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Me and my friend are having a debate that we need settled! We are at a disagreement about how exactly the Space Marine's regard the Emperor. He says that they regard him as a wise and powerful man but he is still just a man. I was under the impression that they regard him as a deity, a God-Emperor, and that is the fundamental difference between regular and Chaos space marines (as Chaos space marines chose to worship other gods and were deemed heretics).

So which is it dakka! Man or God-Emperor?

Thanks in advance!

For some, Man, for others, God.

For Space Wolves, he's Leman's Drinking Buddy. Which is awesome.

They may call him a Man, but the way they treat him differs little from how the Ecclesiarchy does, except in terminology and specific ritual details. They pray to him, seek his blessings, think he is immortal and watches over them from a spiritual realm, and think they will join him in the afterlife.

The terminology differences may mean a great deal to them and to the Ecclesiarchy, but that just emulates so many religions in the real world, where hair-splitting has led to schisms and wars.

White scars regard him as a powerful man, one that wil fulfill the primarchs dream of uniting all humanity.
Some see as a god, like the templars.
Others see him as fake(AKA CSM)

Space Jesus.

The Space Marines hold true to the Emperor's original vision. They understand that the Emperor was just a man. An extremely powerful psyker and warrior, but also just a man. Especially given the newer versions of the fluff. When the Space Marines invoke the Emperor, it's not as a god, but more as a psychological thing. Their "faith" in the Emperor is more of an understanding that he's part of what holds Chaos at bay and maintains the Astronomicon, rather than an expectation of divine intervention or tangible protection. You have to remember, the Space Marines are the only ones who have remained true to the Emperor's vision. Which is why they often seem to have a different agenda than the other Imperium agencies, especially the Ecclesiarchy.

But, then again, like my sig says, it's part of my huge problem with the current Sisters of Battle fluff. We know for a fact that the Emperor isn't a god, and never wanted to be a god. The Ecclesiarchy is a thoroughly corrupt institution that exploits the name and legacy of the Emperor in order to control the masses. The Sisters of Battle may be "innocent" in the sense that they're just to naive and foolish to see the truth about their masters, but no matter how hard they believe in the Emperor as a god doesn't change the fact that he isn't one.

A few Chapters see and worship the Emperor as a god, but most don't. Rather, He's seen as the perfect example of what every Human being should aspire to be. A man like no other, with god-like psychic might, the wisdom and intellect of ages, but still a man for all that. This has led to clashes between the Ecclesiarchy and the Astartes, especially since the latter are His descendants.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:
But, then again, like my sig says, it's part of my huge problem with the current Sisters of Battle fluff. We know for a fact that the Emperor isn't a god, and never wanted to be a god. The Ecclesiarchy is a thoroughly corrupt institution that exploits the name and legacy of the Emperor in order to control the masses. The Sisters of Battle may be "innocent" in the sense that they're just to naive and foolish to see the truth about their masters, but no matter how hard they believe in the Emperor as a god doesn't change the fact that he isn't one.

While I agree with this, the Emperor never made any effort to stop the rise of the Ecclesiarchy, which He could have easily done through the Ordo Malleus' Inner Circle, since it became a necessity after the events of the Horus Heresy and the collapse of the Imperial Truth. The Imperial Truth died with the disbandment of the Remembrancers and the Iterators, as well as the establishment of the Inquisition. With the Imperial Truth gone, the only other thing that could have filled the vacuum without the Ecclesiarchy is Chaos. Basically, the Emperor chose a lesser evil to preserve the Imperium; but although the Imperium has changed so utterly, the dream that drives it still lives through the Space Marines. The Space Marines may be bound to serve and protect the Imperium, and so cannot themselves rule it or change it, but their own independence ensures that the Emperor's dream continues to live, and while it lives, perhaps someday can be reborn anew.

mazik765 wrote:Me and my friend are having a debate that we need settled! We are at a disagreement about how exactly the Space Marine's regard the Emperor. He says that they regard him as a wise and powerful man but he is still just a man. I was under the impression that they regard him as a deity, a God-Emperor, and that is the fundamental difference between regular and Chaos space marines (as Chaos space marines chose to worship other gods and were deemed heretics).

So which is it dakka! Man or God-Emperor?

Thanks in advance!

The fundemental difference between SM and CSM is that one fights for the Emperor and the other doesn't. During the Great Crusade the Emperor actively tried to stop all worship, including those that started worshipping him. The widespread belief of the Emperor's devinity occured well after he was enthroned.

Due to this most first founding and second founding chapters still maintain the belief that the Emperor was their grandfather (after their primarch father) and was the pinnicle of humanity. Some later founding chapters do however believe he is a god.


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Iracundus wrote:They may call him a Man, but the way they treat him differs little from how the Ecclesiarchy does, except in terminology and specific ritual details. They pray to him, seek his blessings, think he is immortal and watches over them from a spiritual realm, and think they will join him in the afterlife.

The terminology differences may mean a great deal to them and to the Ecclesiarchy, but that just emulates so many religions in the real world, where hair-splitting has led to schisms and wars.

If this occured in the real world then yes he would be classed as a god, but from the internal working universe of 40k it doesn't. Seeing as the soul/warp and warp powers are all proven facts, also to all extents a being that has lived/unlived for well over 10000 years can be assumed to be immortal without being classed as a god.

hotsauceman1 wrote:White scars regard him as a powerful man, one that wil fulfill the primarchs dream of uniting all humanity.
Some see as a god, like the templars.
Others see him as fake(AKA CSM)

The underlined isn't true...

The "God" Emperor is the view of the ecclesiarchy.
The "Omnissiah" Emperor is the view of the mechanicum.
Anyone not sharing one of the two views above isn't wrong, just got a different image of the Emperor.
The Astartes are based on the Legiones Astartes, those who have fought alongside the Emperor in his "mobile" state. This preserves a view of him as the being he was known back in those days and his teachings. Sure there isn't much left of the "imperial truth" in M40...
The templars ( assuming its the black ones ) are descendants of the Imperial Fist Space Marine Legion. A Legion that had the honor to be really close to him and thus even 10 millenia may not alter the image of him that much. Their theme as eternal crusaders based upon thé great crusade, which sometimes misleads a few to confuse the style ( ie rather knightly designs and markings close to the medieval age )
with the beliefs of the Templars, who are not referring to him as a "God".

Refer to lectitio divinitus. :p

Brother Thomas wrote:Refer to lectitio divinitus. :p

Which:
A. The other legions did not follow
B. Logar was punished for the creation of cathedrals to the Emperor of worlds he conquered

It is of little use bringing up an example of a book written by a chaos primarch who was punished by the Emperor for calling him a god in a discussion about what loyalist chapters believe.

The Chapter cults still hold their primarch as high as the emperor.
He is basically the overall creator of them so they hold him like a king. Not a god. For the Emperor is more like. "IN Memory of our king!

Iracundus wrote:They may call him a Man, but the way they treat him differs little from how the Ecclesiarchy does, except in terminology and specific ritual details. They pray to him, seek his blessings, think he is immortal and watches over them from a spiritual realm, and think they will join him in the afterlife.

The terminology differences may mean a great deal to them and to the Ecclesiarchy, but that just emulates so many religions in the real world, where hair-splitting has led to schisms and wars.

Although not quite a Consensus viewpoint (Consensus? in WH40K? ), Iracundus' statement is probably the best characterization of how things currently stand in the Fluff and Fiction.

I forgot where , but one of DakkaDakka's "sister forums' - like Warseer, etc. there was a thread that outlined the number of times the Space Marines in fiction and under different authors tended toward something akin to the state of worship vis-a-vis the Emperor.

I tend to chalk this up to 2 trends:

1.) WH40K - originally a ramshackle collection of 80s/early 90s pop culture trends was..decidedly less serious than it is today. It was more "Grimdark-Wacky" IMHO than the brooding tension that writers like Mcneill and Abnett helped engineer.

In this drive toward making the setting more serious, a lot of the earlier ironic/sarcastic points were either jettisoned or reinterpreted.


2.) The Centrality of the Emperor

Originally it seems that the Emperor was essentially an Unofficial Export from the Dune series. A background element that needed no further elaboration.

Looking at how things stand now - that's changed quite a bit no? Especially when GW started releasing the Horus Heresy boardgame and BL started spitting out the novels.

Now the Emperor is front and center - now there's a need to elaborate on him and his relationship to the Imperium.

But never too much. Too much elaboration = Mystery Killer = Loss of Interest/Lack of Flexibility for GW.