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Hey guys so I assume Manticores are best kept hiding away out of LOS of the enemy, and with such a small profile to be seen would camo netting be worth it (its a lot of points, but its a 3+ save to stop frustrating shaken results from making you miss a turn). Is there more to them?

Less to them, actually. Camo nets are expensive, so unless you absolutely have no better place to put the points (as in, on some weapons upgrades, perhaps), only then is it worth it to bother.

Park (out of LOS if possible), point, shoot, repeat. Doesn't require a whole lot of thought.

Too easy, cheers

There aren't any real upgrades worth taking for the Manticore. Plop it down and pray something doesn't kill all its Rockets in one shot...

Tactics - boom. Upgrades - none.

Welcome to the guard

Joey wrote:Tactics - boom. Upgrades - none.

Welcome to the guard

Win...

As said before, don't bother with upgrades. It usually isn't worth the cost.

I've been playing guard for a bit, just never trialled arty units, should be fun

KplKeegan wrote:There aren't any real upgrades worth taking for the Manticore. Plop it down and pray something doesn't kill all its Rockets in one shot...

Any other artillery vehicle loses its main cannon in one weapon destroyed result as well. The Manticore costs the most and stands to lose a bit more, but I consider this an even trade considering the others are open topped and will be wrecked on a 4+, 3+ in a squadron.

Joey wrote:Tactics - boom. Upgrades - none.

Welcome to the guard

Tactics - Load the scatter die to hit.

motyak wrote:I've been playing guard for a bit, just never trialled arty units, should be fun

They all come on a Chimera platform, if you're playing with reasonable people perhaps try proxying them all if you can spare a Chimichanga or two.

Sleepysloth wrote:

KplKeegan wrote:There aren't any real upgrades worth taking for the Manticore. Plop it down and pray something doesn't kill all its Rockets in one shot...

Any other artillery vehicle loses its main cannon in one weapon destroyed result as well. The Manticore costs the most and stands to lose a bit more, but I consider this an even trade considering the others are open topped and will be wrecked on a 4+, 3+ in a squadron.

But they don't cost 160 Points. The real Artillery can be squadroned and is more practical, but to each his own, I wouldn't field a Manticore at gunpoint.

KplKeegan wrote:But they don't cost 160 Points.

But they give you D3 S10 ordnance. You can easily see why this is worth a 33% price jump over the basilisk.

When I play I always assume I'll only get one blast. It's an added bonus if I get 2 or 3. Guess I'm just a pessimist.

Multiple blasts are neat, but imprecise. I tend to get either 1 blast or 2 blasts, with one landing where I really don't need it. Either I'm just un/lucky, or Basilisks are better. Lotta math hammer will disagree with me, but there's something great about em.

Ailaros wrote:

KplKeegan wrote:But they don't cost 160 Points.

But they give you D3 S10 ordnance. You can easily see why this is worth a 33% price jump over the basilisk.

Well since the Basilisk needs an enclosed crew compartment it's only actually a 10 points difference. For which you get D3 S10 plates over 1 S9.

And wouldn't it be easier to hide the manticore? the basilisk has the gunshield and what not which can be seen, but the manticore can take a lower profile...

Joey wrote:Well since the Basilisk needs an enclosed crew compartment it's only actually a 10 points difference. For which you get D3 S10 plates over 1 S9.

Oh, right, I'd forgotten about that.

The basilisk is still useful what with being cheaper (if more flimsy without ECC), and it still is Ap3, and squaddable for big battles, but the manticore is certainly sassy when points allow.

Joey wrote:

Ailaros wrote:

KplKeegan wrote:But they don't cost 160 Points.

But they give you D3 S10 ordnance. You can easily see why this is worth a 33% price jump over the basilisk.

Well since the Basilisk needs an enclosed crew compartment it's only actually a 10 points difference. For which you get D3 S10 plates over 1 S9.

Basilisk with enclosed crew compartment is 140 points; which makes it a 20 point difference. Besides, its another of the options not generally taken, as referenced in the other thread. If you feel the need to compare point for point it should be the full 35.

So, which to choose? The answer is: it depends. Personally, I prefer the basilisk. Its (three and a half melta guns) cheaper, and it gives the lists I tend to play some much needed high strength ap3. Still, if your artillery's job is to lay down a bunch of str10 ordnance without regard for the ap4, it may be the better choice. It is heavy support after all, so the answer is related to your choices in other slots.

Basically, the basilisk is a marine killer - particularly long fangs or the like who like to hide out of range of your normal guns and behind say, a wall, to annoy your russes.

The manticore, on the other hand, is a horde killer and a tank killer, but a bad marine killer.

That would be my decision process for deciding which to pick - what aspect do I lack most in my army.

For example, I've been taking a basilisk as my 3rd heavy support (in addition to a russ and a manticore) recently because I've found that when it comes to marines my army had a great deal of trouble reaching out and hurting things on an objective in capture and control. - It was just the russ, and occasionally marbo that was relatively reliable. - Chimeras would never get through the other army to the board edge quickly enough, and my valkyries tend to catch terminal cases of hill disease.

To be fair, the basilisk isn't a BAD tank killer. S9 ordnance often sitting side armor is pretty punchy. Not as punchy, of course, and it's mostly this that's what the extra points are for. Seems that the difference between Ap3 marine killer and multi-pie horde killer seem about the same for their points.

I just posted up a list I'm thinking of for using my manticores, its based off my normal lists so I can't add in chimeras and what not (since I don't have them)

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/449904.page#4285729

Any help welcome

If the Vendettas are outflanking, it's unlikely your Manticores will get to shoot more than once. Two AV12s on the field? Yeah say goodbye to them.
If the Vendettas are starting on the field, they have troops in them so will be blown to smithereens, then the Manticores.
In my opinion any guard vehicle that's not a Russ or a Sentinal is of limitted effectiveness outside of vehicle spam.

No point in upgrades. IG believes in strength in numbers. Upgrades are a way to ineffectively fix an inherent weakness. The correct solution is numbers, because they give volume of fire and multiple threats.

It may be different in your meta, but DE is a relatively common sight for me. Lance weapons make AV12 just as good as AV14. So, the real solution is to have artillery that can fire indirect. The manticore can do this, so take advantage of it. if the map is properly constructed, there should be at least one spot on your side that provides no LOS for the enemy. Park the artillery there.

Regarding basilisks killing MEQ, I would not count on it. Marine players are keenly aware of any AP3 on the board. All it takes is grabbing some cover. Devastator types by their nature will start the game parked in something like that. So, AP3 is largely irrelevant unless against very specific armies in specific situations. To make it more relevant, it has to be coupled with ignore cover, and that is why I love the colossi.

That being said, the basilisk is a gorgeous model, and that is why I have 3, but I always proxy them for other pieces when I play IG, chiefly colossi or medusas.

Necrontyr40k wrote:No point in upgrades. IG believes in strength in numbers. Upgrades are a way to ineffectively fix an inherent weakness.

Actually, weapon upgrades are the most efficient way of increasing killing power, mostly because you don't have to pay for an additional carrier.

The only real problem here with the manticore is that the upgrades themselves cause conflicts with the particularities of this vehicle, which is why they're scarcely ever taken. Why take a stubber for a weapon that's best against tanks? Why take a HK missile for a weapon that's going to be spending a lot of time out of LOS?

I like to give him a hull heavy flamer. No points cost, heavy bolter is useless as long as the Missiles are online and if something gets close sometimes it is better to flame instead of a missile or when weapon is destroyed our out of ammo tank shock and flame is also a better option mostly than a single heavy bolter. (There are better weapons for that thing on each chimera...)

Tactics?

If you dont have first turn and fear for it (no proper LOS Blocker to hide behind) reserve, come in and boom
If you have first turn: Boom.

It is in general more reliable to shoot with LOS so make sure not too much of the opposing force can see you. And you are able to move if you fire directly. This is also useful. You want that thing to fire 4x.

You can move and fire directly? I thought that ordnance barrage was move or fire

You can fire it as ordinance while moving off you have line if sight. No firing without line of sight if you moved.

Right, it's always ordnance, but the barrage is optional.

Ailaros wrote:

Necrontyr40k wrote:No point in upgrades. IG believes in strength in numbers. Upgrades are a way to ineffectively fix an inherent weakness.

Actually, weapon upgrades are the most efficient way of increasing killing power, mostly because you don't have to pay for an additional carrier.

Most IG vehicles come with good standard loadout already. Giving them extra/other weapons generally racks up the points cost without adequate increase in actual value. The only counterexample I can think of is sentinels and even there it is arguable depending on application. On the other hand, more hulls means more firepower required to cause the same percentile damage, as well as more main guns firing back.

more hulls does mean more durability, certainly, but it's still not more efficient over all.

Two sentinels with missile launchers costs 90 points. A single sentinel with a missile launcher and a hunter killer costs 65 points for the same amount of damage the first turn they shoot. Given that they're not going to survive much longer than a turn or two, you get basically the same amount of firepower, while the 2x sentinels come at a 50% price hike. Even if the sentinels still survive for two turns, it's still 3 shots for 65 points against 4 shots for 90 points, which is still in the upgraded sentinel's favor.

You can also think about it as insurance. A manticore is already a good horde killer, but once its missile rack gets knocked off, what's it doing? If it has a stubber and a hull heavy flamer, it's still a somewhat decent horde killer, and that's for only 10 points more on something that already costs 165, so the upgrade:carrier cost isn't that bad.

Plus, the alternatives do have a bearing on this. For the price of the plasma sponsons on a pair of executioners, you're 2/3ds of the way to another basilisk, or can slip in marbo or something. For the price of three heavy stubbers on some vehicles, what else are you doing with those points? On a similar note, 6 heavy stubbers are certainly going to do more damage than a platoon infantry squad with a heavy bolter.

Yes, more bodies (or hulls) are generally better when you can include them, especially compared to non-weapon upgrades. If you have weapon upgrades that you actually have a specific use for, sometimes the better killing power is worth it over the relative loss in durability.