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pretre wrote:He couldn't assault with them.

Which means the unit can't assault.
Just like if one guy fires a heavy weapon in the squad, the rest of the squad can't assault.

pretre wrote:He couldn't assault with them.

Correct. I was pointing out a scenario where he would be able to deep strike for the original poster.
However, the unit would then be tethered and not able to use their assault after deep striking rule.

insaniak wrote:No, they very definitely lost that ability, because Zagstrukk's rule says that they must arrive via Deep Strike.

There are no rules to support that. A mandatory action does not make you lose the ability to something else.

The basic rules give Stormboyz with Zagstrukk permission to start the game on the board, enter as regular reserves or enter via deep strike.

Zagstrukks rules force you to pick entering via deep strike. Not a single word takes away those other permissions.

So if you cannot enter via deep strike, those stormboyz still have permission start the game on the board or enter as regular reserves. So in a scenario which disallows deep strikes, Zagstrukk would be able to start on the board or enter from reserves as usual.

As for Zogwort, I would argue that attaching an IC without deep strike rules is a violation of the Zagstrukks Swoop Attack rule (he must deep strike) and thus not allowed. Attaching an IC happens at the same time as declaring reserves(at deployment), so there isn't a timing problem either.

Jidmah wrote:There are no rules to support that. A mandatory action does not make you lose the ability to something else.

It does if that something else has to happen instead of the mandatory action... because performing one of those other actions means that you aren't performing your mandatory action.

There is no way for Zagstrukk to enter the battlefield by any method other than Deep Striking that doesn't break the rule that says that he must deploy via Deep Strike.

Somehow I think Jidmah isn't quite understanding the word 'mandatory'.......................

I think Jidmah is saying in missions where deep striking is not allowed period, then the storm boyz cannot deep strike which means they would deploy as normal (like a custom mission inside a space hulk). I agree with his last point that IC's that do not have deep strike cannot join Zagstruk

Ruphi wrote:I think Jidmah is saying in missions where deep striking is not allowed period, then the storm boyz cannot deep strike which means they would deploy as normal (like a custom mission inside a space hulk).

Yes, that's what he's saying.

He's wrong. There is no allowance in Zagstrukk's rule to deploy by any method other than Deep Striking. It doesn't say to deploy by Deep Strike if possible, or if allowed by the mission. They must deploy by Deep Strike. If they can't do that, then they can't deploy. If they deploy any other way, they have broken the rule that says that they must deploy by Deep Strike.

This isn't a problem in any of the standard missions, since they all allow Deep Striking. If you are creating custom missions that don't allow Deep Striking, you'll simply have to add in a work-around for units that are forced to Deep Strike.

Ruphi wrote:I think Jidmah is saying in missions where deep striking is not allowed period, then the storm boyz cannot deep strike which means they would deploy as normal (like a custom mission inside a space hulk). I agree with his last point that IC's that do not have deep strike cannot join Zagstruk

While you could make a gentlemans agreement to that effect, the rules make no such allowances.

don_mondo wrote:Somehow I think Jidmah isn't quite understanding the word 'mandatory'.......................

So, enlighten me. What part of mandatory removes the ability to do anything else if the mandatory ability cannot be performed. And please include a rules quote this time, rather than using "because I say so" as justification.

Otherwise neither what insaniak nor what you say has any foothold in the rules. By RAW stormboyz are given permission to enter the board regularly and start deployed on the board (see deployment rules if in doubt). Not a single syllable in Zagstrukk's swoop attack takes that away.

If you must stop at a red traffic light, but your brakes have been cut, you can't stop at the traffic light and will keep going.

Jidmah wrote:
So, enlighten me. What part of mandatory removes the ability to do anything else if the mandatory ability cannot be performed. And please include a rules quote this time, rather than using "because I say so" as justification.

So, just so we're clear, you want a rules quote to establish that something being mandatory means that you don't have any choice as to whether or not to do it?

Let us know how that works out for you at the table.

By RAW stormboyz are given permission to enter the board regularly and start deployed on the board (see deployment rules if in doubt). Not a single syllable in Zagstrukk's swoop attack takes that away.

Other than the bit where it says they have to deep strike...

If you must stop at a red traffic light, but your brakes have been cut, you can't stop at the traffic light and will keep going.

And you would have broken the rule that says you have to stop... and since you never had permission to drive through the red light in the first place, that's a reasonably crap analogy.

insaniak wrote:

Jidmah wrote:
So, enlighten me. What part of mandatory removes the ability to do anything else if the mandatory ability cannot be performed. And please include a rules quote this time, rather than using "because I say so" as justification.

So, just so we're clear, you want a rules quote to establish that something being mandatory means that you don't have any choice as to whether or not to do it?

Not having a choice and not having the ability to do something a two completely different things. Which is why the example with the traffic light is spot on.

And you would have broken the rule that says you have to stop... and since you never had permission to drive through the red light in the first place, that's a reasonably crap analogy.

You are able to drive through a red traffic light with intact brakes, but you must stop, at all costs. Because, depending on the traffic light not doing so will kill you, so ignoring that rule is not an option.
If there is no way to perform the mandatory action(stopping), you can't take it and continue as if it didn't exist, ie. there is no red traffic light there.

Nothing crap about that.

Here's what it comes down to: The correct interpretation is the one that breaks no rule.

If you have a rule that says that you must arrive by deep strike, and you instead walk on from the table edge, have you broken a rule?

You didn't break the rule, another rule did. Which is actually pretty common in 40k, just look at fleet allowing you to assault after running, Taleon's player allocating wounds or Zagstrukk having a powerklaw striking at I4.

Any mission that prevents deep striking (or reservers at all) will break that rule, turning a mandatory action into something that simply doesn't work - just like some rules from old codices.

There is no reason to follow a rule doing nothing.

Jidmah wrote:You didn't break the rule, another rule did. Which is actually pretty common in 40k, just look at fleet allowing you to assault after running, Taleon's player allocating wounds or Zagstrukk having a powerklaw striking at I4.

All of your examples don't break rules. They just change them in certain specific situations. You have no corresponding change for Zagstrukk. The mission disallowing deep strike would not give you permission to ignore his rule. The mission rule would hsve to specifically allow units that have to deep strike to ignore that rule... otherwise they have no legal way to deploy.

The mission doesn't break the rule if it gives you no way to follow it. You do that by arbitrarily deciding to do something else instead.

I still thin this is a problem of language. Seriously it is pretty clear from the rules. if it says they must then they must. From the dictionary Be obliged to. Which means they are forced to, and unless you managed to show a rule that says they can ignore their obligation it is not possible.

Jidmah wrote:

don_mondo wrote:Somehow I think Jidmah isn't quite understanding the word 'mandatory'.......................

So, enlighten me. What part of mandatory removes the ability to do anything else if the mandatory ability cannot be performed. And please include a rules quote this time, rather than using "because I say so" as justification.

Otherwise neither what insaniak nor what you say has any foothold in the rules. By RAW stormboyz are given permission to enter the board regularly and start deployed on the board (see deployment rules if in doubt). Not a single syllable in Zagstrukk's swoop attack takes that away.

If you must stop at a red traffic light, but your brakes have been cut, you can't stop at the traffic light and will keep going.

The mandatory part, ie the rule that they MUST enter by deep strike with no allowance to do otherwise? If you are told that you MUST enter a building through door A, do you then have an option to enter through doors B or C, even if door A is locked and the others are open? No, your passcard (ie Zags rules) only allow you to use that one door, and no others. If it stays locked, you don't enter. It's that simple.

Bacms wrote:I still thin this is a problem of language. Seriously it is pretty clear from the rules. if it says they must then they must. From the dictionary Be obliged to. Which means they are forced to, and unless you managed to show a rule that says they can ignore their obligation it is not possible.

If it's clear from the rules, what happens if you have Zagstrukk in your army and you may not use the deep strike (or reserve) rules?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

don_mondo wrote:The mandatory part, ie the rule that they MUST enter by deep strike with no allowance to do otherwise? If you are told that you MUST enter a building through door A, do you then have an option to enter through doors B or C, even if door A is locked and the others are open? No, your passcard (ie Zags rules) only allow you to use that one door, and no others. If it stays locked, you don't enter. It's that simple.

There is a rule that forces you to enter that house. If you are not deploying your storm boyz, you are breaking the rules, too.

If you are forced to enter the house.
You are forced to enter the house via door A
You can not enter the house via door A.

You still may not stay outside of the house. You are breaking two rules that way.

Jidmah wrote:

Bacms wrote:I still thin this is a problem of language. Seriously it is pretty clear from the rules. if it says they must then they must. From the dictionary Be obliged to. Which means they are forced to, and unless you managed to show a rule that says they can ignore their obligation it is not possible.

If it's clear from the rules, what happens if you have Zagstrukk in your army and you may not use the deep strike (or reserve) rules?

That means you can point me to the specific part of the rulebook/codex where it says that Zagstrukk has other option if he can't arrive by deepstrike? If it is not there it doesn't exist. I can say that my Zogwort now has a S10 AP1 large blast every turn that automatically hits because the rules don't say he hasn't?


2012/05/10 11:36:56 Subject: Re:Old Zogwort and Boss Zagstruck
Bacms wrote:
I still thin this is a problem of language. Seriously it is pretty clear from the rules. if it says they must then they must. From the dictionary Be obliged to. Which means they are forced to, and unless you managed to show a rule that says they can ignore their obligation it is not possible.


If it's clear from the rules, what happens if you have Zagstrukk in your army and you may not use the deep strike (or reserve) rules?

don_mondo wrote: wrote:
The mandatory part, ie the rule that they MUST enter by deep strike with no allowance to do otherwise? If you are told that you MUST enter a building through door A, do you then have an option to enter through doors B or C, even if door A is locked and the others are open? No, your passcard (ie Zags rules) only allow you to use that one door, and no others. If it stays locked, you don't enter. It's that simple.

There is a rule that forces you to enter that house. If you are not deploying your storm boyz, you are breaking the rules, too.

If you are forced to enter the house.
You are forced to enter the house via door A
You can not enter the house via door A.

There is no rule that forces you to enter the house. It does say if you do you must enter through door A.

You are aware that you are saying that you can chose to put a unit neither in play nor in reserves and thus prevent it from ever arriving to the game?

Like, any unit?

You might want to check deployment rules.

Jidmah wrote:You are aware that you are saying that you can chose to put a unit neither in play nor in reserves and thus prevent it from ever arriving to the game?

Like, any unit?

You might want to check deployment rules.

Yes I am aware of what I am saying. And no, my comment is only valid to Zagstruck because rules from the unit in the codex takes precedent over the rulebook. So even if the rulebook says normal a unit can arrive both ways the codex says he can only enter the battlefield by deepstrike. The rulebook and codex are also designed to be used with standard missions which always have the deep strike option so there is no need to be a rule for covering a situation that it is not present. If you play with different rules not allowing deepstrike then you break the rules and no rule anywhere covers for that situation for that specific unit. So you will always have to agree with your opponent on a home rule to solve the problem.

also designed to be used with standard missions which always have the deep strike option so there is no need to be a rule for covering a situation that it is not present

A baseless assumption, considering that the basic rulebook itself states the exact opposite, explicitly names deep strike as optional rule and encourages creating own missions. You also overestimate GW's finesse when it comes to game design.

A good deal of battle missions prevent your from deep striking or using reserves. Those are published by games workshop and in heavy use in any GW store I have ever been. Even grand tournaments have missions which disallow deep strikes, like 'ard boyz.

Besides that "must arrive via deep strike" is something different than "can only enter the battlefield via deep strike". Just like "you must stop at a red traffic light" is not the same as "you can only stop at a red traffic light".

Oh and "codex takes precendent over rulebook" would mean that I can deep strike my vulcha boyz from Zagstrukk's plane even if the battle is in a cave. You know, because "can't deep strike" would be superseded, too.

So if a unit has specific deployment restrictions, and you join a model to it that cannot use that method of deployment, the game breaks.

Let's look at precedent to see how to handle this, as the rules don't really cover it.

Tyranid Lictor's have special deployment rules they must follow.
IC's are forbidden from joining a Lictor Brood.

Problem solved, problem stays solved.

Jidmah wrote:

also designed to be used with standard missions which always have the deep strike option so there is no need to be a rule for covering a situation that it is not present

Besides that "must arrive via deep strike" is something different than "can only enter the battlefield via deep strike". Just like "you must stop at a red traffic light" is not the same as "you can only stop at a red traffic light".

No one saying you can't just saying you are breaking the rules by doing it. If you sign a contract that says you must work five days a week nothing is stopping from not not doing. Except you are breaking the contract if you don't, simple as that.
Again argue whatever you want but you need to show a rule saying you can do what you are claiming you can otherwise it is pointless.

Well, I think everyone but Jidmah understands what MUST means, so instead of continuing to go around in circles, someone needs to just lock this thread.

Jidmah wrote:If it's clear from the rules, what happens if you have Zagstrukk in your army and you may not use the deep strike (or reserve) rules?

They are unable to move on to the board, and so are destroyed as per the rulebook FAQ.

Again, though, this is only a problem in non-standard missions.

rigeld2 wrote:So if a unit has specific deployment restrictions, and you join a model to it that cannot use that method of deployment, the game breaks.

Nope, as above, they would simply be unable to deploy and so would be destroyed.

The obvious way to avoid that is to not join ICs to units that have mandatory deployment rules that the IC doesn't share.

Ok, so am I to take away from this somewhat complicated thread that someone thinks you can arrive with Zagstruck and his Vulcha Boyz in a manner other than deepstrike?

ceramice wrote:Ok, so am I to take away from this somewhat complicated thread that someone thinks you can arrive with Zagstruck and his Vulcha Boyz in a manner other than deepstrike?

Yep, that is what at least one preson contends.

Must enter the battle via deep strike. I'd love to get zag on the board immediately, explain this to me.

That's kind of what the last two pages were for...

Are there not several examples in the game where Codex > Big Rule Book? So if that is so, why would Da Vulcha's & Zaggstrukk not trump the big rule book rule?

------------

I understand the idea that the scenario may say you cannot deep strike. But if its a tournment game, that would be out in the open and the players could approach the TO together saying "Hey, here's a descripency how do you rule it?" I am pretty certain most TO's would just cite to walk the unit on instead of simply giving an Ork player a likely 200+ point defecit before the game even starts.

Are there any scenario's out there where you cannot deepstrike in common play?