seem threatening or capable in a serious way. Imagine if the last half hour of avengers had a 500 foot tall dude running around kicking things. Even in a movie with thor and the hulk that would of broken suspension of disbelief.

ShumaGorath wrote:

They're doing an Ant-Man film... don't really know why, but they are.

Thats the irredeemable ant man. It's a parody comic about a really scummy shield agent who steals the ant man armor so that he can look at women in the shower. Everything goes wrong for the guy, it's actually a pretty fun read. Much better than the crap that usually stars Ant Man. It's self contained and is actually pretty good movie material with some small edits. I also heard that project had been scrapped/put on hold.

But yes, his abilities as Ant-Man are kinda silly. His abilities as Giant Man/Goliath, different story. And Wasp can shoot energy blasts, so that makes her useful. Plus I think having a couple with a bad relationship would actually make for something different in a film series like this.

Everyone already has a bad relationship with everyone in Whedon stories. It's not really needed. The Giant man power is a little more justifiable on screen, but giants don't work very well in motion. They look silly on the big screen and it's hard to find ways to make them seem threatening or capable in a serious way. Imagine if the last half hour of avengers had a 500 foot tall dude running around kicking things. Even in a movie with thor and the hulk that would of broken suspension of disbelief.

*twitch*

Would HAVE. Would HAVE gone. Not would OF. This is bugging me now.

...sorry, I have nothing else to add. Just being a grammar Nazi. I was going to mention that Ant-Man is getting his own film, but it's already been said in here.

ShumaGorath wrote:Everyone already has a bad relationship with everyone in Whedon stories.

Ok, whoa now. Stop, stop, stop. I'm separating this from a 'Whedon' film. I'm not talking antagonistic/snarky, I'm talking an actual bad relationship - something that's mutually destructive and leaves the people worse at the end. It's not pretty, but it's something different for all these larger than life characters.

And yeah, a giant man would look pretty silly, but Hank's story always seems to be about learning that size doesn't matter (to put it in the broadest possible terms) because every incarnation I've seen of him ends up with him losing badly despite his size (big or small), because his Pym Particle/size changing stuff is nothing but a crutch for his own insecurities and failings. That's a kind of conflict, and can make for an interesting story.

Locclo wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

They're doing an Ant-Man film... don't really know why, but they are.

Thats the irredeemable ant man. It's a parody comic about a really scummy shield agent who steals the ant man armor so that he can look at women in the shower. Everything goes wrong for the guy, it's actually a pretty fun read. Much better than the crap that usually stars Ant Man. It's self contained and is actually pretty good movie material with some small edits. I also heard that project had been scrapped/put on hold.

But yes, his abilities as Ant-Man are kinda silly. His abilities as Giant Man/Goliath, different story. And Wasp can shoot energy blasts, so that makes her useful. Plus I think having a couple with a bad relationship would actually make for something different in a film series like this.

Everyone already has a bad relationship with everyone in Whedon stories. It's not really needed. The Giant man power is a little more justifiable on screen, but giants don't work very well in motion. They look silly on the big screen and it's hard to find ways to make them seem threatening or capable in a serious way. Imagine if the last half hour of avengers had a 500 foot tall dude running around kicking things. Even in a movie with thor and the hulk that would of broken suspension of disbelief.

*twitch*

Would HAVE. Would HAVE gone. Not would OF. This is bugging me now.

...sorry, I have nothing else to add. Just being a grammar Nazi. I was going to mention that Ant-Man is getting his own film, but it's already been said in here.

Neither one works particularly well grammatically and both are just artifacts of regional dialects.


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H.B.M.C. wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:Everyone already has a bad relationship with everyone in Whedon stories.

Ok, whoa now. Stop, stop, stop. I'm separating this from a 'Whedon' film. I'm not talking antagonistic/snarky, I'm talking an actual bad relationship - something that's mutually destructive and leaves the people worse at the end. It's not pretty, but it's something different for all these larger than life characters.

And yeah, a giant man would look pretty silly, but Hank's story always seems to be about learning that size doesn't matter (to put it in the broadest possible terms) because every incarnation I've seen of him ends up with him losing badly despite his size (big or small), because his Pym Particle/size changing stuff is nothing but a crutch for his own insecurities and failings. That's a kind of conflict, and can make for an interesting story.

I don't think the industry is ready for that kind of big budget deconstruction of an "iconic" character and it's not generally what superhero buffs go to theatres to see. We already had kickass. Pyms not a particularly popular character specifically because he's a bag of insecurities and ex machinas with a bad superpower. There are much better cautionary tales of power and tales about using powers as a way to hide social dysfunction. The way it plays out with ant man just isn't fun or particularly interesting. It's always been fairly mishandled in the comics themselves. I think I much prefer Pym as a silver age 'Science!' character to his "gritty" modern foundation. Flaws are only fun when they're well done, his aren't. He's just sort of pitiable.

Yeah i suppose giants aren't that good in animation now that I think about it (ps wasp also has giant powers). I mean the cartoon I watched with them in, plays on the whole people underestimate them type thing when they're tiny n wasp was quite funny in that. Yeah I guess the powers just don't work well with audience or on screen. More origin stories would have clutered the film, I agree, but I was actually quite struck how much time Black Widow and Hawkeye seemed to get with a whole sub-plot about their background.

I love the Pyms personally but ive been a comic fan since my dad bought me some secret wars comics when I was about six.

I do think they are a little hokey though, like many of the heroes and villains from the golden age of comics. Stuff like The Serpent squad and Stilt man really is a relic from the 60s in my book, and they only go down well with fat guys in Star Trek t shirts, even I, geek that I am, wouldn't like to see such things in the cinema.

So I think they made the right call, spies and soldiers are one thing, but you can only tolerate so much spandex and hokeyness in celluloid.

mattyrm wrote: I love the Pyms personally but ive been a comic fan since my dad bought me some secret wars comics when I was about six.

I do think they are a little hokey though, like many of the heroes and villains from the golden age of comics. Stuff like The Serpent squad and Stilt man really is a relic from the 60s in my book, and they only go down well with fat guys in Star Trek t shirts, even I, geek that I am, wouldn't like to see such things in the cinema.

So I think they made the right call, spies and soldiers are one thing, but you can only tolerate so much spandex and hokeyness in celluloid.

Yeah, I didn't like how they made Caps suit more comic book like than his WW2 one which was fairly tolerable. Personally I would only have cared to see wasp in the film since it might have worked as comic relief and you can always change certain things. Get rid of the bug wings, change the name or simply call her Jan, make her wear less spandex clothing (although they still put Black Widow in a cat-suit); would probably have to avoid her using the giant power as well.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

And yeah, a giant man would look pretty silly, but Hank's story always seems to be about learning that size doesn't matter (to put it in the broadest possible terms) because every incarnation I've seen of him ends up with him losing badly despite his size (big or small), because his Pym Particle/size changing stuff is nothing but a crutch for his own insecurities and failings. That's a kind of conflict, and can make for an interesting story.

Well said. His Ultimates incarnation was the only time I ever found him interesting. Though it did suffer a bit from franchisitis, where they have to keep around because he's part of the franchise no matter how many dumb things he does.

I would have liked to see Vision and Scarlet Witch.

Y'know, what with Hank Pym going through a dozen superhero names, and a dozen power sets over the years I finally realized, he's the Aquaman of Marvel. The character no one can get rid of because he's been around so long but no one can make work either.

Kudos to Mark Millar for actually embracing his loserdom and making it work in the Ultimates.

Eh. I think they only made room for 1 or 2 "unknown to the public.

So they gave it to Hawkeye.

All the other characters have at least appeared in other films. (I think)

Hawkeye (who IIRC never uses that name) actually showed up for like a pico second in Thor.

Whats the next film after Avengers?

As I'd guess the chance of any new Avengers team mate will somehow pop up in that one, give some screen time before joining the Avengers in the second?

Iron Man 3 is about to start filming, and there's rumors of Nick Fury film.

Haven't heard of anything else.

Pym is smalltime. Squirrel Girl should be next. Now that we have the Avengers there is no reason we can't have The Great Lakes Avengers.

I honestly believed that squirel girl was a sarcastic joke told to me by a friend and used to torment me whenever I tried to do a Heroes RPG. Insisted she was the most powerful hero ever and defeated Galactus.


....

Please tell me that didn't actually happen.

CT GAMER wrote:I would have liked to see Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch show their incestuous relationship on screen since this is taking large chunks of source from the Ultimate universe.

Fixed that for you.

Now, THAT'S a relationship that would cause issues on the screen and get people motivated to watch.