Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The underlined is incorrect. This assertion has been made and proven incorrect before.

That is your assertion and not fact at all.

chanceafs wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
It is almost as if those two sentences are in the same paragraph and have some shared meaning due to the positioning of the words in proximity to each other.....

Like normally? Still waiting on that answer. Not asking about scoring, merely asking if page 123 states that troops control objectives.

I assume you are referring to the sentence "The presence of other units within 3" of an objective may deny an objective to the enemy, but only troops can control it." And assuming that the phrase 'but only troops can control it' means that all troops can control it, however, that is not what that part of the sentence says. That sentence is pointing out that nothing that isn't a troop can control an objective (unless other rules override this), it is NOT saying that ALL troops can control an objective.

Actually, strict RAW the sentence states, "but only troops can control it", expressly states troops can control objectives. Any other definition is personal opinion. You can add in the rest of the sentence, but it doesn't change anything at all.

In order to find out what can hold an objective you have to look earlier on the page... "You control an objective if there is at least one model from one of your scoring units (and no models from enemy denial units, within 3" of it." Which leads to the question, what is a scoring unit... fortunately the answer to that is also on that page "An army's scoring units are normally all the units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organization chart" It then proceeds to spell out specific exceptions justifying the use of the word 'normally' that so many of you are hanging your arguments of.

Strict RAW, the sentence leads to nothing. We have already established that troops can control the objective, but we are left with troops can control an objective, but to control an objective you need a scoring unit within 3". Logic would dictate that since troops(unspecified) can control objectives, we could establish that troops are scoring indirectly.

The first sentence of that paragraph is meaningless because of the inclusion of normally, and the fact that selection is not specifically defined in the rules(as a textbook definition it could be applied to whatever agenda you want, the same as normally). The sentence neither hinders nor helps my argument, strictly RAW(because of the vague language).

I will be more than happy to argue anyone with context if they prefer(which we would need to specify either applying the reasoning of the book when it was written, or what the context is currently and how either would apply to formations because there would be a significant difference).

So, troops selection of the FOC... that is not 'troops section of the codex'... if any troops in a codex were automatically scoring, they wouldn't have to spell out all the above rules in such detail. They could just say 'troops are scoring' and be done with it. Since it never says that, there must be a reason why not, and that reason is made pretty clear above.

You're trying to imply why they didn't just say "All troops are scoring", which is a RAI argument. RAW, we deal with the hand we are dealt.

RAI, i think you should be able to score with troops in a formation... but strict RAW, if there is no FOC to make selections from in a Formation, then it doesn't matter what type of units they are because they are not "troop selections from the FOC", thus they are NOT scoring units, thus they cannot claim objectives.

RAI, we agree. RAW, they can claim objectives, and the definition of claiming an objective is to have a scoring unit within 3".

 thejughead wrote:

The underlined is incorrect. This assertion has been made and proven incorrect before.

That is your assertion and not fact at all.

Wait - so you've found rules saying that?
Or... Not?
You haven't quoted actual rules saying that.

Rigeld2,

I suggest you go back and read my posts. I have stated rules. You continue to ignore the quotes and dataslates rules for that matter.

Abandon wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Abandon, what the feth does being FROM something mean if it doesn't mean being in that area?

Are you seriously asking the difference between being from something and being in something?

liturgies of blood wrote:Abandon and sinful I amn't playing this game anymore. You have yet to show any rules and are filibustering rather than arguing.

I'm not sure what game you believe is being played. The rules in question have been quoted many times and I have answered every question and argument you have had except perhaps the above which I was not sure was meant seriously. I'll rehash one argument I've made that supports my point of view and it may help answer that question if you were indeed wondering.

Why do so many seem to read 'currently in the troops selection of the FOC' when it distinctly says 'from the troops selection of the FOC'? No idea what I'm talking about? Well lets say I want to buy a unit of genestealers for a formation.

I check the dataslate for how to purchase this unit and it tells me to purchase it as normal.
I check the nids codex for how to purchase it and it tells me to follow the guidelines in the BRB
I check the BRB and it tells me to use the FOC troops slots to purchase the unit...

Where did I get the unit from? From the FOC. Specifically from the troops selection of the FOC
'But, but, but...' you say 'it's not [i]in a slot on the FOC, it can't be from the FOC'[/i]

I assure you it can and is from the troops selection of the FOC, as surly as the groceries in my refrigerator are from the grocery selection of the store even though they are not in the store. You see you don't need to be in a place to be from it. It refers to where you originate, not where you currently are.

There is no requirement for the unit to be on the troops selection of FOC, only that it is from there.
-I selected those genestealers from a troops slot(or selection if you prefer) of the FOC. That is where they are from and no non-slot occupying state will change that.
-And before you say it again, no that does not conflict in any way with buying non-troops units as troops were that is possible. Purchasing a unit as troops means you use a troop slot to do so meaning they are from... the troops selection of the FOC.

How is it then that the Genestealers formation has no FoC chart and doesn't conform to any FoC chart ?

The category of a unit listing in the Codex isn't the FoC.

Uptopdownunder wrote:
How is it then that the Genestealers formation has no FoC chart and doesn't conform to any FoC chart ?

The category of a unit listing in the Codex isn't the FoC.

Why would it matter? As I rather pointedly pointed out, you don't need to be in the FOC to be from the FOC.

"all the units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organisation chart" (emphasis mine)
Genestealers can only be purchased from the troops selection of the FOC. There is no other way to get them so there is no denying where they 'come from'.

How can you be purchased from something that doesn't exist ?

It has to be from the troops selection of the FoC not the troops category of the Codex.

Uptopdownunder wrote:
How can you be purchased from something that doesn't exist ?

It has to be from the troops selection of the FoC not the troops category of the Codex.

How do you purchase a unit for a formation?
-The same way you purchase a unit for you primary detachment. With the FOC slots.

But formations don't have any FOC slots.
-Correct. They have no slots nor do they require any because they don't take up slots.

So what slots do you use to purchase them?
-Looks like you have to use your primary slots.

If you have a better answer as to what slots formation units are selected from(come from) please let me know. As far as I can tell they must be purchased using your regular slots specifically for a formation whose units do not use up those slots. I see no other way of purchasing troops formation units for your army other than through the troops selection of the FOC.

You're making the false assumption that no FoC = no can purchase but that is not correct.

Formations are a purchase mechanism that doesn't require an FoC simply because the formation has a specific make up.

"An Adeptus Astartes Storm Wing is a Formation that consists of the following units chosen from Codex: Space Marines:
• 1 Stormraven Gunship
• 2 Stormtalon Gunships"

No mention of slots and there is no FoC in the dataslate.

Uptopdownunder wrote:
You're making the false assumption that no FoC = no can purchase but that is not correct.

Formations are a purchase mechanism that doesn't require an FoC simply because the formation has a specific make up.

"An Adeptus Astartes Storm Wing is a Formation that consists of the following units chosen from Codex: Space Marines:
• 1 Stormraven Gunship
• 2 Stormtalon Gunships"

No mention of slots and there is no FoC in the dataslate.

Does it tell you the units are purchased normally? If so that's from the FOC. It's literally the only function that 'normally' allows you to select units for your army.

There are rules for how you build your army and the FOC must be used to add units unless some exception is specifically noted. This is not noted for any dataslates I've seen though I'll admit that's not nearly all of them. This is a permissive rule set so I'm curious by what process you believe you are permitted to add those units to your army? It says what they consist of but details no purchasing mechanism of it's own, in fact saying the normal method must be used. Hence, the FOC must be used.

Anyone who says TROOPS taken from formations is either trying to be a nitpicking power gamer or just a"that guy" and just wouldn't play him, they are scoring.

 gmaleron wrote:
Anyone who says TROOPS taken from formations is either trying to be a nitpicking power gamer or just a"that guy" and just wouldn't play him, they are scoring.

While I agree they score I would disagree with the rest. There are very valid reasons for questioning whether or not they are scoring as has been demonstrated by the many well thought out posts here in this thread and in others as well. This is far from a question I would use to label someone a WAAC player but we all have our opinions.

Nowhere that I have read says "purchase normally". If it does say that anywhere I can't see that it means anything beyond you pay points for them as normal.

There is no requirement to follow the Codex FoC, or any other FoC for that matter, if there is I'd be stoked if you can give me a page reference for it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gmaleron wrote:
Anyone who says TROOPS taken from formations is either trying to be a nitpicking power gamer or just a"that guy" and just wouldn't play him, they are scoring.

Under the tenants of Dalka YMDC we are disvussing the RAW, HIWPI is that they score as it seems logical to do so but there aren't any hard and fast rules to say that.

Uptopdownunder wrote:
Nowhere that I have read says "purchase normally". If it does say that anywhere I can't see that it means anything beyond you pay points for them as normal.

There is no requirement to follow the Codex FoC, or any other FoC for that matter, if there is I'd be stoked if you can give me a page reference for it.

I don't see any mechanic that allows you to just pay points and have the unit(s). That is not 'normal'. There is a cost associated with units but no direct means of getting them without FOC slots. So how do you believe formation units are selected to be in your army?

There is an assumption in my argument but it's not regarding having to use slots to select units for your army. It's that you can add formation units to your army at all by using your existing slots to select them. Otherwise I see no legal method of adding formations to your army at all and that assumption only extends to defining 'normal' as using your FOC slots.

So there's the root of my argument. If they are legally in your army they came from the FOC. If they are troops(or are purchased as troops) they had to come from the troops selection of the FOC. Otherwise the army was not put together by the rules.

Formations are selected for your army by assembling them as directed in the Dataslate, unless that dataslate includes an FoC chart, as some of them do, then they aren't bought as FoC slots.

Those are the actual rules the ones written in the books that tell you how to make the formations.

Uptopdownunder wrote:
Formations are selected for your army by assembling them as directed in the Dataslate, unless that dataslate includes an FoC chart, as some of them do, then they aren't bought as FoC slots.

Those are the actual rules the ones written in the books that tell you how to make the formations.

...they tell you to purchase the units from the army list entry.

"An Army List Entry provides all the relevant information to field a single unit in games of Warhammer 40,000 ... The unit can be used as part of any Detachment that corresponds to the Faction listed on the datasheet." -Tyranid Vanguard Rising Leviatan I, Army List entries

No mention of any special way to add the unit, it just refers you to the army list and tells you those units can be used in a formation. You are not permitted to buy a unit for a formation by the dataslate rules I've seen but you are permitted to use the unit in a formation. So you buy the unit first and then use it in a formation where it no longer occupies a slot. The only way to obtain the unit in the first place is still the FOC meaning that is still where it 'comes from'.

Force Orgainisation Chart is notebly absent from your quotes.

Uptopdownunder wrote:
Force Orgainisation Chart is notebly absent from your quotes.

You have provided zero quotes concerning how to purchase units in a formation.

I have shown that the units can only be purchased normally and then used in a formation. Care to back your own claims?

Scoring units are those from the Troops section of the FOC
Formations do not have a FOC.

QED

Uptopdownunder wrote:
Scoring units are those from the Troops section of the FOC
Formations do not have a FOC.

QED

This is false. All detachments are part of the FOC. You have it wrong. An FOC is not a subset of the detachment. The FOC as defined by the BRB is the entire Army including the all detachments. The crux of the argument rest with the "Selection" is limited to the little boxes in the diagram.

 thejughead wrote:

Uptopdownunder wrote:
Scoring units are those from the Troops section of the FOC
Formations do not have a FOC.

QED

This is false. All detachments are part of the FOC. You have it wrong. An FOC is not a subset of the detachment. The FOC as defined by the BRB is the entire Army including the all detachments. The crux of the argument rest with the "Selection" is limited to the little boxes in the diagram.

It is demonstrably not. If I am running an entire Militarum Tempestus army, I must select troops choices (Scions). I can put 3 of them in Valkyries as well. Then I must select an HQ, say a MT Command Squad. This too will get a Valkyrie. Lastly, I throw in a Commissar to ensure that the troops remain steadfast in the face of the enemies of Mankind.

Suddenly I'm the datasheet, and get all sorts of awesome special rules.

Why would my troops suddenly become un-scoring?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 thejughead wrote:

Uptopdownunder wrote:
Scoring units are those from the Troops section of the FOC
Formations do not have a FOC.

QED

This is false. All detachments are part of the FOC. You have it wrong. An FOC is not a subset of the detachment. The FOC as defined by the BRB is the entire Army including the all detachments. The crux of the argument rest with the "Selection" is limited to the little boxes in the diagram.

It is demonstrably not. If I am running an entire Militarum Tempestus army, I must select troops choices (Scions). I can put 3 of them in Valkyries as well. Then I must select an HQ, say a MT Command Squad. This too will get a Valkyrie. Lastly, I throw in a Commissar to ensure that the troops remain steadfast in the face of the enemies of Mankind.

Suddenly I'm the datasheet, and get all sorts of awesome special rules.

Why would my troops suddenly become un-scoring?

Are you arguing that troops ARE scoring in formations? Because that's what he said as well.

I also got confused who says what.

Uptopdownunder wrote:
Scoring units are those from the Troops section of the FOC
Formations do not have a FOC.

QED

Right, never disagreed with that.

Now if you'd care to give us some quotes please supporting your view of how units for formations are purchased for your army. I'll wait...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


Why would my troops suddenly become un-scoring?

A very good question.

I use the troops selection of the FOC to select a unit of five genestealers for my army. I decide to use them in a formation. Suddenly they are not on the FOC and yet they still came from the troops selection of the FOC so they are still scoring.

Opponent says: You can't do that. You bought those as part of your primary detachment.

I say: Actually the data slate says I can indeed use them as part of a formation.

Opponent: They not on the FOC so they don't score.

Me: They're still from the FOC even if they are no longer on it and the rule says 'any units that come from the troops selection of the FOC'.

Oppenent: No, you have to buy formation units for the formation not for your primary detachment.

Me: Nothing says that and there is no rule allowing anyone to buy units specifically for a formation. It does in fact say I can use those units in a formation though so I've taken the only logical course by selecting them with my primary slots and then using them in a formation.

"An Adeptus Astartes Storm Wing is a Formation that consists of the following units chosen from Codex: Space Marines:
• 1 Stormraven Gunship
• 2 Stormtalon Gunships"

"A Manufactorum Genestealers Formation consists of the following units:
• 5 Genestealer Broods"

No FoC there mate.

Perhaps you'd best provides some quotes on your made up notion of a "purchasing process" that extends beyond "as normal (which I can't find mentioned anywhere)" and includes a reference to a Force Organisation Chart.

"I use the troops selection of the FOC to select a unit of five genestealers for my army. "

Which FOC are you referring to? There isn't one in the Nid dataslate.

If the units are not visible on the FOC then it cannot be said the units are from the troops selection of the foc. Hence how can they be scoring?

Can you show some evidence for this "all formation units arrive in my army by way of the primary detachment" argument?

If the formation units come from a codex other than the one used for the primary detachment can you show how you can have more than one codex in the same detachment?

The rules actually say that you buy the units for the formation, the formation is a detachment consisting of X where x is the list. You don't move units through the primary slots for the rest of the FOC and you are making up rules, admitting it and are as such arguing RAI.

Also putting 5 genestealer units in the formation means you don't have the 2 troops minimum in your primary and have an illegal list.

Uptopdownunder wrote:"An Adeptus Astartes Storm Wing is a Formation that consists of the following units chosen from Codex: Space Marines:
• 1 Stormraven Gunship
• 2 Stormtalon Gunships"

"A Manufactorum Genestealers Formation consists of the following units:
• 5 Genestealer Broods"

No FoC there mate.

Perhaps you'd best provides some quotes on your made up notion of a "purchasing process" that extends beyond "as normal (which I can't find mentioned anywhere)" and includes a reference to a Force Organisation Chart.

"I use the troops selection of the FOC to select a unit of five genestealers for my army. "

Which FOC are you referring to? There isn't one in the Nid dataslate.

So still not quotes to show how those units are purchased... please back up you arguments per the tenets of the forum.

I have shown quotes to support my claim. Mention of the FOC is not required for it and you would know that if you actually were attempting to understand it.

BTW, there is only one FOC for an army so I'm assuming either the last line contains a trick question or you don't really know what you're talking about.

liturgies of blood wrote:If the units are not visible on the FOC then it cannot be said the units are from the troops selection of the foc. Hence how can they be scoring?

Can you show some evidence for this "all formation units arrive in my army by way of the primary detachment" argument?

If the formation units come from a codex other than the one used for the primary detachment can you show how you can have more than one codex in the same detachment?

The rules actually say that you buy the units for the formation, the formation is a detachment consisting of X where x is the list. You don't move units through the primary slots for the rest of the FOC and you are making up rules, admitting it and are as such arguing RAI.

Also putting 5 genestealer units in the formation means you don't have the 2 troops minimum in your primary and have an illegal list.

-Line by line-
Incorrect. Whether or not the unit is there says nothing regarding whether or not the unit 'comes from' there.

You mean aside from them referring you to the army list in the codex to purchase them which I already quoted? Well as that is the only way to purchase a unit from the army list that's pretty self evident.

You can't as far as I know ever have units from different factions in the same detachment but if you want a formation from another codex there's always the allied detachment slots to use to purchase units from.

Citation required here. I only see that you can use them for a formation. Every other rule regarding acquiring them just refers you the the codex. I've made up no rules. I in fact quoted the rule allowing you to use them in a formation. The rule makes no exception for how the unit is obtained. It says a unit of 5 genestealers can be used in a formation. No rule bars you from using units selected for your primary detachment in this fashion. This also happens to be the only rules supported way of doing it unless you can prove your statement that you can buy units specifically for a formation.

No using a unit 5 genestealers in a formation does not make a list illegal. It simply means they will not count toward your requirements so other units that do must be taken to fill those.
Edit: You said 5 units of genestealers and I missread as I was talking about a unit of 5. still does not make a list illegal. Those units now do not take up slots as part of a formation so you are free to select other units to fill your requirements.

Not every formation can be arrived at by buying units for your primary detachment.

But if you did, would they suddenly stop being scoring?

I.E. my militarum tempestus example - I qualify for the extra special rules from the formation by having all of the models it mandates, even though they were bought as a primary detachment.

You're saying I can either choose to field it as the formation or the primary detachment?

Because literally the only difference are the fancy and imo rather pointless special rules.

Your formation is required to have certain units in it. Where do purchase those units from?