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By contradicting biology do you mean stop giving you the proof that biology and its laws as you know it don't apply to 40k? You haven't given me any solid rebuttals as to how biology works the way you believe it does in 40k, especially in the context of magic and even arcane pseudo-science of creating Adeptus Astartes. Also again there is nothing in the Space Wolves codex that explicitly states that failed aspirants and such don't degrade further beyond the Wulfen stage into something even more wolf-like and feral. You're not giving me anything from the actual codex or GW canon source and at this point are simply stating you don't believe in Homo Sapiens Canis which is basically just repeating your opinion without backing it up as I don't see it as the "veritable proof" as you do. Not only are you failing to reference anything in doing so but you're also just simply talking about the abhumans of Ogryns/Ratlings being descendants of humans. How does their existence make the possibility of space-marine turned wolves any less likely? The Space Wolves already have extreme genetic deviancy towards wolf-like characteristics with their elongated fangs, shaggy manes, enhanced wolf-like senses and the ability to degrade into wulfen which is more or less a step away from becoming a full-blown wolf anyways.

Please good sir, enlighten me as to how you, being a "master" of biology, can demonstrate how GW applies real-world biological principles to 40K in any real legitimate detail. Sources and references would be highly appreciated.

Yeah, you can't substitute reality for your own as you see fit, that's fanfiction, nothing else, nothing more. The Canis Helix doesn't turn you into a wolf. Actually the closest thing I can see you be turned into is Dogpound in Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles anno 2012. Again, since I'm lazy I don't care to link to it. But it's extremely easy to Google. And yes it's less likely than less likely, because iit's not likely at all, just read page bloody ten of the Space Wolves codex. Not having it, use Google again.

Honestly at this point it seems like you don't want to listen to or acknowledge any of the evidence I have provided on my side of the argument and since you don't even bother to at least give me something to work with besides "Google it" I'm just going to have to say it was very disappointing trying to have a debate with you. For future notice, considering you're in a forum, it's good to actually to try and support your arguments directly from various sources and at least give a decent explanation other than "You're wrong". It's fine to have opinions but when you don't even bother to provide proper proof to back it up it simply makes you look lax and ignorant.

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Beaviz81, don't respond. This argument is going in circles.

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I suggest both of you walk away from this thread and take a breather before action is taken to remove that option. I'm only going to say it once.

Why the hate?

1. Some people are just trolls and looking to get a rise from someone

2. Some people while not full time trolls, cant resist an easy target

3. Some people think vikings in space is a stupid idea

4. Some people are just immature and like to tear down things that others enjoy

5. Some people still have a lot of butthurt from when the the SW codex was very good and smashing face. In fact I wouldnt be surprised if there were old gamer geezers with butthurt from second edition when SW could take cyclone missile launchers and assault cannons on a single terminator.

6. Some people are immature enough to actually get emo/butthurt over the fact that the SW have a codex but their favorite chapter doesnt

7. Some people think that not only are vikings in space a naff idea, but other parts of the background are also gak. I like the SW and I think a lot of their background is plain silly.

8. Some people accidentally wasted their time reading Bill King's twaddle and thus reasonably and righteously developed hatred of all things wolfy.

Now it is an empirical fact that all the well developed factions in 40k have a metric ton of goofy, silly, over the top, 3rd rate science fiction aspects and characteristics. Because GW has terrible quality control and many second rate writers ANY AND EVERY FACTION is doomed to eventually suffer from real bad background material. It is inevitable.

This less written about your faction, the better you are off, because there is less chance of someone stinking up the background story.

I don't think you will find anybody who actually thinks Vikings in Space is a bad idea, but I think the essential problem with Space Wolves is that they are poorly written, executed poorly, and have in fact shifted away from being vikings in space.

1) Vikings in Space
About vikings in space. If Space Wolves were truely meant to be vikings in space, they should not be a loyalist chapter. I am in NO way saying that they shouldn't have their own book, merely that it should be a renegade or straight up Chaos book. They are VIKINGS. Vikings kind of have this history of ruthless pillaging and plundering- you know raping churches and burning women and stuff. Space Wolves are portrayed as fighting for the little guy which is everything a predatory viking is not. About the only thing Space Wolves have in common with Vikings is that their models have beards, they apparently like beer, and they come from an ice death world. At this point I would like to point out Warhammer Fantasy Battle Warriors of Chaos. Here be Vikings! The men of the north raid and pillage empire and bretonnian villages in much the same way as the Vikings of our own history. And guess what they ruthlessly worship the chaos gods!

2) Its more like Werewolves in space.
So Space Wolves lack the fundamental fluff to be legitimate space vikings, GW apparently figured that to fix this they would over emphasize the wolf factor,
So now the codex is basically codex space WOLVES. I say this in large part due to both the models, and the naming patterns in the codex itself. The Wolves- non ironically I might add- are famous for fielding things like this:

- a WOLF lord, wearing a WOLF pelt, riding on top of a thunder WOLF, armed with a WOLF claw, with a WOLF tooth neclace

I capitalized the word wolf to illustrate my point, and honestly by the end of that sentence "wolf" had actually stopped looking like a word! We get it, they are the space wolves, but I mean really, are we worried that we will forget that they are the space wolves if every bit of custom wargear they had didn't have Wolf in it somewhere?... cyberwolves, fenresian wolves, mark of the wolfen, jaws of the world wolf, wolf standard, wolf guard, wolf, wolf, wolf wolf...

Werewolves are hip with the kids these days! But even in the mainstream the werewolves are portrayed as pretty normal, they don't USUALLY walk around in wolf print tee shirts, wearing necklaces and bracelets made of wolf teeth, or wrapping themselves in wolf skins. People call space wolves furries because the codex is so obsessed with wolves that it boarderlines on creepy. However calling the Codex Space Furries is a cheap shot which (rightfully so) makes space wolf players defensive, and doesn't really address the above issue, at its heart, that the codex is annoying, .... Canis Wolfborn... I rest my case.


In summation

In summation I don't think space wolves are a bad idea, and I think there was a lot of potential for the faction to actually be cool space vikings. But that longboat has long since sailed. Space Wolves should always have been more alligned to Warriors of Chaos in space, a ruthless pilliaging band of Space Pirates- as it stands the Space Wolves are the opposite of Space Vikings in every single way that actually matters. The unhealthy obsession with the word wolf, is straight up obnoxious.

And over all while I don't think that the Wolf Codex is overpowered in any way in 6th edition, it does not stop them from still being obnoxious.

Agreed but while I dislike space wolves for the reasons you have stated I also dislike them as they are SO pompous and self assured. As I said earlier they are the dwarfs of 40k. A legion with their foot/paw too far up their own a$$

I like the sw the lion and the wolf thing is awesome it makes me laugh. I wish they put in HH short story book.

I saw some people mentioning how the bias in each Codex is because it is writen as one of that race/chapter explaining themselves.

Some Codexes, like the Eldar, are still written from an Imperial standpoint....so their 'fluff' seems much less powerful than the kind of stuff you'd find in the Codex of the Space Wolves.

My answer to the original poster and the debate in general:
I do not hate the Space Wolves, nor their conceptual idea, nor the people that play them. I dislike some of the stuff written of them in that they evidently can't do anything wrong...despite intentionally doing everything 'wrong' in the eyes of so many other Chapters and Imperial organizations. Also as some have said, they are linked to far too many opposite attributes to make sense(Berserking warriors who heedlessly go to battle...of course while being amazingly tactical about that heedless rush....).

They have no major flaws, either biological or in practice really. They have better senses than all other astartes and better tactics. It would be fine if they were a ruthless, purely berserker type of chapter like the Flesh Tearers, but they aren't

I'm not a BA fan, but they at least have a flaw. Black Rage means nobody is exactly eager to be near them. BA are welcome by imperial forces, but by no means are they the chapter a sane commander would be desiring.

Even UM have a weakness, they adhere to the codex too strictly. It may be fine to deviate a tiny bit, but any more than that and you get sent to the chaplains office.

Salamanders are physically slightly slower than other chapters, and their unwillingness to put innocent people in danger often means they have to divert resources that could otherwise be used to defend/capture invaluable imperial assets while another chapter might dedicate all resources to that goal. They are also obsessed with the 9 relics of Vulkan.

Dark Angels are too secretive. Also they'll leave you to hunt Luther and his cronies.

Blood Ravens often seem to recieve "gifts" from other chapters. Also their members seem to be either slightly more prone to falling to chaos.

IF are stubborn as feth, they set a goal, and that's it. They might respect guardsmen and value the life of civilians, but they won't hesitate for a second to use them to achieve a goal.

Raven Gaurd? I have no clue about their lore.

BaconUprising wrote:
Blood Angels are awesome IMO way better than the wolves who are the dwarfs of 40k, desperately clinging to tradition and reluctant to change. To the point where they accuse all other chapters/legions of being weak and untrustworthy. Also they had the most hypocritical idiot of a Primarch ever who would have been annihilated by Sanguinius, Angron, Horus, Lion, Corax, (mid heresy) Lorgar if they had ever fought him. The wolves also got majorly slapped around by Alpha legion and would have been utterly destroyed on Prospero if Phosis T'kar had got over his guilt or Magnus had bothered to show up earlier.

To add to that point, pretty much the only reason they won was because:
1 they has tons of sisters of silence
2 Thousand sons didn't even attack the wolves until they were half way into Tizca.

And this is the best butthurt comment I ever read.
Wolves could be beated by anyone. Ok, no seriously, believe it.
Sanguinius better the Russ? Yes. Horus? Of course, he beated Sanguinius and was nearly killing the EMPEROR. The Lion? Well, it's a draw. Corax? Why the should fight first of all? And no, Corax was a master in hidden attacks. In a honorably 1 vs 1 Russ would win. Angron? Angron is strong, but is so focused on bloodshed that he probably would be tricked by RUSS. RUSS... TRICKING... if you understand the point. What Blood Angels have to do with the Wolves Hate? Again, BA Fanboys, ATTACK! For the Emperor and Sanguinius! Magnus actually was beaten by Russ. BACKBRACKER, melon-fethers. Though, IMHO it's another draw.
The Wolves destroyed the II and the XVIII (? or was it another legion?) Legion. They were the executioner. Your argoument is invalid.




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amudkipz wrote:
They have no major flaws, either biological or in practice really. They have better senses than all other astartes and better tactics. It would be fine if they were a ruthless, purely berserker type of chapter like the Flesh Tearers, but they aren't

Ehm... nope? I'm a SW fan, but the Canis Helix have a major flaw. He can turn you into a SPESS werewolf. Or a wolf, if the whole thing in Prospero Burns it's correct. So, I think this IS a flaw. In werewolf mode they are savage, they are beast. Yes, the 13th Company in the EoT is still somewhat sane and is still loyal, but a Wulfen often is a mindless beast who would slain a SW or a Heretic indiscriminately.

Party is over.