In Retrospect... Was Hiroshima a good idea?

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**Andrew1975**

davethepak wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Ketara wrote:It was unnecessary. The Japanese no longer possessed any way of striking back against the Americans. Does that make it immoral? That's something you have to decide for yourself.

As far as I know, the A-bomb was painless, instantaneous death from the sky.

No. It was painless if it landed on your head. The resulting burns and radiation sickness from those caught on the edge of the blast, or in slightly covered locations were horrific. Seriously. Go and read some accounts of the resulting symptoms. This was only excaberated by the levelling of 2/3's of Japans housing by incendiaries, and lack of supplies. People died in extreme pain writhing in their own excrement as a result of those bombs.

'Politest form of death', it was not.

That preposterous. The Japanese could have surrendered at any time. Further, and here's the fun part, the Japanese could have thought about it before the whole invading China/ Malaysia/Vietnam/Thailand/Cambodia/Laos/Burma/Phillipines/Solomons/attacking the US thing and its millions of dead.

I lost one grandfather to the Japanese. Odds are I would have lost more relatives if Operation Olympic had to be carried out. Estimates on Japanese civilian casualties alone were in the 1MM + range. It ended the war and those people survived.

It was not necessary, not at all. Look it up. It wont be easy to find, but its history (history channel did a special on Truman recently, about him rebuffing the earlier japanese surrender terms).

Actually, very few know this (they won't teach this in high school history, you get it in college if you are lucky) the japanese were ALREADY ready to surrender.
They had started surrender talks months before. Japan was already interested in surrendering, they were just bickering over terms. In fact, all along they NEVER intended or planned on attacking the US mainland....it was just a resource grab, they planned on capturing a lot of natural resources, gaining an advantage, then suing for peace, and trying to keep some of the stuff they had captured. Once the military industrial complex (and their ability to import critically needed fuel) was wiped out, they realized they were done, but were trying to negotiate to keep some resources. US leaders wanted an unconditional surrender and to humiliate the Japanese (no its not pretty, but its history - look it up).

We destroyed about 67 Japanese cities, over 500,000 japanese citizens and leaving millions homeless...the only thing special about hiroshima and nagasaki was they only took a single plane each.

It was not done to "save lives" for an invasion, that is a convenient myth. Remember, history curriculums are dictated by politicians.....you don't find out the good stuff until college...and only then if you are lucky.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_bombing_during_World_War_II#United_States_strategic_bombing_of_Japan

Those months of quibbling ended pretty quickly once the bomb was dropped! Negotiating a surrender and surrendering are very different things. Look how long peace talks lasted during the Korean war and how many people died during them.

That Japan would have surrendered if they got to dictate the terms is not a secret. Japan was never a threat to occupy or attack mainland USA. You say this as if you are breaking news. Japan did not deserve to save face by dictating the terms of their surrender, they needed to be humbled and humiliated!

**davethepak**

Emperors Faithful wrote:
davethepak wrote:They had started surrender talks months before. Japan was already interested in surrendering, they were just bickering over terms. In fact, all along they NEVER intended or planned on attacking the US mainland....it was just a resource grab, they planned on capturing a lot of natural resources, gaining an advantage, then suing for peace, and trying to keep some of the stuff they had captured.

Aside from lunatics, I've never heard it suggested that Japan ever intended to assault the US mainland at all. Even Australia, assuming that the war in the Phillipines and PNG went perfectly, was never seriously given consideration for invasion. Japan simply didn't have the resources to stretch themselves that far, and they never fooled themselves into thinking that they did.

Correct.

But there was a LOT of fear mongering in the day and bad actions taken as a result (like oh, say japanese internment camps....) but THAT is another topic.

**Andrew1975**

But there was a LOT of fear mongering in the day and bad actions taken as a result (like oh, say japanese internment camps....) but THAT is another topic.

Not saying it was right, but they were treated better than the Japanese treated foreign aliens/outsiders during the war.

Japan was treated the way it was because they were merciless to all enemies. When you give no quarter, you should not expect it in return. In even those terms the Japanese got off light.

**Emperors Faithful**

Andrew1975 wrote:Those months of quibbling ended pretty quickly once the bomb was dropped! Negotiating a surrender and surrendering are very different things. Look how long peace talks lasted during the Korean war and how many people died during them.

So, what? You're saying we should Nuke Korea?

That Japan would have surrendered if they got to dictate the terms is not a secret. Japan was never a threat to occupy or attack mainland USA. You say this as if you are breaking news. Japan did not deserve to save face by dictating the terms of their surrender, they needed to be humbled and humiliated!

Nice. I'm getting a total, like, humanitarian vibe off you, man.

**dogma**

Andrew1975 wrote:Japan did not deserve to save face by dictating the terms of their surrender, they needed to be humbled and humiliated!

Why? So big, masculine, American men could feel all big and strong?

**Andrew1975**

Emperors Faithful wrote:
Andrew1975 wrote:Those months of quibbling ended pretty quickly once the bomb was dropped! Negotiating a surrender and surrendering are very different things. Look how long peace talks lasted during the Korean war and how many people died during them.

So, what? You're saying we should Nuke Korea?

Yeah, that's what I'm saying! Really? So how long was the US supposed to wait for Japan to surrender? Weeks? Months? Years?

**Monster Rain**

dogma wrote:
Andrew1975 wrote:Japan did not deserve to save face by dictating the terms of their surrender, they needed to be humbled and humiliated!

Why? So big, masculine, American men could feel all big and strong?

I don't need to nuke an asian country for that.

Check out these guns.

**Ahtman**

Monster Rain wrote:
dogma wrote:
Andrew1975 wrote:Japan did not deserve to save face by dictating the terms of their surrender, they needed to be humbled and humiliated!

Why? So big, masculine, American men could feel all big and strong?

I don't need to nuke an asian country for that.

You don't really know until you try, it would seem.

**Laughing Man**

Andrew1975 wrote:Look how long peace talks lasted during the Korean war and how many people died during them.

Over sixty years. The Korean War never ended, amusingly.

**Ahtman**

davethepak wrote:Actually, very few know this

I always enjoy seeing in-group language. Getting someone to think they have special secret knowledge is a great way to get them to believe anything.

**Yak9UT**

The Bombing of Hiroshima and nagaskaki helped with the japanese surrender.

But people need to relise that Japan also surrended to the Allies when Russia entered the war.

Russia had a force of roughly 1,500,000 preparing to invade japan and with the victories the Russians had against the Japanese in mainland Asia Japan knew that it was better to surrender to the Allies then risk Soviet Occupacian of Japan

**dogma**

Andrew1975 wrote:
To quote you "Irrelevant!"

The question of "Why?" is irrelevant, or the feelings of big, strong, American men are irrelevant?

I mean, I won't lie (which is a lie) the feelings of big, strong, American men are often very relevant. Big, strong, American men are actually very effeminate, and fond of whining,

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Monster Rain wrote:
Check out these guns.

Sir, I knew Boxy Brown, and you are no Boxy Brown.

**Emperors Faithful**

Andrew1975 wrote:
Emperors Faithful wrote:
Andrew1975 wrote:Those months of quibbling ended pretty quickly once the bomb was dropped! Negotiating a surrender and surrendering are very different things. Look how long peace talks lasted during the Korean war and how many people died during them.

So, what? You're saying we should Nuke Korea?

Yeah, that's what I'm saying! Really? So how long was the US supposed to wait for Japan to surrender? Weeks? Months? Years?

That Japan would have surrendered if they got to dictate the terms is not a secret. Japan was never a threat to occupy or attack mainland USA. You say this as if you are breaking news. Japan did not deserve to save face by dictating the terms of their surrender, they needed to be humbled and humiliated!

Nice. I'm getting a total, like, humanitarian vibe off you, man.

Like, cool hippie vibe from you maaaaan! We should have just like smoked some bowls with them!

Japan did need to be humbled and humiliated, it was the only defeat they would understand and accept!

Why? So big, masculine, American men could feel all big and strong?

To quote you "Irrelevant!"

I can actually visualise you screaming at your monitor as you type this.

**Andrew1975**

Emperors Faithful wrote:
Andrew1975 wrote:
Emperors Faithful wrote:
Andrew1975 wrote:Those months of quibbling ended pretty quickly once the bomb was dropped! Negotiating a surrender and surrendering are very different things. Look how long peace talks lasted during the Korean war and how many people died during them.

So, what? You're saying we should Nuke Korea?

Yeah, that's what I'm saying! Really? So how long was the US supposed to wait for Japan to surrender? Weeks? Months? Years?

That Japan would have surrendered if they got to dictate the terms is not a secret. Japan was never a threat to occupy or attack mainland USA. You say this as if you are breaking news. Japan did not deserve to save face by dictating the terms of their surrender, they needed to be humbled and humiliated!

Nice. I'm getting a total, like, humanitarian vibe off you, man.

Like, cool hippie vibe from you maaaaan! We should have just like smoked some bowls with them!

Japan did need to be humbled and humiliated, it was the only defeat they would understand and accept!

Why? So big, masculine, American men could feel all big and strong?

To quote you "Irrelevant!"

I can actually visualise you screaming at your monitor as you type this.

Just shows how little you know maaaan!

The question of "Why?" is irrelevant, or the feelings of big, strong, American men are irrelevant?

I mean, I won't lie (which is a lie) the feelings of big, strong, American men are often very relevant. Big, strong, American men are actually very effeminate, and fond of whining,

To say that the allies dropped the bomb so that they could feel like big strong men is irrelevant and shows a lack of understanding of the discussion and boils wars down to vain big d%$# competitions. You know better. Thus the "Irrelevant" .

**Emperors Faithful**

Andrew1975 wrote:
Emperors Faithful wrote:
Andrew1975 wrote:
Emperors Faithful wrote:
Andrew1975 wrote:Those months of quibbling ended pretty quickly once the bomb was dropped! Negotiating a surrender and surrendering are very different things. Look how long peace talks lasted during the Korean war and how many people died during them.

So, what? You're saying we should Nuke Korea?

Yeah, that's what I'm saying! Really? So how long was the US supposed to wait for Japan to surrender? Weeks? Months? Years?

That Japan would have surrendered if they got to dictate the terms is not a secret. Japan was never a threat to occupy or attack mainland USA. You say this as if you are breaking news. Japan did not deserve to save face by dictating the terms of their surrender, they needed to be humbled and humiliated!

Nice. I'm getting a total, like, humanitarian vibe off you, man.

Like, cool hippie vibe from you maaaaan! We should have just like smoked some bowls with them!

Japan did need to be humbled and humiliated, it was the only defeat they would understand and accept!

Why? So big, masculine, American men could feel all big and strong?

To quote you "Irrelevant!"

I can actually visualise you screaming at your monitor as you type this.

Just shows how little you know maaaan!

Entirely correct. I have no real way of knowing whether or not you are actually grappling with your keyboard like a rabid badger as you post from the other side of the planet. It's certainly the impression you're giving though.

**Andrew1975**

It's more like watching you grapple with reality. Like we should have just thanked Japan for inviting us to the party. So long and thanks for all the fish!

**Emperors Faithful**

Andrew1975 wrote:It's more like watching you grapple with reality. Like we should have just thanked Japan for inviting us to the party. So long and thanks for all the fish!

**dogma**

Andrew1975 wrote:
To say that the allies dropped the bomb so that they could feel like big strong men is irrelevant and shows a lack of understanding of the discussion and boils wars down to vain big d%$# competitions. You know better. Thus the "Irrelevant" .

Most wars are penis measuring contests, at least to the extent that measuring one's member is tacit to being "strong". I mean really, it isn't like men rationally decide to endanger their economic futures on the basis of thing other than ego.

In any case, that isn't what I suggested. I suggested that Japan "...needed to be humbled and humiliated!" because big, masculine, American men could feel big and strong; possibly also virile.

**Andrew1975**

It appears this is typical of your contribution to treads

**dogma**

Andrew1975 wrote:It's more like watching you grapple with reality. Like we should have just thanked Japan for inviting us to the party. So long and thanks for all the fish!

Why not? The war is over, go back home, and trade with us again. Very simple, no one dies, and the world goes on merrily.

**Emperors Faithful**

Andrew1975 wrote:It appears this is typical of your contribution to treads

Avidly watching you make a fool of yourself? Certainly!

**dogma**

Andrew1975 wrote:It appears this is typical of your contribution to treads

Asking questions that no one can, or is willing to, answer?

**Andrew1975**

dogma wrote:
Andrew1975 wrote:
To say that the allies dropped the bomb so that they could feel like big strong men is irrelevant and shows a lack of understanding of the discussion and boils wars down to vain big d%$# competitions. You know better. Thus the "Irrelevant" .

Most wars are penis measuring contests, at least to the extent that measuring one's member is tacit to being "strong". I mean really, it isn't like men rationally decide to endanger their economic futures on the basis of thing other than ego.

In any case, that isn't what I suggested. I suggested that Japan "...needed to be humbled and humiliated!" because big, masculine, American men could feel big and strong; possibly also virile.

I still don't think that's the point at all. Japans code would only fold after complete and utter domination. Most people know that as historical fact. Allowing them to dictate their own terms would have allowed them to save face and justify their actions.

**dogma**

So what? Let them justify their actions. Why do we care so long as they aren't shooting our citizens?

**Andrew1975**

dogma wrote:
Andrew1975 wrote:It appears this is typical of your contribution to treads

Asking questions that no one can, or is willing to, answer?

Not you. The like, totally pacifist, lets hug japan and have a sit in guy, Emperors Faithful

Automatically Appended Next Post:

dogma wrote:So what? Let them justify their actions. Why do we care so long as they aren't shooting our citizens?

I think a justified Japan would have led to future conflict. They have not made an aggressive move in 60 years. I think that might have something to do with learning that their actions have consequences and that their honor code cost them more than it was worth.

**dogma**

Andrew1975 wrote:
I think a justified Japan would have led to future conflict.

Maybe. maybe not. I doubt it though. They lacked the resources, and had China and Russia to deal with.

Andrew1975 wrote:
...and that their honor code cost them more than it was worth.

Its not like that's gone, you know.

**Andrew1975**

dogma wrote:
Andrew1975 wrote:
I think a justified Japan would have led to future conflict.

Maybe. maybe not. I doubt it though. They lacked the resources, and had China and Russia to deal with.

They barely had the resources in the first place, that's what their expansion was about in the first place.

Andrew1975 wrote:
...and that their honor code cost them more than it was worth.

Its not like that's gone, you know.

**Emperors Faithful**

Andrew1975 wrote:I think most people forget that even after 2 bombs were dropped and the Emperor decided to surrender, the military leaders attempted coup d'etat to keep the war going. This was not an army that was looking to seriously surrender before the bombs were dropped.

You don't think their anger at what the Allies had done to their country and their people was at all justified? Put yourself in their shoes, if a powerful enemy had brutally destroyed two US cities and conducted a merciless bombing campaign on the civilian populace, you wouldn't feel fury at the very thought at surrendering to that foe? To submit to their iron heel?

It was wise of the Emperor to do what he did, to preserve the lives of his subjects by surrendering, and hoping that the Allies would prove to be a kinder occupier than the Soviets promised (which is undoubtedly true). But I can well imagine being angry enough for the deaths of my people to blind me into peaceful submission and humiliation, especially if I was in the military which was to be disbanded.

**Frazzled**

So, what? You're saying we should Nuke Korea?
***South Korea, no thats where the Wife's Kia came from. Who's a good little Kia, yes you are, yes you are!
North Korea, if they even look at us funny they should be radioactive. The next time they declare war on us the bombers should fly. As they declare war on us almost daily, I look forward to bringing our troops home by, say..Thursday?

That Japan would have surrendered if they got to dictate the terms is not a secret. Japan was never a threat to occupy or attack mainland USA. You say this as if you are breaking news. Japan did not deserve to save face by dictating the terms of their surrender, they needed to be humbled and humiliated!

Nice. I'm getting a total, like, humanitarian vibe off you, man.
***The Germans were almost ready to surrender to. Of course it took 300,000 Soviet causaulties to help them get to that conclusion. No thanks.

**Emperors Faithful**

Frazzled wrote:
So, what? You're saying we should Nuke Korea?
***South Korea, no thats where the Wife's Kia came from. Who's a good little Kia, yes you are, yes you are!
North Korea, if they even look at us funny they should be radioactive. The next time they declare war on us the bombers should fly. As they declare war on us almost daily, I look forward to bringing our troops home by, say..Thursday?

Nice, so all those civilians that really just want to scrape by? No? Nuke them too?

That Japan would have surrendered if they got to dictate the terms is not a secret. Japan was never a threat to occupy or attack mainland USA. You say this as if you are breaking news. Japan did not deserve to save face by dictating the terms of their surrender, they needed to be humbled and humiliated!

Nice. I'm getting a total, like, humanitarian vibe off you, man.
***The Germans were almost ready to surrender to. Of course it took 300,000 Soviet causaulties to help them get to that conclusion. No thanks.

There were peace talks with Hitler? I have to admit that would be disturbing. If it was true.