Zahndrek (Phased Reinforcements) or Ethereal Interception with Veil of Darkness

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**MarkCron**

I did a search in YMDC but didn't see anything recent which addressed the below, so thought I would ask the question.

Deathmarks with a DespairTek (Hod with Veil of Darkness) is a nice combination in the new Necron Codex. the VoD rules in the Codex say "The Cryptek and his unit are removed from the tabletop and immediately Deep Strike back onto the battlefield". There is some other wording but it isn't relevant.

Zahndrek has a special rule "Phased Reinforcements" which says "If Zahndrek is on the battlefield any number of units in reserve that are able to Deep Strike can choose to enter play in the enemy turn, via Deep Strike, immediately after any enemy unit has arrived from reserve, normally during the enemy's movement phase"

The Deathmarks have "Ethereal Interception" which says mostly the same thing as Phased Reinforcements.

So my question is :

I know that the Cryptek doesn't have Deep Strike, but neither of the rules above specifies that they have to have that rule.

If I have a Death and Despair combo (5xDeathmarks, Despairtek with VoD) can I use either Phased Reinforcements or Ethereal Interception to land the combo in the enemy movement phase?

Thanks!

**rigeld2**

If they're in reserves yes - FaQ allows the veil to be used to come in from reserves.

**MarkCron**

Thanks rigeld, but can I bring them in during the Opponents movement phase?

**Lehnsherr**

The Cryptek never gains the ability to Deep Strike. They have a piece of wargear that allows them to move during their own movement phase as if they were deep striking, or arrive from reserve as if they were deep striking.

This is one of those times where counts as just isn't quite good enough to fulfill the entire rule for Etheral Interception.

When arriving by Etheral Interception the Deathmark unit is given permission to deep strike during the opponents turn. The Veil of Darkness has no such permission, and its a piece of wargear that has an ability that is like deep strike, but it does not actually give the deep strike rule to the Cryptek.

The unit may not arrive via deep strike unless all members of the unit have the rule, and seeing as how the Cryptek does not have deep strike, they may not arrive using Etheral Interception.

At least thats how I read the rules.

I posted this in a thread months ago about the same topic. The FAQ allows the VoD to be used while in reserve, but the Cryptek can not actually arrive via deepstrike. It can arrive by use of the VoD, which functions like deepstrike, but its not deepstrike.

The FAQ even clarifies this....
Can a unit of deathmarks with an attached member from a royal court deepstrike?
No. Every model in a unit must have the Deep Strike special rule to do so.

The only reason the Cryptek is able to deploy from reserves with the VoD is because of the FAQ which strictly answers that question. The Deep Strike special rule is not conferred via VoD.

**MarkCron**

Thanks Lensherr, must have missed that thread during my search.

I had read the FAQ but was hoping for at least the Phased Reinforcement to work out.

Disappointing.

**Lehnsherr**

Agreed it is disapointing. I would have liked to have my Deathmarks arrive with an attached Cryptek during enemy turns. Makes for a deadly combo.

As far as the search for the thread goes, the only reason I found it was because I remember posting in it and could search my post history. Don't sweat not being able to find it.

**MarkCron**

Imagine if they could arrive and shoot!!! Please 6th ed, Please???

**Basimpo**

Hm, doesnt phased reinforcements force you to ds any unit in? It says they arrive by deepstrike, not, they only arrive IF they have deepstrike.

**Lehnsherr**

The VoD is what gives the unit permission to arrive via the deepstrike rules. This is an important distinction as the unit does not have the Deep Strike rule. The Deathmarks have it, but they do not confer it to the Cryptek.

PR doesn't actually allow a unit to use VoD, but merely to deepstrike. You are given permission to use a VoD in your own turn for your units to arrive via deep strike but its not the same thing.

So when you check for the PR you are allowed to bring in units that "are able to Deep Strike". The Cryptek unit can't actually Deep Strike. They can VoD which allows them to arrive via the Deep Strike rules, but does not confer the Deep Strike rule.

**Randall Turner**

Hey, wait - guys, I think you've only got this half right.

Phased Reinforcements, all units must be able to deep strike. Deathmarks don't give a joining character the deep strike ability, that's fine too.

But Deathmark units in reserve, with an attached Cryptek or not, may use Ethereal Interception in the enemy's turn and arrive using Deep Strike. I don't think they are required to have the deep strike ability. They are only required to be a Deathmark unit. The entry via Deep Strike is dictated - allowed and required - by the Ethereal Interception special rule. But it's not a Deep Strike. (Not that it matters in the case of a VoD attached, they can essentially Deep Strike in their movement phase too - but EI isn't DS.)

Let me go read that thread. I don't deep strike. Ever. It's like running with scissors, I might be missing something.

Q: Can a veil of darkness be used instead of moving
onto the board when a unit arrives from reserve? (p84)
A: Yes.

Q: Can a unit of Deathmarks with an attached model
from a Royal Court Deep Strike? (p90)
A: No. Every model in a unit must have the Deep Strike
special rule for it to do so.

Edit: Neh, maybe not. I'm shaky on "using the Deep Strike rules" vs. actually deep striking. <shrug> It's still running with scissors.

**Lehnsherr**

The key to that FAQ is the fact that they capitalized and bolded the term Deep Strike. Its a direct reference to the rule for Deep Strike. Without the rule, you cannot deep strike.

Furthermore the FAQ for the VOD never mentions the word Deep Strike. You arrive using the VoD which uses the DS rules, but its not DS.

The way I read it is that the VOD cant be used for EI.

**Randall Turner**

Lehnsherr wrote:The way I read it is that the VOD cant be used for EI.

Oh, yeah, totally agree, VoD irrelevant for EI. I was thinking the EI special rule wording overrides (specific overrides general) both the FAQ and the BRB requirement for Deep Strike ability. Basically, *any* cryptek would qualify. Prohibition on cryptek + deathmark DS wouldn't apply.

And then reading the Phased Reinforcement special rule I noticed that there, the wording is virtually *identical* to Eth. Interception - except that it specifies the units in question must, indeed, have the Deep Strike capability.

**MarkCron**

Hmmm. So, if EI is a special rule and because it says Deathmark unit and "using Deep Strike" and not via Deep Strike I may be able to land the D&D combo in the opponents turn via EI.

I think for now I'll just get opponent to agree it is ok to use EI.

**Randall Turner**

Mark, I'm an idiot on these rules, I'm *asking*, not saying. I know how some things work pretty well - not this, here I'm asking for a clarification as much as you. Just my first read-through looking for permission that's (special rule override) looked like the only chance.

But I'm curious - for you this obviously isn't academic. Why? Seriously, running with scissors. You vorpal in after he does, you're there at the beginning of his movement phase, he moves over, shoots and kills you.

What's the point of either Ethereal Interception or Phased Reinforcements, except as very rare novelty type moves? Normal deepstrike would always (?) end better.

**Lordhat**

Randall Turner wrote:

What's the point of either Ethereal Interception or Phased Reinforcements, except as very rare novelty type moves? Normal deepstrike would always (?) end better.

The tactic has serious implications for forcing your opponent to move where you want instead of where he does. Imagine A Space Marine Drop Pod with a tactical squad deep strikes forward towards your lines. You know you can take that squad and the pod, but not if he brings that Land Raider of Terminators up to support it. EI and PR gives you the ablility to immediately present a threat to his lines, forcing him to choose between possibly diverting those terminators to take care of the new threat, or to continue with supporting the Drop pod, leaving your target open to attack. Now imagine doing this 2 or three times, not necessarily targeting the same thing with your squads. The fact that you aren't required to deploy using EI, just makes it another tool in your box, rather than simply being just another restriction on deployment.

PR and EI also gives you the ability to immediately react to all Deepstrike armies (pod marines or Daemons) when you wish (after the last unit of a turn DS's in), helping to negate two disadvantages at once: Not having to rely on unpredictable rolls for your reserves, and your opponent being able to outmaneuver your via DS. Yes, scatter makes this a little unreliable, but smart placement alleviates a lot of the downside.

**Basimpo**

Hm, interesting. Riding on Lordhats coattails, I called an ethereal interception after my opponent succesfully rolled his DSing termies in. Of course, as soon as i told him what i was doing he changed where he was going to DS them at, and instead of putting them in optimum striking range of my soft warriors, he put them (assault termies) behind some dt terrain, in cover (40ish inches away from my closest unit...) and that allowed me to DS my Deathmarks exactly where he intended to, which was in about 15 inches of his HQ termie squad that i just hit with hunters from hyperspace...

**Lordhat**

Basimpo wrote:Hm, interesting. Riding on Lordhats coattails, I called an ethereal interception after my opponent succesfully rolled his DSing termies in. Of course, as soon as i told him what i was doing he changed where he was going to DS them at, and instead of putting them in optimum striking range of my soft warriors, he put them (assault termies) behind some dt terrain, in cover (40ish inches away from my closest unit...) and that allowed me to DS my Deathmarks exactly where he intended to, which was in about 15 inches of his HQ termie squad that i just hit with hunters from hyperspace...

1: you announced it too early as EI is done after the enemy unit arrives from ds (so after scatter and placement, etc), which leads to 2: Your opponent technically cheated by changing his destination.

**MarkCron**

What Lordhat said.

But also, I'm working on an list for the Necrons (which 6th Ed may make more viable) which has maximum impact if I can do it during the opponents movement phase. (see the TrapCron army list in the Army List section).

Appreciate your point - DS does have serious risks anyway - Doing it in the opponent movement phase is riskier.

TrapCons may not be viable even in 6th Ed.....but it doesn't hurt to be prepared!

I think generally when I play I always have throwaway units just to keep the opponent off balance. Being able to drop a D&D combo (and then shoot (please 6th ed)) in their movement phase (I'll even settle for the end of their shooting phase) would be an awesome distraction.

So, the answer to the question -is it academic? overall - Yes. For the TrapCron idea? - no. Just not ready to give up on Deathmarks in TrapCron yet cos I like them.

**Kitzz**

PR and DS:
Any unit with a veil attached to it that IS NOT a deathmark unit has the capability to deepstrike, and is therefore able to use PR while in reserve. Because of the FAQ, deathmark units with attached royal court members, even ones with veils, cannot deep strike and so cannot use PR.

Also, Lordhat is spot-on with his ruling.

The jury is still out on order of operation for mycetic spores and drop pods with cargo, however. They also say that the unit inside deploys immediately, so which rule takes precedence is up for grabs.

**bagtagger**

But if you used the VoD and got a mishap - putting them into reserve then you could use phased reinforcements or etheral interception to bring them back.

**Kitzz**

No, you can only use EI or PR when an opponent's unit arrives.

Unless you're talking about future turns, in which case you are correct (as long as it's not deathmarks).

**Lordhat**

Kitzz wrote:No, you can only use EI or PR when an opponent's unit arrives.

Unless you're talking about future turns, in which case you are correct (as long as it's not deathmarks).

Why not Deathmarks? They have the Deepstrike rule.

**Lehnsherr**

Any unit with a veil attached to it that IS NOT a deathmark unit has the capability to deepstrike, and is therefore able to use PR while in reserve. Because of the FAQ, deathmark units with attached royal court members, even ones with veils, cannot deep strike and so cannot use PR.

I disagree with this.

Zahndrekh's rule

"If Zahndrek is on the battlefield, any number of units in reserve that are able to Deep Strike can choose to enter play in the enemy turn, via Deep Strike, immediately after any enemy unit has arrived from reserve, normally during the enemy''s movement phase."

Notice the capital letters on Deep Strike. Its a direct reference to the special rule Deep Strike as outlined in the BRB.

Deathmarks

"Immediately after an enemy unit arrives from reserve, any Deathmark units in Deep Strike reserve that have not yet entered play can themselves choose to enter play via Deep Strike, usually in the enemy turn."

Again, same argument for Zahndrekh's rule. This is referencing the rule Deep Strike.

Veil of Darkness

"A Cryptek with a veil of darkness can use it in its Movement phase instead of moving normally. The Cryptek and his unit are removed from the tabletop and immediately Deep Strike back onto the battlefield."

No where in this wargear entry is the unit given the Deep Strike rule. They are able to Deep Strike by way of the Veil, but it does not give the unit the Deep Strike rule.

FAQs

Q: Can a unit of Deathmarks with an attached model from a Royal Court Deep Strike? (p90)
A: No. Every model in a unit must have the Deep Strike special rule for it to do so.

Q: Can a veil of darkness be used instead of moving onto the board when a unit arrives from reserve? (p84)
A: Yes.

My argument is as follows. The Veil of Darkness does not confer the Deep Strike rule to the Cryptek or the unit the Cryptek is with. The veil of darkness is a piece of wargear that allows the unit to Deep Strike under specific situations. You may use it in your movement phase, or you may use it to enter play from reserves. Notice the 2nd FAQ never mentions the Deep Strike rule just that the Veil can be used from reserve to Deep Strike your unit.

The first FAQ answers the specific question, but also reiterates the overall point that Deep Strike is not conferred to the unit from a character, nor is it conferred to the character from a unit.

When the time comes to check for either EI or PR, you see if any of your units are able to Deep Strike. You then check units in reserve and see if these units have the Deep Strike rule. The VoDTek NEVER has the Deep Strike rule. He does not fulfil the requirements for either EI or PR. He has a VoD that allows him and his unit to arrive via Deep Strike, but he does not have Deep Strike. Yes, its counter intuitive, but not the first time the rules are counterintuitive.

**Kitzz**

Lensherr, the unit does not need the Deep Strike rule. They need the capability to Deep Strike. Those are two very different things. I never said that the veiltek had Deep Strike. He has the capability to, which is all that PR cares about.

Lordhat, I was referring to the case in which a veiltek or other cryptek is joined to a Deathmark unit. In that case, the unit is explicitly prevented from using Deep Strike.

**Lordhat**

Kitzz wrote: I never said that the veiltek had Deep Strike. He has the capability to, which is all that PR cares about.

The Cryptek doesn't have the ability to DS, unless he takes a Veil of Darkness. The Veil of Darkness only grants the ability to deepstrike in the Necron's own movement phase;This is born out by the FAQ which doesn't allow the Necron player to place the Cryptek into Deepstrike reserve, but DOES allow the use of the VoD to enter the board instead of moving normally. So when Phased Reinforcements triggers, the Cryptek doesn't actually have the ability to deepstrike.

**Randall Turner**

You know, just an observation - I don't use Deep Strike very much, it doesn't fit my army list.

I was sort of under the impression that it was pretty simple. Thanks for dispelling that misconception.

Is anything in this game simple when you take a close look at it?

I'd note that most things with the ability to deep strike only have the ability to do so in their own player turn, Lordhat. Saying that VoD crypteks can't deepstrike in the opponent's player turn because they can't deepstrike in the opponent's player turn is circular logic. Inductive reasoning - assume they can, does a contradiction ensue using the Phased Reinforcement special rule? Not that I can see. Contrariwise, assume they can't - contradiction? Nope.

Undefined circumstance. (what a shock.)

simple. hah.

**Lordhat**

Randall Turner wrote:You know, just an observation - I don't use Deep Strike very much, it doesn't fit my army list.

I was sort of under the impression that it was pretty simple. Thanks for dispelling that misconception.

Is anything in this game simple when you take a close look at it?

I can't tell if you're irked or not, so please don't take this as inflammatory. Often, no things are not simple in 40k when you look at them closely - this is a direct result of GW's style of rules writing. If they put the effort to be clear and concise it would dramatically cut down on these debates. However for GW, the gain is not worth the extra man hours from a financial perspective(although you can see more and more effort being put into this in the last few codices, so maybe that's changing).

I'd note that most things with the ability to deep strike only have the ability to do so in their own player turn, Lordhat. Saying that VoD crypteks can't deepstrike in the opponent's player turn because they can't deepstrike in the opponent's player turn is circular logic. Inductive reasoning - assume they can, does a contradiction ensue using the Phased Reinforcement special rule? Not that I can see. Contrariwise, assume they can't - contradiction? Nope.

Undefined circumstance. (what a shock.)

simple. hah.

This is going to be a lot of semantics, but since the rules are conveyed via written language semantics is key. Normally the ability to deep strike is dependent on a unit having the Deep Strike special rule; a unit with said rule may be placed in reserved and specifically stated to be arriving by Deep Strike. If this is done such units may ONLY arrive by Deep Strike. The same restriction applies to outflank or arriving from reserves normally. Crypteks do not have this rule, and may not be placed in reserves to Deep Strike; they may only arrive from reserves normally. The only way a Cryptek may utilize the Deep Strike rule is via the Veil of Darkness, and only when it may otherwise move normally (which is how a unit moves onto the board from reserves, allowing the VoD to function). A cryptek may not move at all during your opponent's turn regardless of being in reserve or not.

So, my perspective boils down to this: Veilteks are prohibited from using PR not because they can't DS in the opponent's turn, but because they can't move at such time, and therefor cannot utilize the VoD's Deep Strike ability.

Does that make a little more sense?

**Kitzz**

@lordhat:
He does have the ability to deep strike. He is in reserve. That is all that PR requires. Why do you think that he can't?

**Lordhat**

Kitzz wrote:@lordhat:
He does have the ability to deep strike. He is in reserve. That is all that PR requires. Why do you think that he can't?

I stated my reasoning above. I really can't state it any clearer.

**Basimpo**

This way, it makes it seem pointless to have the phased reinforcements ability. It is redundant. How many units, models, vehicles and pieces of terrain in the Necron arsenal is able to deepstrike? Ill give you to the count of ten periods to look..........
5 units.

1 of those doesnt even need it, so, 4 units left. (kinda self mooting, actually)

In my humble opinion, the ability as intended (AAI lol) was to give VoD squads the ability to use phased reinforcements.
Ruleswise, this may not be so, and now that i know this, i wont use it (Never...used it before

)

Wait a second. Just had inspiration. !!!

This right here may be WHY PR is around:
Zandrekh, monoliths (going to say 3 monoliths)
Enemy comes in from reserves. DS the monoliths.
Enemy completes turn.
Teleport units from reserves, with the monoliths portal.
Profit.

Brillant. Going to try this now