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Is it possible that this Tau "Player" is having the entire suit team fire at each target?
IE: all four suits fire at tank A, then all fire at tank B, and so on.
THAT might explain how he's wiping out 3 tanks and a squad...
BTW, OP, Target Locks do NOT allow that!
Only the "owning" unit with the Target Lock may fire at a separate target.
Even if all four suits in that team have Target Lock, that'd mean that each suit could hit ONE extra target.
IE: Commander shoots Tank A, Suit 1 shoots Tank B, Suit 2 shoots Tank D, and Suit 3 shoots at the Squad.
As said earlier, with each suit shooting one target, there's no way he'd wipe all four targets.
Sounds seriously off to me, and I've only been able to 'read for fun' 6th ed so far!
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/08/15 15:51:08
Yeah the only way I could see that happen is he's either pulling a fast one on you or he's got target locks on all 4 and has used up all his luck for the rest of the week in one round of shooting.
Tau certainly have some nasty rules against which it is quite easy to come unstuck fairly easy. The biggest issue when they were released wasn't the fact that they were particularly nasty, more the fact that the new tau are head and shoulders above the old tau and require a completely different set of tactics to beat. They are also an army which more than most, require you to use units in synergy to maximise their efficiency, take out one element, and you badly affect their overall abilities.
The most common build i've seen is firewarriors behind an ADL, pathfinders, riptides and some other supporting units to support them. leading to a fairly static army that is essentially counting on you trying to get to grips with them, so they can negate your coversaves, annihilate you with high AP weapons, and then move forward with the firewarriors in the mid to late game to claim objectives. Its a nightmare to get close to, suicide to assault, and with the range and potency to have a good deal of board control.
The counter i have used, to very great effect is to start to use more whirlwinds in my IF force. they can blast pathfinders out of buildings, ignore ADL's with correct placement, and given the number of players i see who pack their firewarriors in behind ADL's like sardines, absolutely massacre their scoring units. without markerlights your units in buildings can withstand return fire a lot better, and without firewarriors they can't score. then its just a matter of dealing with riptides, which can be annoying, but sniper rifles can threaten them so i've started using them more too.
The good thing is, that whirlwinds are good against quite a few armies, especially given their low points cost, so you aren't hamstringing yourself, and they have the range to sit nice and safe away from anything the tau can throw at you.
Deepstrikers are an issue, but at the very least you get 1 turn of shooting from your whirlwinds, and against a largely intact army, which you should have when they arrive, its pretty much a suicide mission unless its a farsight bomb.
The key is not to go 'OMGWTFOP' but to make their strengths work for you without necessarily crippling your TAC list against everyone else
Thank you madtankbloke for posting those tactics and showing that Tau are not the super uber boogymen that people seem to think. You are absolutely correct with Whirlwinds, those tanks are devastating on the field against Tau and other Xenos threats.
General Annoyance wrote: Fire Warriors are some of the most expensive standard troops in the game, and T3 and a save of 4+ is rather average for 10 points.
ummm, fire warriors are the cheapest, and best troops choice in the whole flipping game... str 5 30" range, with awesome synergy from dirt cheap characters, for 10pts...
my elite storm troopers are t3 4+, for 10 pts, and have worse guns, with worse range, and are not troops...
one firewarrior is better then two guards men, for the same cost.
that being said, I have a fairly decent time handling tau since i can get into combat 2nd turn and have plenty of ignores cover stuff, but they are the best codex right now, by far, on top of that it seems like too many people are either mistakingly/deliberaty not knowing their own rules so that might compound it (ie ethereals giving 4X shots at full range, more then one over watch from supporting fire, ect)
General Annoyance wrote: Fire Warriors are some of the most expensive standard troops in the game, and T3 and a save of 4+ is rather average for 10 points.
ummm, fire warriors are the cheapest, and best troops choice in the whole flipping game... str 5 30" range, with awesome synergy from dirt cheap characters, for 10pts...
my elite storm troopers are t3 4+, for 10 pts, and have worse guns, with worse range, and are not troops...
one firewarrior is better then two guards men, for the same cost.
that being said, I have a fairly decent time handling tau since i can get into combat 2nd turn and have plenty of ignores cover stuff, but they are the best codex right now, by far, on top of that it seems like too many people are either mistakingly/deliberaty not knowing their own rules so that might compound it (ie ethereals giving 4X shots at full range, more then one over watch from supporting fire, ect)
easysauce wrote: lol I stand corrected... even BETTER best troops ever...
tis the next dex anywys
Er...I beg to differ. Despite being "only" 9 points they still only have a max of 12 men per unit meaning that they can only take so many casualties before they take a leadership test which is quite average for them without the use of an ethereal. Their lack of an in-unit ability/upgrade to mitigate this also makes them that much more susceptible to multiple Ld-based attacks such as psychic powers or pinning weaponry. Also that 4+ save, while decent, only increases their survivability against AP5 weaponry such as bolters and they are still, if not more so due to smaller squad size, vulnerable to weapons such as heavy flamers, the Hellhound's inferno cannon, a Whirlwind missile launcher, and other blast template weapons that they will likely encounter due to their predilection towards a more static-gun line sort of deployment to make the most of supporting fire. Also don't forget that as a troops choice they lack any options for special weapons that could supplement their firepower which, though S5 is impressive, leads them to lack a level of diversity/versatility in a unit that other troops choices can have that prevents them from being a truly best unit in the game. They're definitely good especially in the context of their own codex but I think saying there the best troops is a bit of a stretch. Notably they're also only BS3 meaning that they miss half of their shots most of the time which isn't bad but often requires buffs from a Fireblade or Ethereal to get more dakka to compensate which IMO I think the "best" troops shouldn't have to rely upon and should be more able to be self-sufficient in their roles.
For example in comparison to Ork boyz, who are 3 points cheaper, we can take large ass mobz of boyz that are fearless, have a bosspole with a Nob in case for back-up as well as have the option to take a power klaw to crack open transports and with shoota boyz in particular we have a massive volume of anti-infantry shots that allow us to overwhelm most units which can supplemented even further with big shootas or with, though it's not as common, rokkit launchas to further give us chances to strip off several hull points and even get a lucky penetration shot for a possible immobilization/weapon destroyed result for vehicles. This is without mentioning how we can hold our own in combat with our massed attacks (even more so with slugga boyz) and overwatch the shizzle out of anyone foolish enough to charge them. And the best part is that the very same weapons that hurt MEQ and 4+ save units like Fire Warriors such as a Heldrake's Baleflamer don't really mean much to them with how we only have a 6+ save anyways and that the casualties they suffer are expendable since you need to wittle boyz down to under 10 models in order to start making them take leadership tests and it's really hard to do all that when you're swarming on the table with 3-4 units of 30 boyz rampaging through all in their path. The best part is that even with only 20 boyz they're still quite effective (again particularly as shootas) which mean you can choose to go for a more mobile force if you want to and put them in battlewagons instead. All of this without the need of an external force aiding them and athough they can obviously benefit from HQ choices being attached to them like KFF meks their inclusion does not change their offensive/defensive output so much that they're auto-includes when taking them.
There's several other contenders such as Grey Hunters who also have an amazing versatility in their 2 special weapons options mixed in with having counter attack and both a bolter alongside their bolt pistol/CCW making them amazing objective holders since they lose nothing from you charging them. There's also Eldar Guardians/Dire Avengers that can tear through all kinds infantry with precision through their shuriken weapons and retreat with impunity thanks to battle focus.
9 pts for 30" str 5 weapon, and 4+ save is huge...
ethereals are dirt cheap, and give a ld10 bubble , + more shots and buffs, to all the fire warriors around them.
thats far more effective then 1.5 orks
the orks will get shot before they get 24" to the tau...
orks do not have a 6+ FNP yet, so thats really not a good arguement to make...
tau get 4+ armour with cheap long ranged str 5 shots for 9pts, thats dirt cheap, for high str, range, 4+ is an awesome armour save... thats almost marine level, sure flamers/autocanons/hbolters go through it... so what... no small arms fire goes through it, and that is the point... may as well say 3+ armour is useless because of plasma/helldrakes too.
easysauce wrote: 9 pts for 30" str 5 weapon, and 4+ save is huge...
ethereals are dirt cheap, and give a ld10 bubble , + more shots and buffs, to all the fire warriors around them.
thats far more effective then 1.5 orks
the orks will get shot before they get 24" to the tau...
orks do not have a 6+ FNP yet, so thats really not a good arguement to make...
tau get 4+ armour with cheap long ranged str 5 shots for 9pts, thats dirt cheap, for high str, range, 4+ is an awesome armour save... thats almost marine level, sure flamers/autocanons/hbolters go through it... so what... no small arms fire goes through it, and that is the point... may as well say 3+ armour is useless because of plasma/helldrakes too.
He never said anything about 6+ FNP. And you can't say that they're better because they're cheap, and then go on to say you have to buy another character for them. That doesn't work.
Ethereals also give up VP, which isn't good in an edition that often comes down to secondaries.
You have failed to address most of the points given:
•Lack of numbers.
•Lack of special/heavy weapons
•Have to pay a premium for support to make them effective (ethereals, fireblades, markerlights etc.), which means they aren't cheap at all. Grey Hunters are far better on their own in this respect.
•No staying power. 10 rapid firing bolters at fire warriors will kill 4 (that being the most likely result). This is appalling for 9ppm.
•Orks are probably better for staying power because of T4.
Note to the reader: my username is not arrogance. No, my name is taken from the most excellent of commanders: Lord Castellan Creed, of the Imperial Guar- I mean Astra Militarum - who has a special rule known only as "Tactical Genius"... Although nowhere near as awesome as before, it now allows some cool stuff for the Guar- Astra Militarum - player. FEAR ME AND MY TWO WARLORD TRAITS.
easysauce wrote: 9 pts for 30" str 5 weapon, and 4+ save is huge...
ethereals are dirt cheap, and give a ld10 bubble , + more shots and buffs, to all the fire warriors around them.
thats far more effective then 1.5 orks
the orks will get shot before they get 24" to the tau...
orks do not have a 6+ FNP yet, so thats really not a good arguement to make...
tau get 4+ armour with cheap long ranged str 5 shots for 9pts, thats dirt cheap, for high str, range, 4+ is an awesome armour save... thats almost marine level, sure flamers/autocanons/hbolters go through it... so what... no small arms fire goes through it, and that is the point... may as well say 3+ armour is useless because of plasma/helldrakes too.
Since Tactical_Genius already pointed out how using a character to justify their "awesomeness" is contradictory to them being the best troops choice (because again a good troops choice would imply that they can get along without external character/army buffs) I find it funny you bring up 3+ armour being useless because for all intents and purposes 3+ armour is becoming increasingly less useful because of the proliferation of anti-MEQ ignoring cover weaponry in the current meta such as heldrakes, things like marker lights taking away cover saves for that one squad squatting in a ruin to suffer the full effects of an S8 AP2 large blast from their riptide and also standard infantry weaponry such as Eldar shuriken catapults having pseudo-rending results in that 3+ save ending up not being what it's chalked up to be. Why do you think marines are going down in cost? It's because they have to compensate for how easy it is to dispatch marines in 6th edition! So if killing marines too quickly is becoming so common that GW has to lower their unit costs this shows that by extension that Tau Fire Warriors, who are much less versatile in general, are even MORE vulnerable as they have an even crappier save while also being T3. Then you throw in the rest of the arguments that you haven't countered and I find it hard to believe that Fire Warriors are what you would consider the "best troops in the game".
ummm, fire warriors are the cheapest, and best troops choice in the whole flipping game... str 5 30" range, with awesome synergy from dirt cheap characters, for 10pts...
)
and yet they're straightjacketed into a single role: killing (light) infantry, and pretty much lack any and all flexibility via heavy, and special weapons, zero cc ability, and very limited staying power courtesy of low toughness and a decent-at-best armour save.
they're good. but they're neither the cheapest, nor the best.
my elite storm troopers are t3 4+, for 10 pts, and have worse guns, with worse range, and are not troops...
ap3 guns and more shots and options, lets not forget. and bear in mind, storm troopers are generally regarded as a really poor choice in the codex. compare them to veterans instead.
one firewarrior is better then two guards men, for the same cost.
in ways he is. but is he better than guard tanks? is he better than guard artillery? Is he better than guard flyers? you cant compare individual choices in a codex without looking at the codex in its entirety.
beyond that, there are a hell of a lot more guardsmen than there are fire warriors. fire warrior guns are overkill againt guardsmen. lasguns in return have very decent kill ratios against fire warriors. in any case, its apples and oranges.
easysauce wrote: 9 pts for 30" str 5 weapon, and 4+ save is huge...
.
only if they were unkillable. plenty things outrange them, and outkill them.
tau get 4+ armour with cheap long ranged str 5 shots for 9pts, thats dirt cheap, for high str, range, 4+ is an awesome armour save... thats almost marine level, sure flamers/autocanons/hbolters go through it... so what... no small arms fire goes through it, and that is the point... may as well say 3+ armour is useless because of plasma/helldrakes too.
No, not really.
4+ isnt "awesome". t3 and 4+ is decidedly weak. it means they're wounded on 3s by the widely used basic weapons in the game (str4) and they fail half their saves. note: basic weapons. throw in flamers and h.flamers and fire warriors literally melt. and beyond the long casualty lists which will be forcing leadership checks, lets point out that thier leadership is dicey at best.
beyond that, lets look at other factors. what are fire warriors role in the game? well, they're a shooting unit whose job is to kill infantry, preferably light infantry. and they do that reasonably well. str5 is good. but think about this - when i think 'shooting unit whose job is to kill infantry', i think a squad of devestators loaded with h.bolters. they both outrange fire warriors and outkill fire warriors. i know who is winning that shooting duel.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/15 22:53:48
easysauce wrote: 9 pts for 30" str 5 weapon, and 4+ save is huge...
ethereals are dirt cheap, and give a ld10 bubble , + more shots and buffs, to all the fire warriors around them.
thats far more effective then 1.5 orks
the orks will get shot before they get 24" to the tau...
orks do not have a 6+ FNP yet, so thats really not a good arguement to make...
tau get 4+ armour with cheap long ranged str 5 shots for 9pts, thats dirt cheap, for high str, range, 4+ is an awesome armour save... thats almost marine level, sure flamers/autocanons/hbolters go through it... so what... no small arms fire goes through it, and that is the point... may as well say 3+ armour is useless because of plasma/helldrakes too.
He never said anything about 6+ FNP. And you can't say that they're better because they're cheap, and then go on to say you have to buy another character for them. That doesn't work.
Ethereals also give up VP, which isn't good in an edition that often comes down to secondaries.
You have failed to address most of the points given:
•Lack of numbers.
•Lack of special/heavy weapons
•Have to pay a premium for support to make them effective (ethereals, fireblades, markerlights etc.), which means they aren't cheap at all. Grey Hunters are far better on their own in this respect.
•No staying power. 10 rapid firing bolters at fire warriors will kill 4 (that being the most likely result). This is appalling for 9ppm.
•Orks are probably better for staying power because of T4.
Orks in trukks lack numbers too (max unit size 12)
Orks lack special weapons too (1 per 10 models and rokkits are useless)
I already die to bolter over watch. Guess how well I will survive a str 5 bolter overwatch from multible units
I got 6+ save
Nope. Orks have very poor staying power. Hard to get into cc, lack the puch to do anything, furious charge wears off.
Every time I hear "in my opinion" or "just my opinion" makes me want to strangle a puppy. People use their opinions as a shield that other poeple can't critisize and that is bs.
If you can't defend or won't defend your opinion then that "opinion" is bs. Stop trying to tip-toe and defend what you believe in.
the only tau troops that I sweat are the danged Kroot a couple blobs of those can give orks fits..(danged sneaking hiding sniper) that and Stealth suits ..(shudder)
Farsight Enclave units ..easy as pie to wipe out ..not enough bodies ..
Farsight bomb into my backfeild ..amoung all my troops ..what are you mad ..orks love it when the squishy fishboy jumps in the middle and puts himself not only in shooty range but inside assult range as well ..of everything...we then bury him in bodies ...and go mop up the rest of the feild since about half his points just got wasted ..and most of the ork points are still standing..)
Shadowsun or darkstrider setup right Max stealth suits ..Lots of kroot blobs, with snipers, hidden in the trees and hounds, Pathfinders running about.. now thats downright scary...but still killable..(this one gives me the hardest time and the best fight )
Tau sitting back in a gun line ..well thats what Kommandoes and outflanking deffkoptas are fore ..
Orks in trukks lack numbers too (max unit size 12)
Orks lack special weapons too (1 per 10 models and rokkits are useless)
I already die to bolter over watch. Guess how well I will survive a str 5 bolter overwatch from multible units
I got 6+ save
Nope. Orks have very poor staying power. Hard to get into cc, lack the puch to do anything, furious charge wears off.
Kind of seeing the Support fire thing be thrown around non-stop in this thread... Is everyone who has a problem with this fighting a Tau army thats deployed within a 6" bubble? While I a lot of people like to spread their army out to prevent pieplates from riping up good portions of their army... maybe its time to include some pieplates to remove this 6" bubble force.
About the orks lacking numbers... Have you tried green tide?
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3k
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easysauce wrote: 9 pts for 30" str 5 weapon, and 4+ save is huge...
ethereals are dirt cheap, and give a ld10 bubble , + more shots and buffs, to all the fire warriors around them.
thats far more effective then 1.5 orks the orks will get shot before they get 24" to the tau...
orks do not have a 6+ FNP yet, so thats really not a good arguement to make...
tau get 4+ armour with cheap long ranged str 5 shots for 9pts, thats dirt cheap, for high str, range, 4+ is an awesome armour save... thats almost marine level, sure flamers/autocanons/hbolters go through it... so what... no small arms fire goes through it, and that is the point... may as well say 3+ armour is useless because of plasma/helldrakes too.
He never said anything about 6+ FNP. And you can't say that they're better because they're cheap, and then go on to say you have to buy another character for them. That doesn't work. Ethereals also give up VP, which isn't good in an edition that often comes down to secondaries.
You have failed to address most of the points given: •Lack of numbers. •Lack of special/heavy weapons •Have to pay a premium for support to make them effective (ethereals, fireblades, markerlights etc.), which means they aren't cheap at all. Grey Hunters are far better on their own in this respect. •No staying power. 10 rapid firing bolters at fire warriors will kill 4 (that being the most likely result). This is appalling for 9ppm. •Orks are probably better for staying power because of T4.
Orks in trukks lack numbers too (max unit size 12) Orks lack special weapons too (1 per 10 models and rokkits are useless) I already die to bolter over watch. Guess how well I will survive a str 5 bolter overwatch from multible units I got 6+ save Nope. Orks have very poor staying power. Hard to get into cc, lack the puch to do anything, furious charge wears off.
Er...no offense but have you faced Orks before? Either in green tide or battlewagon bash format? Because number one while you're right about trukk boyz being small in number typically that is mitigated by having another set of trukk boyz tagging along to provide additional support/soak overwatch fire. Anyone who runs Speed Freaks/Trukk Spam knows that you always go with the buddy system so you're not just using 12 boyz to do the work for you.
Furthermore it seems you ignored my post about Battlewagon Bash and Ork Boyz of 20 inside them. They are by far more common than Trukk Boyz and are far more fearsome as well with their additional numbers and thanks to it being open-topped they can be assault vehicles AND mobile-dakka bunkers that are relatively impervious to your vaunted S5 dakka as well with shoota boyz. Also they do have access to special weapons and you can't ignore this simply because you don't like rokkit launchas. You forget they have dirt cheap big shootas which only add to their massive volume of shots from shoota boyz and while rokkit launchas may not be the bees knees like meltas it does provide an alternative supply of supplementary anti-vehicle fire especially in this edition where you just need to knock off a few hull points and the vehicle is wrecked. This is furthered from the addition of the PK nob that still is invaluable this edition for cracking open tanks and tearing through people in challenges. Plus in a green tide list cumulative amounts of rokkit launchas and big shootas take their toll which you can't easily eliminate like devastators thanks to the high number of ablative wounds.
Also in terms of bolter over watch...again it's only on rolls of 6 to hit and not like the end all be all as you make it seem. Orks are all about numbers so even if one unit gets chewed up by supporting fire (which again makes them vulnerable to multi-assault and blast/flamer templates) it means the rest of the boyz are able to get stuck in after they waste all their shots on one unit. And if they spread it out over the others then they just set themselves up for more units to deal with to tear them apart in melee.
Of course the individual ork dies relatively fast (and even then at least they're T4) that's why they're bloody 6 points each and you take more than 12 of them to take on a unit! That's why mob rules there to give them fearless when they inevitably take casualties, and they can handle it! What more do you want? T10? 3++ invuln. save? I swear some people are so used to playing MEQ and TEQ armies that they can't understand how horde armies work and that armour saves by themselves are not what makes a unit useful.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/16 03:19:00
I know S5 weapons are good, but I think they've actually taken a step back since Kroot are cheaper even with Sniper rounds. I mean the one nice thing about S5 is that you can still wound MC more than bolters, but then they give Kroot a 4+ wounding weapon. FW have better armor, but really they were always going to be in cover anyways. Kroot just have far better deployment options.
Firewarriors are just kind of a bad place to be. They're a versatile unit that has the firepower to do several roles, but it's a bad army for that. When you can customize just about any unit for a specific role for no significant cost having a unit that does several jobs decently just feels like it does no job effectively. Which is why I think Kroot are better. They do many jobs decently, and for cheaper with more deployment options.
Also toss in that Firewarriors have a terrible transport, which for some reason people keep trying to explain is the best transport in the game. Super expensive, one decent weapon option, only one worthwhile upgrade that's also on the expensive side, and the large size really just make it more of a hassle. The only time I've ran one in the last 2 years has been trying out the recon drone deployment shenanigans... then I realized stealth suits can do the same for a better price and easier.
I'm expecting an Imperial Knights supplement dedicated to GW's loyalist apologetics. Codex: White Knights "In the grim dark future, everything is fine."
"The argument is that we have to do this or we will, bit by bit,
lose everything that we hold dear, everything that keeps the business going. Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky."
-Tom Kirby
easysauce wrote: 9 pts for 30" str 5 weapon, and 4+ save is huge...
ethereals are dirt cheap, and give a ld10 bubble , + more shots and buffs, to all the fire warriors around them.
thats far more effective then 1.5 orks
the orks will get shot before they get 24" to the tau...
orks do not have a 6+ FNP yet, so thats really not a good arguement to make...
tau get 4+ armour with cheap long ranged str 5 shots for 9pts, thats dirt cheap, for high str, range, 4+ is an awesome armour save... thats almost marine level, sure flamers/autocanons/hbolters go through it... so what... no small arms fire goes through it, and that is the point... may as well say 3+ armour is useless because of plasma/helldrakes too.
He never said anything about 6+ FNP. And you can't say that they're better because they're cheap, and then go on to say you have to buy another character for them. That doesn't work.
Ethereals also give up VP, which isn't good in an edition that often comes down to secondaries.
You have failed to address most of the points given:
•Lack of numbers.
•Lack of special/heavy weapons
•Have to pay a premium for support to make them effective (ethereals, fireblades, markerlights etc.), which means they aren't cheap at all. Grey Hunters are far better on their own in this respect.
•No staying power. 10 rapid firing bolters at fire warriors will kill 4 (that being the most likely result). This is appalling for 9ppm.
•Orks are probably better for staying power because of T4.
Orks in trukks lack numbers too (max unit size 12)
Orks lack special weapons too (1 per 10 models and rokkits are useless)
I already die to bolter over watch. Guess how well I will survive a str 5 bolter overwatch from multible units
I got 6+ save
Nope. Orks have very poor staying power. Hard to get into cc, lack the puch to do anything, furious charge wears off.
Er...no offense but have you faced Orks before? Either in green tide or battlewagon bash format? Because number one while you're right about trukk boyz being small in number typically that is mitigated by having another set of trukk boyz tagging along to provide additional support/soak overwatch fire. Anyone who runs Speed Freaks/Trukk Spam knows that you always go with the buddy system so you're not just using 12 boyz to do the work for you.
Furthermore it seems you ignored my post about Battlewagon Bash and Ork Boyz of 20 inside them. They are by far more common than Trukk Boyz and are far more fearsome as well with their additional numbers and thanks to it being open-topped they can be assault vehicles AND mobile-dakka bunkers that are relatively impervious to your vaunted S5 dakka as well with shoota boyz. Also they do have access to special weapons and you can't ignore this simply because you don't like rokkit launchas. You forget they have dirt cheap big shootas which only add to their massive volume of shots from shoota boyz and while rokkit launchas may not be the bees knees like meltas it does provide an alternative supply of supplementary anti-vehicle fire especially in this edition where you just need to knock off a few hull points and the vehicle is wrecked. This is furthered from the addition of the PK nob that still is invaluable this edition for cracking open tanks and tearing through people in challenges. Plus in a green tide list cumulative amounts of rokkit launchas and big shootas take their toll which you can't easily eliminate like devastators thanks to the high number of ablative wounds.
Also in terms of bolter over watch...again it's only on rolls of 6 to hit and not like the end all be all as you make it seem. Orks are all about numbers so even if one unit gets chewed up by supporting fire (which again makes them vulnerable to multi-assault and blast/flamer templates) it means the rest of the boyz are able to get stuck in after they waste all their shots on one unit. And if they spread it out over the others then they just set themselves up for more units to deal with to tear them apart in melee.
Of course the individual ork dies relatively fast (and even then at least they're T4) that's why they're bloody 6 points each and you take more than 12 of them to take on a unit! That's why mob rules there to give them fearless when they inevitably take casualties, and they can handle it! What more do you want? T10? 3++ invuln. save? I swear some people are so used to playing MEQ and TEQ armies that they can't understand how horde armies work and that armour saves by themselves are not what makes a unit useful.
Times I have taken my BW's against Tau they have been blown up with ease. Suits drop in for rear armor shots 2 to 3 BW's explode killing 9 or so of those boys in the process. Marker lights and missile sides take out a 15 man loota squad in 1 turn. Kinda puts you in a conundrum if you see your opponent has deep striking suits. You want to get your boys up and in your opponents face but to do that most the time you are going to expose your rear armor for those suits. If you don't see the suits however your BW's have a chance of getting your boys into range to actually shoot their own guns. My money is still on the tau though. But comparing a boy to a firewarrior is apples and oranges S5 shots are awsome but so is fearless, you need this unit to make the firewarriors better but need a nob with bosspole and a high squad count for the boys, boys with big shootas for every 10 in a truk that will be 1 in a bw 2 on foot 3. Taking cover saves from orks really just destroys them so vs orks the markerlights are worth their weight in gold but vs marines maybe not so much lots of things effect how you look at either unit. Waiting for a new ork dex to see where things go for them now.
Is this thread still going on?
They are powerful.
They are dominating Tournaments.
Friendly games are being annihilated by the new Tau, no matter what list they take.
And people still claim they aren't strong and there is nothing wrong with the army?
What the hell is wrong with you guys? Just admit it and get on with your lives or stay out of the thread -_-'
Friendly games are being annihilated by the new Tau, no matter what list they take.
Probably because, as we've established, "friendly" for many people seems to mean "unfocused pile of random units". So yes, of course they're getting annihilated by an army that at least helps you avoid making the worst list-building mistakes. Maybe these "friendly" players should try improving their lists a bit before complaining.
And people still claim they aren't strong and there is nothing wrong with the army?
Being strong and being overpowered are not the same thing. Tau are obviously a good army. They are not an overpowered army.
What the hell is wrong with you guys? Just admit it and get on with your lives or stay out of the thread -_-'
IF YOU DONT AGREE WITH ME STOP POASTING PLZ!!!!!!
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Peregrine wrote: Probably because, as we've established, "friendly" for many people seems to mean "unfocused pile of random units". So yes, of course they're getting annihilated by an army that at least helps you avoid making the worst list-building mistakes.
And as I've seen even the Tau need to have some redundancy in the form of several units that can do the same thing. Once one link in the army goes down the rest lose effectiveness at exponential rates.
My mate's outflanking Kroot are generally useless because he only has one large pack of them. They hurt my backfield a bit, then get killed. Suits need to be deployed in numbers too, otherwise they'll get chewed up or be forced to JSJ out of the way of the main battle. And the poor firewarriors and pathfinders can't really take anything once even one SoB squad with flamer/heavy flamer gets close enough (and they eventually do because I run several in rhinos). Even if I'm forced to disembark and footslog from a wrecked rhino I'm already in range to throw some bolter shots upfield, and it doesn't take many casualties to force a morale check on the Tau troops. No troops, no scoring.
Kangodo wrote: Is this thread still going on?
They are powerful.
They are dominating Tournaments.
Friendly games are being annihilated by the new Tau, no matter what list they take.
And people still claim they aren't strong and there is nothing wrong with the army?
What the hell is wrong with you guys? Just admit it and get on with your lives or stay out of the thread -_-'
I think someone is a bit angry.
They are powerful They are dominating tournaments. Freindly games are being annihilated.
I don't know what the your issue is with Tau but it is deep seeded. They are honestly a decent army with decent toys that can do things really well because of synergy. You take a unit out it weakens the entire army, You take markerlights out you weaken the entire army. So far every argument that makes Tau seem to be uber awesome and amazing has been countered with rational, logical, kind explanations on why that belief is bunk. In response we get posts like yours. Nothing but anger, resentment and a dose of spite just because for some reason you have a bitter vendetta against a particular army.
Perhaps you should stay out of the thread if you have nothing credible to say with actual facts to backup your statements.
To add to that, It's not just the army but sometimes also the player - skill, experience and opponents not used to their own army.
For example... People were a bit upset at our Necron player in our friendly mini-tournament last year where he mostly crushed everything thrown at him. But the fact is he's also a very good player. He did an extra game, taking one of the armies he absolutely crushed and played it against his own Necrons (another player playing them). He crushed them too.
easysauce wrote: 9 pts for 30" str 5 weapon, and 4+ save is huge...
ethereals are dirt cheap, and give a ld10 bubble , + more shots and buffs, to all the fire warriors around them.
thats far more effective then 1.5 orks
the orks will get shot before they get 24" to the tau...
orks do not have a 6+ FNP yet, so thats really not a good arguement to make...
tau get 4+ armour with cheap long ranged str 5 shots for 9pts, thats dirt cheap, for high str, range, 4+ is an awesome armour save... thats almost marine level, sure flamers/autocanons/hbolters go through it... so what... no small arms fire goes through it, and that is the point... may as well say 3+ armour is useless because of plasma/helldrakes too.
He never said anything about 6+ FNP. And you can't say that they're better because they're cheap, and then go on to say you have to buy another character for them. That doesn't work.
Ethereals also give up VP, which isn't good in an edition that often comes down to secondaries.
You have failed to address most of the points given:
•Lack of numbers.
•Lack of special/heavy weapons
•Have to pay a premium for support to make them effective (ethereals, fireblades, markerlights etc.), which means they aren't cheap at all. Grey Hunters are far better on their own in this respect.
•No staying power. 10 rapid firing bolters at fire warriors will kill 4 (that being the most likely result). This is appalling for 9ppm.
•Orks are probably better for staying power because of T4.
Orks in trukks lack numbers too (max unit size 12)
Orks lack special weapons too (1 per 10 models and rokkits are useless)
I already die to bolter over watch. Guess how well I will survive a str 5 bolter overwatch from multible units
I got 6+ save
Nope. Orks have very poor staying power. Hard to get into cc, lack the puch to do anything, furious charge wears off.
Er...no offense but have you faced Orks before? Either in green tide or battlewagon bash format? Because number one while you're right about trukk boyz being small in number typically that is mitigated by having another set of trukk boyz tagging along to provide additional support/soak overwatch fire. Anyone who runs Speed Freaks/Trukk Spam knows that you always go with the buddy system so you're not just using 12 boyz to do the work for you.
Furthermore it seems you ignored my post about Battlewagon Bash and Ork Boyz of 20 inside them. They are by far more common than Trukk Boyz and are far more fearsome as well with their additional numbers and thanks to it being open-topped they can be assault vehicles AND mobile-dakka bunkers that are relatively impervious to your vaunted S5 dakka as well with shoota boyz. Also they do have access to special weapons and you can't ignore this simply because you don't like rokkit launchas. You forget they have dirt cheap big shootas which only add to their massive volume of shots from shoota boyz and while rokkit launchas may not be the bees knees like meltas it does provide an alternative supply of supplementary anti-vehicle fire especially in this edition where you just need to knock off a few hull points and the vehicle is wrecked. This is furthered from the addition of the PK nob that still is invaluable this edition for cracking open tanks and tearing through people in challenges. Plus in a green tide list cumulative amounts of rokkit launchas and big shootas take their toll which you can't easily eliminate like devastators thanks to the high number of ablative wounds.
Also in terms of bolter over watch...again it's only on rolls of 6 to hit and not like the end all be all as you make it seem. Orks are all about numbers so even if one unit gets chewed up by supporting fire (which again makes them vulnerable to multi-assault and blast/flamer templates) it means the rest of the boyz are able to get stuck in after they waste all their shots on one unit. And if they spread it out over the others then they just set themselves up for more units to deal with to tear them apart in melee.
Of course the individual ork dies relatively fast (and even then at least they're T4) that's why they're bloody 6 points each and you take more than 12 of them to take on a unit! That's why mob rules there to give them fearless when they inevitably take casualties, and they can handle it! What more do you want? T10? 3++ invuln. save? I swear some people are so used to playing MEQ and TEQ armies that they can't understand how horde armies work and that armour saves by themselves are not what makes a unit useful.
1000 point list
4 trukks of boyz (~600pts)
1 hq(~100pts)
+extra (pair of dakkajets, 1 bw with boyz or something else)
I would recon that two units of fire warroirs can take out majority of that list pretty easily while only costing 1/5 of total point costs.
Every time I hear "in my opinion" or "just my opinion" makes me want to strangle a puppy. People use their opinions as a shield that other poeple can't critisize and that is bs.
If you can't defend or won't defend your opinion then that "opinion" is bs. Stop trying to tip-toe and defend what you believe in.
You only have one turn to take it out if you go second. Two if you go first. Fire warriors aren't taking out all that in one/two turns. Not only that, but it's a bad list.
Trukk spam isn't effective with only 4 trukks, and so going BW spam would work better. This would mean more boyz, and more AV14. Good luck fire warriors.
Note to the reader: my username is not arrogance. No, my name is taken from the most excellent of commanders: Lord Castellan Creed, of the Imperial Guar- I mean Astra Militarum - who has a special rule known only as "Tactical Genius"... Although nowhere near as awesome as before, it now allows some cool stuff for the Guar- Astra Militarum - player. FEAR ME AND MY TWO WARLORD TRAITS.
I have to agree, Trukk spam lists is just that spamming the hell out of trukk's You can never go wrong with a mass amount of boys green wave is devastating to almost all the armies out there right now.
They are powerful They are dominating tournaments. Freindly games are being annihilated.
I don't know what the your issue is with Tau but it is deep seeded. They are honestly a decent army with decent toys that can do things really well because of synergy. You take a unit out it weakens the entire army, You take markerlights out you weaken the entire army. So far every argument that makes Tau seem to be uber awesome and amazing has been countered with rational, logical, kind explanations on why that belief is bunk. In response we get posts like yours. Nothing but anger, resentment and a dose of spite just because for some reason you have a bitter vendetta against a particular army.
Perhaps you should stay out of the thread if you have nothing credible to say with actual facts to backup your statements.
I don't have any personal issues with the Tau. Our group hardly plays them.
I do have an issue with people denying the obvious.
People have explained the issue with Tau more than enough, you should really show me those "counters".
All I get in return is stuff like "but they are really weak in melee!", how many times do you want me to point out that this melee-weakness is nonsense?
They are powerful They are dominating tournaments. Freindly games are being annihilated.
I don't know what the your issue is with Tau but it is deep seeded. They are honestly a decent army with decent toys that can do things really well because of synergy. You take a unit out it weakens the entire army, You take markerlights out you weaken the entire army. So far every argument that makes Tau seem to be uber awesome and amazing has been countered with rational, logical, kind explanations on why that belief is bunk. In response we get posts like yours. Nothing but anger, resentment and a dose of spite just because for some reason you have a bitter vendetta against a particular army.
Perhaps you should stay out of the thread if you have nothing credible to say with actual facts to backup your statements.
I don't have any personal issues with the Tau. Our group hardly plays them.
I do have an issue with people denying the obvious.
People have explained the issue with Tau more than enough, you should really show me those "counters".
All I get in return is stuff like "but they are really weak in melee!", how many times do you want me to point out that this melee-weakness is nonsense?
If all you have gotten from this thread so far is that "melee-weakness" is the only chink in Tau's armor then you need to re-read the entire thread. There have been multiple posts explaining more than once how to deal with all the complaints people have against Tau.
As far as your argument about me having to re-explain everything in the thread again posted by Tau commanders perhaps you should do as I previously stated and re-read the thread. If you have an issue with this thread in general perhaps you should just not lurk in it. It does seem that you have exceeding bitterness against this particular army for reasons unknown other then the supposed "obvious" that honestly is not so obvious in the first place other than lackluster complaints from people that are not willing to change their play-styles or army lists.
Tactical_Genius wrote: You only have one turn to take it out if you go second. Two if you go first. Fire warriors aren't taking out all that in one/two turns. Not only that, but it's a bad list.
Trukk spam isn't effective with only 4 trukks, and so going BW spam would work better. This would mean more boyz, and more AV14. Good luck fire warriors.
With bw spam you can have max 3 units of boyz and 1 warboss
This list couldn't kill a single riptide without focusing entire army on the riptide.
Every time I hear "in my opinion" or "just my opinion" makes me want to strangle a puppy. People use their opinions as a shield that other poeple can't critisize and that is bs.
If you can't defend or won't defend your opinion then that "opinion" is bs. Stop trying to tip-toe and defend what you believe in.
' ~9000pts
' ~1500
" ~3000
" ~2500 
2k
/ 
1k
1k 
your issue is with Tau but it is deep seeded. They are honestly a decent army with decent toys that can do things really well because of synergy. You take a unit out it weakens the entire army, You take markerlights out you weaken the entire army. So far every argument that makes Tau seem to be uber awesome and amazing has been countered with rational, logical, kind explanations on why that belief is bunk. In response we get posts like yours. Nothing but anger, resentment and a dose of spite just because for some reason you have a bitter vendetta against a particular army.