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Can you attach Zogwort to a squad of Stormboys and Zagstruck and benefit from the deep strike with Zogwort in the unit?

Does Zogwort have Deep Strike in his rules? There's your answer.

Valkyrie wrote:Does Zogwort have Deep Strike in his rules? There's your answer.

No, but neither do the Stormboys or Zagstruck.

Rule just says that his unit must deep strike in.

NickTheButcher wrote:

Valkyrie wrote:Does Zogwort have Deep Strike in his rules? There's your answer.

No, but neither do the Stormboys or Zagstruck.

Rule just says that his unit must deep strike in.

Page 52, main rulebook, gives Stormboyz and Zaggy the deep strike rule. So yes, they DO have it. ButZogwort does not. Satisfied yet?

don_mondo wrote:

NickTheButcher wrote:

Valkyrie wrote:Does Zogwort have Deep Strike in his rules? There's your answer.

No, but neither do the Stormboys or Zagstruck.

Rule just says that his unit must deep strike in.

Page 52, main rulebook, gives Stormboyz and Zaggy the deep strike rule. So yes, they DO have it. ButZogwort does not. Satisfied yet?

Page 52 doesn't say that they get Deep Strike.....So no, I'm not satisfied.

NickTheButcher wrote:

don_mondo wrote:

NickTheButcher wrote:

Valkyrie wrote:Does Zogwort have Deep Strike in his rules? There's your answer.

No, but neither do the Stormboys or Zagstruck.

Rule just says that his unit must deep strike in.

Page 52, main rulebook, gives Stormboyz and Zaggy the deep strike rule. So yes, they DO have it. ButZogwort does not. Satisfied yet?

Page 52 doesn't say that they get Deep Strike.....So no, I'm not satisfied.

They're jump infantry, right?
What can jump infantry do?

The original question rephrased: Can an independent character without deep strike enter the game through deep strike: No, Deep strike is not conferred to the character Main rules p 48.

I think the hidden question is:

1. on the result of a 'ere we go can zagstruk charge after they reenter the battlefield via deepstrike.

p63 ork book:Zagstruk and da Vlucha boyz must enter the battle via deepstrike and may not shoot...they may assault.

However, any attached character would not gain the benefit of this rule because it does not give them permission to. This means that in the event of a ere' we go, they would not be able to assault because Zogwort does not have this priveledge.

NickTheButcher wrote:

don_mondo wrote:

NickTheButcher wrote:

Valkyrie wrote:Does Zogwort have Deep Strike in his rules? There's your answer.

No, but neither do the Stormboys or Zagstruck.

Rule just says that his unit must deep strike in.

Page 52, main rulebook, gives Stormboyz and Zaggy the deep strike rule. So yes, they DO have it. ButZogwort does not. Satisfied yet?

Page 52 doesn't say that they get Deep Strike.....So no, I'm not satisfied.

You might want to look again. I'd recommend the last line of the Movement paragraph. Ya know, the one that says "All jump infantry units may enter the battle by ‘deep strike’, as explained on page 95." Now I know it might be hard to work through, but let's give it a try.

1. Are Zagstruck and Stormboyz Jump Infantry? Yes.
2. Do Jump Infantry have Deep Strike? Yes
3. Does this mean that Zaggie and his stormboyz have Deep Strike. Yes.
4. Does Zogwort have a jump pack/rokkit pack or any rule that makes him jump infantry or allows him to deep strike. No.
5. Can Zogwort deep strike in with Zagstruck and his Stormboyz.? No.

Main rules FAQ:
Q: Can a unit Deep Strike if only some of the models in
it have the deep strike special rule? (p95)
A: No.

Technically it would be an illegal deployment because they cannot enter because zogwort would take away deep strike, and they couldn't enter because they couldn't deep strike.

Ruphi wrote:Technically it would be an illegal deployment because they cannot enter because zogwort would take away deep strike, and they couldn't enter because they couldn't deep strike.

Yep, which means the entire unit would be destroyed per this FAQ:

Q: What happens when a unit arrives from reserves but
is unable to completely move onto the board? (p94)
A: The unit is destroyed and removed from play.

now the real question is does MUST must happen even though in this scenario cant

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:now the real question is does MUST must happen even though in this scenario cant

What?

Normally can't overrides must, but I really have no idea what your sentence is trying to say.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:now the real question is does MUST must happen even though in this scenario cant

Yes, they MUST deep strike, and then since one model is unable to do so, the unit is destroyed per the FAQ I already quoted.

That's not correct.

You may not place a unit containing Zogwort in deep strike reserves in the first place - you have to declare deep strikers before the game actually starts.
Thus, even though Zagstrukk and his unit must deep strike, they can not be declared as deep strikers, and would move onto the board from your table edge as regular reserves.

When Zogwort rolls 'ere we go, the unit would be unable to assault, because the rule explicitly names Zagstrukk and his Vulcha Boyz, just like Ruphi said.

Jidmah, except the rules state that Zagstrukk and his unit must deep strike. They have no option not to. Since they cannot with Zogwort attached, the unit is unable to come in from reserves.

That's wrong.

Must deep strike is not the same as the can not arrive via any other method than deep striking.

Can't beats must.

If a unit is forced to do something, but at the same time unable to do so, you ignore that forced action. Just like tank bustaz can shoot non-vehicle units when the can not shoot vehicles for whatever reason.

Sorry jidmah, gotta disagree with you. There is no allowance to not do something that you MUST do. If a unit MUST arrive from reserves in a particular fashion, whether by deep strike, Marbo or the Callidus special arrival, Nid Lictors or Ymgarl stealers, well, that is how they MUST arrive regardless. They cannot just suddenly decide to walk on or whatever. If you don't think things through and make it impossible for them to arrive, oops, too bad for you. And yes, MUST deep strike is the same as not being able to arrive via any method other than deep strike.

Happyjew wrote:Jidmah, except the rules state that Zagstrukk and his unit must deep strike. They have no option not to. Since they cannot with Zogwort attached, the unit is unable to come in from reserves.

I think the point he was making was that the combo would be illegal anyway, so the question of whether or not they can actually come on is somewhat moot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jidmah wrote:That's wrong.

Must deep strike is not the same as the can not arrive via any other method than deep striking.

No, it pretty much is, unless you're given some sort of alternative.

If a unit is forced to do something, but at the same time unable to do so, you ignore that forced action. Just like tank bustaz can shoot non-vehicle units when the can not shoot vehicles for whatever reason

Tankbustas can shoot other targets because their rules only force them to shoot at vehicles under certain conditions. They have another option.

If so, then I misunderstood his comment about ignoring a forced action...........................

don_mondo wrote:Sorry jidmah, gotta disagree with you. There is no allowance to not do something that you MUST do. If a unit MUST arrive from reserves in a particular fashion, whether by deep strike, Marbo or the Callidus special arrival, Nid Lictors or Ymgarl stealers, well, that is how they MUST arrive regardless.

I agree up to here.

They cannot just suddenly decide to walk on or whatever. If you don't think things through and make it impossible for them to arrive, oops, too bad for you.

"Oops, bad for you" is neither a rule, nor an instruction what to do. Deciding the unit is destroyed is nothing but pulled out of thin air.

And yes, MUST deep strike is the same as not being able to arrive via any method other than deep strike.

Because you just arbitrarily decided that? If "must" were the same as "you are unable to do it any other way", units with rage would be unable to move if your opponent has no models on the board (reserve, drop pod or daemon army). Because by your definition they are unable to move anywhere unless it's closer to your enemy.

The real question is whether you are allowed to attach an IC to a unit if it prevents them from performing a required option.

Jidmah wrote:. Deciding the unit is destroyed is nothing but pulled out of thin air.

Actually, it's pulled from an FAQ...........................

Edit: Didn't arbitrarily decide anything. Must deploy in a certain manner means just that (guess I didn't misunderstand your ealrier post, after all). If somwone is foolish enough to attach an IC to a unit that it is unable to deploy with, the rules allow only one possible result. In this instance, the unit MUST deploy by deep strike, so zaggy and stormboyz deep strike and then we realize that zoggy can't deploy. Per FAQ, if the entire unit is unable to be placed on the table, unit is destroyed. Very simple, actually.
As for rage, well, start another thread.

insaniak wrote:No, it pretty much is, unless you're given some sort of alternative.

The alternative is moving onto the board. They never lost this ability, they are simply forced to use another option. If a mission disallows deep-striking, the would have to move on from reserves, too.

If a unit is forced to do something, but at the same time unable to do so, you ignore that forced action. Just like tank bustaz can shoot non-vehicle units when the can not shoot vehicles for whatever reason

Tankbustas can shoot other targets because their rules only force them to shoot at vehicles under certain conditions. They have another option.

Jidmah wrote:The real question is whether you are allowed to attach an IC to a unit if it prevents them from performing a required option.

Which the rules are pretty silent on. RAW there is no rules.
HIWPI the Nid FAQ says this:

Page 41 – Chameleonic Skin, second paragraph
Add “Independent Characters cannot join a Lictor
Brood before it arrives from reserve.” between the first
two sentences.

Which to me says that if you have a special deployment requirement, and ICs must be able to meet that same requirement to join before deployment.

Although interestingly, Ymgarls don't have that sentence. But the Dormant rule specifically calls out Ymgarl Genestealers in a couple of places, meaning an attached IC wouldn't benefit.

Jidmah wrote:

insaniak wrote:No, it pretty much is, unless you're given some sort of alternative.

The alternative is moving onto the board. They never HAD this ability,

Fixed that for you. Due to their special rules, they don't have 'moving onto the board' as an option.

don_mondo wrote:

Jidmah wrote:. Deciding the unit is destroyed is nothing but pulled out of thin air.

Actually, it's pulled from an FAQ...........................

You mean this one?

Q: What happens when a unit arrives from reserves but
is unable to completely move onto the board? (p94)
A: The unit is destroyed and removed from play.

How does that says that models not being able take a mandatory action to enter the board are automatically destroyed?

Besides, if you were right you are neither allowed to put the unit into regular reserves, nor into deep striking reserves, nor deploy them. Thus they would never arrive from reserves.

Jidmah wrote:

don_mondo wrote:

Jidmah wrote:. Deciding the unit is destroyed is nothing but pulled out of thin air.

Actually, it's pulled from an FAQ...........................

You mean this one?

Q: What happens when a unit arrives from reserves but
is unable to completely move onto the board? (p94)
A: The unit is destroyed and removed from play.

How does that says that models not being able take a mandatory action to enter the board are automatically destroyed?

Besides, if you were right you are neither allowed to put the unit into regular reserves, nor into deep striking reserves, nor deploy them. Thus they would never arrive from reserves.

Sure, they shouldn't be allowed to be placed into any sort of reserves, couldn't agree more. And if my opponent were to state he were doing so I would try to explain to him why it's not allowed. This is along the lines of what if your opponent is being hardheaded and insisting on trying it anyways.
As for the how does it say, well, read it. Is the unit able to completely move onto the board. Yes or no? If we assume that Zogwort is unable to arrive with Zaggy and unit due to they must deep strike and his inability to deep strike (and that zaggy and unit are unable to use any other method of arriving from reserves) , then the answer is no. And what does the FAQ say in that circumstance? Unit is destroyed.

I know it is not written anywhere, but in the case with Zagstruck since they have special deployment rules it supports the idea that they may not be joined by independent characters that cannot deep strike.

The support for the unit being destroyed is along a similar line of thought "when a reserve unit arives it must move onto the table from the controlling players own table edge (unless it is deep striking or outflanking)" main rules p 94. In that game where the player infiltrated the board edge the other opponent couldn't deply via a different method, or come on another edge in their deployment because the must come on from the board edge.

I think the second point is invalid though because of my first notion, however, my first point is not going to be covered in any book to my knowledge, so it is moot.

Jidmah wrote:The alternative is moving onto the board. They never lost this ability, they are simply forced to use another option.

No, they very definitely lost that ability, because Zagstrukk's rule says that they must arrive via Deep Strike. To still have the ability to walk on instead, the rule would have to say something to the effect of 'must arrive via Deep Strike if possible.'

There is no out in the rule. They must arrive by Deep Strike. If they can't, then they can not arrive without breaking that rule.

If a mission disallows deep-striking, the would have to move on from reserves, too.

If a missions disallows Deep Striking, they would be unable to move on at all.

They are not explicitly given the option to shoot infantry. If "must" equals "you can't do anything else" then they would be disallowed from shooting non-vehicles as their only other option would be not shooting at all.

Codex Orks wrote:...If there is no visible vehicle target, the Tankbustas may select a target as normal.

Zagstrukk has no similar way out in his rules. It's Deep Strike or nothing.

Note: there is a scenario where Zogwart CAN enter play through deepstrike.

Example: Zaggstrukk and his unit are already on the table top. Zog's at the beginning of the ork turn rolls to have a psychic ability, he is granted the ability to have one.

During the movement phase he joins. Zaggstrukks unit. He then in the beginning of the Shoot Phase rolls for his Psychic Abilify gaining Ere We go IE he has to use it, passes his test AND then MUST Deepstrike with Zaggstrukk and his Vulcha's.

But that example, he is not destroyed. He would have to deepstrike per the psychic ability with Da Vulcha.

How here's the question: do you let hiim assault after: likely not, he lacks the special ability for Vulcha Assault. But he would still be able to deep strike.

He couldn't assault with them.