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I think that the imperial guard should be able to fire in to a friendly squad thats in close quarter combat with the enemy. it seems like something the IG would do, or at least do if a commissar in the unit. Mabye it could be an order; call it "For the good of the Imperium." or "Final protective fire." where you nominate your locked unit and the squad you want to shoot it and then roll again for each hit and on a 4+ you hit the enemy else you hit your troops and the hits are resolved accordingly.

Morgbot wrote:I think that the imperial guard should be able to fire in to a friendly squad thats in close quarter combat with the enemy. it seems like something the IG would do, or at least do if a commissar in the unit. Mabye it could be an order; call it "For the good of the Imperium." or "Final protective fire." where you nominate your locked unit and the squad you want to shoot it and then roll again for each hit and on a 4+ you hit the enemy else you hit your troops and the hits are resolved accordingly.

Actually sounds like a good order, but I suggest some sort of negative impact, and also some limitations.

My suggestions are

It hits the enemy as normal, but any misses hit friendly models for simplicity sake. So an infantry squad hits enemies on a 4+ its own guys on anything lower.
Only CCS and Commander Chenkov can issue the order. Honestly I would say Chenkov only, but whatev.
The unit takes a -1 leadership hit for the rest of the game that doesn't stack with itself. So if you order the same unit to do it twice they still only have a -1 modifier.

I'd say roll for hits and wounds as normal... any that do not wound the intended target are rolled against allies.

May not shoot into the unit in cc if there is a commissar, or any other HQ unit present (ie, if Creed is locked in combat, you cant help him out)

Perhaps the order is given with a -2 modifier on the turn and no further orders may be given that turn (so, if creed issues this with his first order than any pcs units may not issue any orders, and he may not issue any more that turn) this seems a better penalty than a permanent modifier. I'd still go with chenkov or company command only as well.

Don't/Didn't Skaven have a simliar rule in Fantasy? Something along the lines of 1-3 hits your own troops, 4-6 hits the enemy.

This comes up once every month, and every time it gets shot down for a multitude of reasons.

The first being for balance issues. Being in CC is how dedicated assault units survive the game, and taking that away from them is poor balance.

The second is from a fluff standpoint, most armies in the game would have a similar justification. Orkz wouldn't care, or even enjoy it, as would Dark Eldar; Chaos are, well, chaotic and would do it too; Tyranids also don't care one way or another; Necrons would do it if the odds were calculated to make it worthwhile. Really, only Tau, Eldar and maybe some Marines would have issues with it. This also ties into the balancing reason, as then everyone (or nearly everyone) would have to have a similar rule which would greatly imbalance the game.

The third is just trying to sort out an appropriate method to resolve it while attempting to be balanced. Some rules are too complex, others are overly simple and fail to truly achieve the desired result. This also ties back to balance, as a 50% chance favours armies with an already poor or average BS.

So, in short, the answer is no. Its not good for the game, its not fluffy, and it forgets that 40k is an abstraction. Not everything has to be 'logical', for if it was, every single weapon would be able to shoot across the board.

And the Skaven were only able to fire into a unit in combat with their slave unit. And the Skaven are an underhanded backstabbing army, even compared to other evil armies they are despicable. And shooting doesn't seem to be as important in Fantasy.

Savageconvoy wrote:And the Skaven were only able to fire into a unit in combat with their slave unit. And the Skaven are an underhanded backstabbing army, even compared to other evil armies they are despicable. And shooting doesn't seem to be as important in Fantasy.

It isn't as much...
Slaves are also dirt cheap and there are a couple of other rules showing how no one cares they exist...

Maybe make it so you can only do it with Conscripts?

You suffer a -1 to your BS as you shoot and if you miss, you hit your own Guys.

Bloodhorror wrote:Maybe make it so you can only do it with Conscripts?

You suffer a -1 to your BS as you shoot and if you miss, you hit your own Guys.

I'd also have a rule saying that for every conscript lost from friendly fire they take a -1 Ld hit until they get out of their current combat.

Every Conscript???

So if you lose 8, its a -8??

I say 25% casualty checks as per, except if you fail it, the Enemy unit should there be any left hit automaticcaly at Intiative 10

Bloodhorror wrote:Every Conscript???

So if you lose 8, its a -8??

I say 25% casualty checks as per, except if you fail it, the Enemy unit should there be any left hit automaticcaly at Intiative 10

I dunno...
It's pretty damn demoralising when your own side starts shooting into you as you try and fight the horrors of the universe with a lasrifle and little training...
How about -2Ld on any casualty checks they make?

-2ld would work!


Conscripts:

F*ck those guys!: Any "Freindly" unit may attempt to fire into a combat involving an enemy unit and a Conscript Squad. To do this the firing unit suffers a -1 on their to hit roll, with any Misses hitting the Conscripts. After resolving Wounds and the Such like, should the Conscript squad need to take any Casualty Checks, they do so at a -2 LD Check.




Should we perhaps talk about if there attacking a MC?

If there's an MC they don't suffer the -1 to hit...

The only situation I could see it be reasonable and balanced is conscripts firing into a squad in close combat, to show their panic and lack of discipline. Maybe give conscripts 'rage' and if an enemy unit is locked in clombat within range, the conscripts have to take a Ld test and failing that, they attempt to fire on the enemy squad; with every miss hitting a friendly unit. So then its more of a downside, and harder to exploit against the opponent, because again, if guardsmen can fire at their own men, whats stopping orks, necrons, and demons?!

As I said earlier with the Skaven there really wasn't much in the way of shooting attacks. Making it so a group of conscripts can bog down terminators while guard pour melta and plasma into them is a bit of a balance issue.
And with Skaven it was each HIT being split with 4+ to the enemy and 3- to the slaves. With guard vets you're looking at 66% of the shots landing on the enemy. It's being based off the shots and not the hits. Even with the Skavens limited number of shots and average BS they split it more evenly.
I've always thought the idea of firing into a squad in cc was explained away with good enough logic. The chaos and confusion of the battle makes targets too hard to keep a bead on. Much better to focus on the other tank with legs wielding chainsaw fists ready to knuckle-f**k your face off.

I really think this is a mechanic that just doesn't add up.

And why would you view conscripts as worthless. In most armies those guys could well be your own son. Are you going to open up into a unit that has your own son or other family into it all willy nilly. Not bloody likely. Sure In the fluff it happens but its still against the rules normally. You want to blow your own guys up play Apocalypse and take the trick doctrine thing that lets you call in bombs on every squad with a vox caster.


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Now getting to give up shooting to open up on then after they win and kill all your dudes might be a good concept. that way if the fighting doesn't end this assault phase you will have wasted a turn of shooting.

We house-ruled that you can shoot into close combat due to the overwhelming popularity with the idea. We made it pretty harsh though, so each side receives half the Hits, while single shot weapons roll to Hit and then roll to see which side is hit. Both factions get a cover save, and if the units in close combat ever separate due to morale checks, etc., the allied unit tests on what we call a Treachery Reaction table. Essentially if a unit fails its morale check (with modifiers due to casualties) it can turn on its allies!

It's all a bit much but it satisfies those who really want to do it without benefiting them too much. Personally, I've always found better things to shoot at, but on occasion it's useful.

I am not a huge fan of this idea, but if you were going to do it, I would do something like this:

You shoot, hit, and roll to wound like normal. But your opponent may choose to either take their armor/invul save as normal OR take a 3+ cover save and each successful cover save is transferred to a wound on your unit in close combat.

So if you shoot and I make the successful cover save you must allocate them as wounds on your unit.

Should be another Death Korps special rule.

Hell, some Korpsmen will volunteer to melee to hold the line while the rest shoot at them and the enemy.

Theres something like this in LOTR for the evil forces. I would recommend that the squad has to have at least a platoon commander as normal guard might not want to shoot his best mate in the back of his head

Blacksail has good reasons why this shouldn't exist. It used to be legal, but the game just became too simple. You actually used to be able to leave combat, then leave the enemy sitting there in the open. Of course the unit that left probably died doing so.

Tyranids would shoot their own hormagaunts with barbed stranglers because it was easier for them to wound. It was horrid.

Even if you allow it, IG are not special, every army should have the choice. It should be a basic rule thing.

The best rules I've ever seen for shooting in hand to hand come from Armies of Arcana. You are not trying to hit your own troops, so you have a slightly better chance of hitting the enemy. What you do is fire as normal against the enemy unit (I would say ignore models in the combat for determining cover). Whatever missed you then roll to hit against your own side. This way you mostly hit the enemy, but still took alot of hits yourself.

Either 25% morale as normal, or casualties count toward combat result.

You might even be able to go so far as to say you need a LD test to endanger your allies like that.

I would say that only CC or Chenkov can order units with Commisars or their own unit to fire on locked units.

Also the firing unit would have to take a LD test to shoot.

I'm not sure how to carry out the actual shooting part best. It would probably have to be tested, but it definitely needs to be risky.

Either shoot at BS 2 and for any misses roll to see if they hit your guys. 4+ hits friendly troops.

Or you shoot normally and enemy can take a 3+ cover save, succesfull saves hit friendly troops.

It doesn't matter which way proves best, either method for shooting should include the following:

For every friendly troop shot the unit being shot at suffers -1 LD. At the end, the unit in combat takes morale check with their modified LD, if they fail it counts as losing the combat and fall back (they can be sweeping advanced). If the enemy was killed, the unit takes the morale check with their modified LD and starts to retreat if they fail .

You cannot shoot at friendly troops containing special characters, HQs or PCs, or commisars.

Savageconvoy wrote:And the Skaven were only able to fire into a unit in combat with their slave unit. And the Skaven are an underhanded backstabbing army, even compared to other evil armies they are despicable. And shooting doesn't seem to be as important in Fantasy.

We did used to be able to fire into anything-even stormvermin with a screaming bell and grey seer in but then the new book came out.

amanita wrote: We made it pretty harsh though, so each side receives half the Hits, while single shot weapons roll to Hit and then roll to see which side is hit.

What about when it's just one model vs mutliple others? Mephiston causing trouble springs to mind. Blood Angels shooting into that scrum manage to hit him 50% of the time?

White Ninja wrote:And why would you view conscripts as worthless. In most armies those guys could well be your own son. Are you going to open up into a unit that has your own son or other family into it all willy nilly. Not bloody likely. Sure In the fluff it happens but its still against the rules normally. You want to blow your own guys up play Apocalypse and take the trick doctrine thing that lets you call in bombs on every squad with a vox caster.


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Now getting to give up shooting to open up on then after they win and kill all your dudes might be a good concept. that way if the fighting doesn't end this assault phase you will have wasted a turn of shooting.

This is the Imperial Guard, where you have people like Chenkov who execute millions of their own men so they can build a fething damn because they ran out of rocks. You have some generals who care for their men, and you have some who see them to be as expendable, if not more so; as their lasgun packs.

Perhaps you could only do this if you have Chenkov in your army? It'd seem like something he'd do, and of course get another medal pinned to his chest for his brave and heroic command decisions.