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Hi All

Tonight I fought 3000 pts against dark elves with myh vampire counts. During the game I noticed several wrong interpretations of the rules with my opponent, but being anice bloke and friendly club, I did not pursue them. One thing I would like clarification on is the business of overrunning after charging a unit.

My opponent charged into my unit of zombies. Being dark elves, they sliced up the zombies pretty well. After all blows were struck from his side and from my 2 zombies remaining, the usual happened with the 2 valiant zombies just turning into dust through combat resolution. My opponent said that he can overrun his unit but I do not think this is possible. The rules state that combat resolution commences after all blows are struck and the 'close-combat phase' is done.
So my interpretation of this is as follows:
My unit was not wiped out because 2 zombies remained after the dark elf onslaught. Due to the remaining zombies, the combat had to go to combat resolution to see who won. The crumbling of the zombies was a result of the resolution and not the hand-to-hand battle during the close-combat phase, so he should not be able to overrun.

Is this correct?

Cheers
Andy

Pursuits take place after combat resolution so why would he not be able to overrun. Overrun is in the flee and pursuit section of the rule book. The rule even says "by the end of that round of close combat..." Since the end was after the zombies crumbled seems the overrun could then take place.

To me an overrun is instead of a pursuit and pursuit comes after combat resolution. Of course I could be wrong.

No, definately not wrong. The resolution sub-phase is still part of the close combat phase. So if those last few ghouls crumble, an overrun is indeed possible.

And also, you should always discuss rules with your companions/opponents. There is nothing wrong about disagreeing on a rule. He might have just been misinformed about a rule, or maybe you were. It has nothing to do with competitiveness or playing a friendly game. Every game is a chance to learn more about the hobby and you should take advantage of it.

Actually, you were right. the OVERRUN is only allowed when you wipe your opponent out in combat in the first round of combat, you are only allowed to pursue a fleeing enemy. since you didn't run, then he can't pursue. you also can't overrun if the Undead unit crumbles away in the first round of combat since you didn't wipe them out, they crumbled due to combat resolution. at least, this is how I understand the rule.

How you understand the rule is incorrect, as has already been posted.

Well, I don't think so.

PG. 58 "If a unit charges into combat and, by the end of that ROUND OF COMBAT, all it's enemies are wiped out as a result of the combat (rather than the pursuit) the unit can choose to make a pursuit move, even with nobody left alive to pursue."
Also Pg 52 "Once all the models engaged in the round of close combat have fought, this concludes what we call a, 'combat round' or 'round of close combat'"

So, unit of 20 Sword Masters charges a unit of 30 zombies. Sword Masters kill all but three. Now, per pg. 52 quoted above the round of close combat is over. The final two three zombies die, but not as a RESULT OF THE COMBAT, but rather as a result of the combat resolution. this means, by RAW, that no overrun move is allowed.

A unit of 30 Sword Masters is in the SECOND round of combat with a unit of Zombies. They kill all but three, and in then the final three crumble. Since there is no one running, they cannot make a pursuit move.

I believe that you have all misinterpreted the rule.

So you dont think close combat resolution is part of the result of combat?

Yikes.

Reread what you have posted again. Note "combat round" is not hte same thing as "a result of the combat"

You are misreading the very rules you are quoting, and equating two terms that are not only different, but doing so is contradicted in the very rules you quote

nosferatu1001 wrote:So you dont think close combat resolution is part of the result of combat?

Yikes.

Reread what you have posted again. Note "combat round" is not hte same thing as "a result of the combat"

You are misreading the very rules you are quoting, and equating two terms that are not only different, but doing so is contradicted in the very rules you quote

Wow dude, splitting hairs


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Let me break it down for you, The unit must be dead, wiped out, completely destroyed by the end of the COMBAT ROUND/ ROUND OF CLOSE COMBAT/ ROUND OF COMBAT. Since the the Round of combat is OVER after "all models engaged in the combat have fought" and Combat Resolution happens after that, then all models must be dead BEFORE combat resolution in order to overrun. The key phrase on Pg. 58 is not "as a result of combat" but "by the end of that round of combat." Pretty straight forward actually.

No, the operative phrase is "as a result of combat", as that is what decides whether you can overrun or not.

It is very straightforward, but youre missing it.

So, if they are destroyed by Combat RESOLUTION, but AFTER the round of combat? That isn't what the rules say. I would say both clauses must be satisfied for there to be an overrun. There for the unit must be destroyed as a result of the combat, before the end of the combat round (which ends BEFORE combat resolution) for there to be an overrun. They have to be DEAD before the end of the combat round. you can't get around that. By the end of that round of combat, they must be completely wiped out. THAT is what is needed for an overrun.

The combat round ends after it has been resolved. Crumble can allow an overrun.

The deal is that they suffer a wound for every point they lose combat by. This is the same penelty that applies to break tests.


If your position was correct, then you couldn't persue an enemy unit that breaks from combat since that test happens "after the combat round"

But WHIIIIINE!...
Oh wait i'm not in this argument

Grey Templar wrote:The combat round ends after it has been resolved. Crumble can allow an overrun.

The deal is that they suffer a wound for every point they lose combat by. This is the same penelty that applies to break tests.


If your position was correct, then you couldn't persue an enemy unit that breaks from combat since that test happens "after the combat round"

I believe Arion's point of contention is that the bolded does not happen during the "Fight a Round of Close Combat" step (which is step 1 of Close Combat, as per page 46), but rather during the "Calculate Close Combat Result" step (which is step 2 of Close Combat as per the previous). The point of contention is that, at the end of the round of close combat (as per both Summary page 46 and definition on page 52), there are still zombies left. Sure, they're about to crumble but they are, in fact, present at the end of the round of close combat.

Overrun specifically states they must die "by the end of that round of combat' (step 1), not crumble during step 2. Had the unit had enough models to survive the Unstable wounds (since I'm unable to find an actual rule called Crumble anymore), the unit would still be present to take it's break test. Granted, most of the units with Unstable are also Unbreakable and will thus automatically pass the break test, but that is immaterial.

Edited for correct name!

I understand Arions confusion here, its just they're wrong - for the reasons listed.

As a result of combat, the zombies are dead. You get to overrun. As was pointed out - if this is not the case you can never pursue a fleeing enemy. Now, given the rules state you can, that means someone's interpretation of the rules is just plain wrong.

Considering steps 3 and 4 of 'Close Combat' are "Loser takes a break test" and "Flee and pursue", I would posit that your statement purporting "You can never pursue a fleeing enemy" is patently false; those sections go on to describe exactly how one decides if the loser of a combat round flees and then what to do regarding pursuit.

Sigh. that was the point - the net result of deciding you cannot overrun from Unstable is being unable to pursue anyone, ever - whcih we know to be false.

When your argument leads to a known false conclusion, your argument is likely flawed.

I'm still not sure how you get to that conclusion though. You say "against anyone, ever", but this situation only applies to Unstable units, not regular units for whom the regular steps 3 and 4 would apply. This would indeed lead to unstable units never being overrun (unless destroyed before close combat is even done, as per the FAQ), but would have no bearing otherwise.

See Grey Templar above.

Grey Templar wrote:The combat round ends after it has been resolved. Crumble can allow an overrun.
The deal is that they suffer a wound for every point they lose combat by. This is the same penelty that applies to break tests.
If your position was correct, then you couldn't persue an enemy unit that breaks from combat since that test happens "after the combat round"

Grey templar states that the combat round ends after it has been resolved. this is false, as you can read onn page 52, first paragraph: the round of close combat is concluded when blows have been exchanged. In the very next paragraph it says: "now we are going to calculate who's the winner, this we do be determining the combat result of both sides."

so the order is:
-combat round ends,
-combat results are calculated and compared UNLESS one side is allready wiped out (and if so, you can reform/overrun later, [see the paragraph "wipe out!" on page 53])
-if the unstable guy lost, he loses that many wounds
-Further, note that undead units that still live after crumbling now DO take breaktests. several people seem to be under the immpression that the unstable rule replaces breaktests, but this is not the case. the undead rather also are unbreakable, which means they automatically pass breaktests (but they still take them).

there is one additional paragraph on page 58 dealing with overrun, as you all know, which then explains how the overrun actually works.
that paragraph has a very clear and final refference to 'the end of the combat round' being the time to check for overruns.
page 52, again, has a very clear definition of when excactly that is.

So: overrun undead is only possible if you wiped them out before the end of the combat round (so that means 'by means of attacks' or with precombat damage)
To say different is to deliberately ignore the rules mentioned on pages 52 and 58.

Grey Templar wrote:The combat round ends after it has been resolved. Crumble can allow an overrun.

The deal is that they suffer a wound for every point they lose combat by. This is the same penelty that applies to break tests.


If your position was correct, then you couldn't persue an enemy unit that breaks from combat since that test happens "after the combat round"

There are different rules for pursuit after an enemy that is fleeing and over-running a destroyed foe.

Wipeout SPECIFICALLY states that if one side is wiped out, then you do not have to calculate combat resolution as the only side left alive automatically wins.

This clearly means that Wipeout is determined before crumbling. You can only overrun if you cause a wipeout.

I think its fairly obvious what was intended, not allowing an overrun after a crumble finishes off the unit is stupid in my opinion, Im pretty sure that it was intended that you can overrun however you kill your enemy, at the end of the day its the same result, picking out the fact that its worded differently is just a bit over the top surely?

Bobug wrote:I think its fairly obvious what was intended, not allowing an overrun after a crumble finishes off the unit is stupid in my opinion, Im pretty sure that it was intended that you can overrun however you kill your enemy, at the end of the day its the same result, picking out the fact that its worded differently is just a bit over the top surely?

Seems reasonable enough to agree with your gaming-community to play it that way.
It isn't hard to imagine the assaulting unit to surge forward after going through the zombbies like a knife through the butter.
You could also say the assaulting unit managed to get through them, but that it DID take the momentum out of their charge.
I can believe both stories.
It's still worth it, however, to take pause and notice that the book writes B, even when you expect them to intend A.
Maybe that's because they wrote it wrong, maybe it's because the writer didn't see it like you do, maybe I missed something and the rules indeed, actualy say A.
Fact is, book says B, in plain english.

Sorry if that came over to rude; not intended. I still think both options can make very much sense flavourwise, and I think it would be fine whatever you do as long as you agree on beforehand with your friends. In a more tournament-like environment, or any other event where several players from different places meet to play, however, the only thing all parties have in common is the text in the book. you can't expect others to adhere to your houserules, obviously., so you should give the verdict of the rules in this matter some credit as well.

Bobug wrote:I think its fairly obvious what was intended, not allowing an overrun after a crumble finishes off the unit is stupid in my opinion, Im pretty sure that it was intended that you can overrun however you kill your enemy, at the end of the day its the same result, picking out the fact that its worded differently is just a bit over the top surely?

I certainly agree about what we all *think* they intended, but GW has clearly changed their mind in what the original author intended vs what the FAQ writer decides. See the Ogre Kingdom FAQ regarding butchers and magic armor as an example.

There is certainly value in clarifying what the rules actually say. You are not bound by any rule in the book in your local community, even the silliest ones.

Except there was no grey area in the Ogre book. It was a complete and utter blunder.

This situation is much more different and has lots of wiggle room.

Grey Templar wrote:Except there was no grey area in the Ogre book. It was a complete and utter blunder.

This situation is much more different and has lots of wiggle room.

did you read the "author's note". Basically the author had not intended for Butcher's to wear armor. However, by the wording in the book, they can.

Now, GW can make ERRATA to their books, to fix this, but instead decided to allow it (likely because they want to sell more ogre models).

There is no way to predict what they will do, was my point.

Yeah, i read Jervis's whine note. He can stuff it where the sun don't shine

So.. just didn't get my point or didn't want to get my point?

Grey Templar wrote:Yeah, i read Jervis's whine note. He can stuff it where the sun don't shine

Ninja'd.
BTW i don't play ogres (my most regular opponent does) so all ya whiners can stuff it too.

Grey Templar wrote:Except there was no grey area in the Ogre book. It was a complete and utter blunder.

This situation is much more different and has lots of wiggle room.

Yes this situation is different.
No, there is no wiggle room.
You can agree with your friend to edit this rule as a house rule, just like you can agree to skip rolling to hit in close combat.
But the rules published in WHF 8th do state you do not overun due to crumble-casualties, and do state you've to roll to hit.

The whole ogre thing was pretty weird though; yes/no/maybe answers in a faq are a bit pointless.