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The Army list section is a summary. Where are the special rules for the units in that section?

Fragile wrote:
The Army list section is a summary. Where are the special rules for the units in that section?

Relevance? Because the special rules have nothing to do with the FOC. They're listed in the Bestiary which isn't sorted by HQ/Elite/Troops/FA/HS.

Fragile, what makes something a troops choice is not that it is listed as a troops choice but if it takes up a troops slot. See Tervigons.
Where something's rules are listed don't matter because all that matters in this conversation is where on the FOC those units are and in this case that is a special area called "formation".

This topic has been argued a couple months ago for a while http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/575701.page

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Fragile, what makes something a troops choice is not that it is listed as a troops choice but if it takes up a troops slot. See Tervigons.
Where something's rules are listed don't matter because all that matters in this conversation is where on the FOC those units are and in this case that is a special area called "formation".

Spawned termigants are not taking up a slot on your armies FOC either.

"An army's scoring units are normally all the units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organisation chart"

By it's broadest definition this does not mean 'must currently occupy a troop slot' it simply means they're from the troops selection of the FOC which describes every unit in the troops section of the codex. Also notice it does not say 'selection from your FOC' it says 'selection from the FOC' not indicating the selections you made rather indicating the selections that could be made.

I guess what it really comes down to is: Can a troops unit be described as 'from the troops selection of the Force Organisation chart' before you purchase it? I'd say yes, they are a troop you can select through the FOC. Looking at it that way, it doesn't matter if I actually select them or not, they are from that selection.

They must be from 'the troop selection' and are not required to be from 'your troop selection'.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Fragile, what makes something a troops choice is not that it is listed as a troops choice but if it takes up a troops slot. See Tervigons.
Where something's rules are listed don't matter because all that matters in this conversation is where on the FOC those units are and in this case that is a special area called "formation".

Units spawned in the middle of the game (such as from tervigons or from daemon's portalglyph) don't take up a FoC slot. Are they not scoring either?

 CrownAxe wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Fragile, what makes something a troops choice is not that it is listed as a troops choice but if it takes up a troops slot. See Tervigons.
Where something's rules are listed don't matter because all that matters in this conversation is where on the FOC those units are and in this case that is a special area called "formation".

Units spawned in the middle of the game (such as from tervigons or from daemon's portalglyph) don't take up a FoC slot. Are they not scoring either?

Good question! Man it's a shame no rules..

“A unit spawned by a Tervigon is identical in every way to a Termagant unit chosen from the Troops section of the army list, and is treated as such for all mission special rules.”

Excerpt From: Games Workshop Ltd. “Codex: Tyranids.” iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.

Oh. Identical. Treated as for all mission special rules. Oh.

Well, I'm sure dataslates include similar wording since everyone keeps saying they're comparable. Mind quoting it?

If a unit is scoring because it's 'identical to a unit chosen from the Troops section of the army list' then a unit actually chosen from the troop section of the army list must be scoring.

Your literally saying that something identical to X is scoring while X is not scoring.

Termigants in a formation are termigants chosen from the troops section of the army list.
Spawned termigants are identical to termigants chosen from the troops section of the army list.

Oh. it's like their the same... identical...

rigeld2 wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Fragile, what makes something a troops choice is not that it is listed as a troops choice but if it takes up a troops slot. See Tervigons.
Where something's rules are listed don't matter because all that matters in this conversation is where on the FOC those units are and in this case that is a special area called "formation".

Units spawned in the middle of the game (such as from tervigons or from daemon's portalglyph) don't take up a FoC slot. Are they not scoring either?

Good question! Man it's a shame no rules..

“A unit spawned by a Tervigon is identical in every way to a Termagant unit chosen from the Troops section of the army list, and is treated as such for all mission special rules.”

Excerpt From: Games Workshop Ltd. “Codex: Tyranids.” iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.

Oh. Identical. Treated as for all mission special rules. Oh.

Well, I'm sure dataslates include similar wording since everyone keeps saying they're comparable. Mind quoting it?

 tetrisphreak wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
So the Formation calls them troops choices?

Yes.

If they are troops in the formation then yes they are scoring, however if they are just units chosen from your codex but not listed as troops in the formation, even though they would be troops in your codex, then no.

That being said, most of the formations do no strip the units of their troop status.

 DJGietzen wrote:
If they are troops in the formation then yes they are scoring, however if they are just units chosen from your codex but not listed as troops in the formation, even though they would be troops in your codex, then no.

That being said, most of the formations do no strip the units of their troop status.

What formation lists them as troops? Out of interest, in the Tyranids' it's just a list of units by name.

"An Army List Entry provides all the relevant information to field a single unit in games of Warhammer 40,000, including its points value and battlefield role."

In all of the Tyranid dataslates they contain army list entries, including which part of the FOC they're taken from in large captial letters at the top, such as TROOPS for Warriors, Genestealers, etc.

 liturgies of blood wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:
If they are troops in the formation then yes they are scoring, however if they are just units chosen from your codex but not listed as troops in the formation, even though they would be troops in your codex, then no.

That being said, most of the formations do no strip the units of their troop status.

What formation lists them as troops? Out of interest, in the Tyranids' it's just a list of units by name.

Every formation has listed the unit with their appropriate FoC

 liturgies of blood wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:
If they are troops in the formation then yes they are scoring, however if they are just units chosen from your codex but not listed as troops in the formation, even though they would be troops in your codex, then no.

That being said, most of the formations do no strip the units of their troop status.

What formation lists them as troops? Out of interest, in the Tyranids' it's just a list of units by name.

Not the one I am looking at now, nor the one already posted on this thread at least once - they have the big, bold heading of TROOPS listed there.

 Nilok wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Well, I'm sure dataslates include similar wording since everyone keeps saying they're comparable. Mind quoting it?

 tetrisphreak wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
So the Formation calls them troops choices?

Yes.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/at/2014/1/25/cb7ff5022a5ed60aae85133d28973eb6_24153.jpg__thumb

Nope, no similar wording there.
So not comparable to the Tervigon comparison people keep making.

Got anything else? Being listed under Troops isn't enough - we know that because of units that can shift FOC.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
"An Army List Entry provides all the relevant information to field a single unit in games of Warhammer 40,000, including its points value and battlefield role."

In all of the Tyranid dataslates they contain army list entries, including which part of the FOC they're taken from in large captial letters at the top, such as TROOPS for Warriors, Genestealers, etc.

The underlined is incorrect.
Unless you're asserting that FOC shifting units cannot score.
If you hang your argument on the Army List, FOC shifted units can't score. If you hang your argument on the slots they're purchased for, dataslates can't score.

Are you saying a Tervigon taken as a Troops choice isn't taken from the Troops section of the FOC?

A Termagant brood is a Troops choice, therefore it is scoring.
A Termagant brood spawned from a Tervigon is a Troops choice, therefore it is scoring.
A Tervigon taken as a Troops choice is a Troops choice, therefore it is scoring.
An Endless Swarm Termagant brood is a Troops choice, therefore it is scoring.
An Incubator Node Tervigon taken as a Troops choice is a Troops choice, as are the Termagants it produces, therefore they are scoring.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Are you saying a Tervigon taken as a Troops choice isn't taken from the Troops section of the FOC?

No - it absolutely is. But where is it on the Army List (which is what your argument is referencing).

A Termagant brood is a Troops choice, therefore it is scoring.

Agreed.

A Termagant brood spawned from a Tervigon is a Troops choice, therefore it is scoring.

Because of the rule I quoted, agreed.

A Tervigon taken as a Troops choice is a Troops choice, therefore it is scoring.

Because of the FOC shift (which ignores the Army List entry).

An Endless Swarm Termagant brood is a Troops choice, therefore it is scoring.

False. It's a unit in a dataslate and exists outside the FOC. Hence it cannot be a Troops choice.

An Incubator Node Tervigon taken as a Troops choice is a Troops choice, as are the Termagants it produces, therefore they are scoring.

False. It's a unit in a dataslate and exists outside the FOC. Hence it cannot be a Troops choice.
The Termagants it produces, however, are scoring - per the rule I quoted earlier.

Funny, that screen shot shows a TROOPS right above those genestealers. Must be some new kind of troops...

Fragile wrote:
Funny, that screen shot shows a TROOPS right above those genestealers. Must be some new kind of troops...

So your argument is that the Army List is definitive? Is that correct?

rigeld2 wrote:

An Endless Swarm Termagant brood is a Troops choice, therefore it is scoring.

False. It's a unit in a dataslate and exists outside the FOC. Hence it cannot be a Troops choice.
.

False.

I guess you mean that it's a unit in a formation and is therefore outside the FOC - whether a unit is listed in a dataslate hardly affects its status.

In any case, the argument's flawed; In the Vanguard dataslate, for instance, it specifically states that "a formation is a special form of Detachment" (p3), and detachments are clearly listed in the FoC. A "special form" is clearly a sub-set.

Likewise, in the BRB it states that scoring units "normally" come from the troops section of FOC, so perhaps that's your argument? In which case, the word normally means what it customarily means, and the dataslate's introduction states that the battlefield role is descibred in the dataslate; and, of course, the battlefield role is described as troops.

I can't see any real way of excluding troops listed in dataslates (subject to Levels of Alliance criteria, where relevant) - apart from the overall belief that "a unit in a dataslate" is somehow tainted. But that's a belief not supported by the rules.

Likewise, the assertion that models are "a unit in a dataslate", and are therefore outside the FOC and can't by definition score would also mean that Skyblight Gargoyles don't score. Again, they plainly do. The more one looks at this claim, the more it seem to emanate from a general dataslate prejudice which isn't supported by the rules.

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

An Endless Swarm Termagant brood is a Troops choice, therefore it is scoring.

False. It's a unit in a dataslate and exists outside the FOC. Hence it cannot be a Troops choice.
.

False.

I guess you mean that it's a unit in a formation and is therefore outside the FOC - whether a unit is listed in a dataslate hardly affects its status.

In any case, the argument's flawed; In the Vanguard dataslate, for instance, it specifically states that "a formation is a special form of Detachment" (p3), and detachments are clearly listed in the FoC. A "special form" is clearly a sub-set.

Sure. Now - show me on the FOC where a Formation Detachment has Troops slots. I'll wait.

Likewise, in the BRB it states that scoring units "normally" come from the troops section of FOC, so perhaps that's your argument? In which case, the word normally means what it customarily means, and the dataslate's introduction states that the battlefield role is descibred in the dataslate; and, of course, the battlefield role is described as troops.

It can't be that there are sometimes scoring units in other FOC slots - HQs can score (Trazyn for Necrons, HS/FA in the specific missions, Sternguard with Pedro...)
So that argument isn't flawed.

I can't see any real way of excluding troops listed in dataslates (subject to Levels of Alliance criteria, where relevant) - apart from the overall belief that "a unit in a dataslate" is somehow tainted. But that's a belief not supported by the rules.

False. I've shown that it is actually supported by the rules. You're making assumptions to prove your point. I underlined one of them above.

Anything that shifts things to troops are mentioned IN ITS OWN ENTRY. To use the example of Draigo and paladins. As long as Draigo is in your army, Paladins are troop choices. Thats a FOC shift from elite to Troops, but there are no shifts from Troops to Elite or Fast Attack, or Heavy support that I know of, except Iyanden letting a wraithlord be an HQ.

But the entire argument thus far against TROOPS in formations that are clearly TROOPS and would score as TROOPS because nothing is changing them away from being TROOPS - is that "It looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, smells like a duck, but its actually an anteater."

rigeld2 wrote:

Sure. Now - show me on the FOC where a Formation Detachment has Troops slots. I'll wait.

Why wait? Detachments are within the FOC. Troops slots are within the detachment (see that screen grab earlier).

rigeld2 wrote:

It can't be that there are sometimes scoring units in other FOC slots - HQs can score (Trazyn for Necrons, HS/FA in the specific missions, Sternguard with Pedro...)
So that argument isn't flawed.

So, you've pointed out that scoring units, while "normally" coming from the Troops section of the FoC, do not have to. Which, once again, brings us back to the fact that dataslate troops are scoring, subject only to Levels of Alliance criteria, meaning they have to be from the same force or IIRC Battle Brothers.

 DragonOfAsh wrote:
Anything that shifts things to troops are mentioned IN ITS OWN ENTRY. To use the example of Draigo and paladins. As long as Draigo is in your army, Paladins are troop choices. Thats a FOC shift from elite to Troops, but there are no shifts from Troops to Elite or Fast Attack, or Heavy support that I know of, except Iyanden letting a wraithlord be an HQ.

The Wraithlord isn't actually an HQ, just a Warlord.
And yes - FOC can shift. But it doesn't change the Army List entry, which is my point.

But the entire argument thus far against TROOPS in formations that are clearly TROOPS and would score as TROOPS because nothing is changing them away from being TROOPS - is that "It looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, smells like a duck, but its actually an anteater."

Except, of course, that they're a Formation with no FOC so ...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Sure. Now - show me on the FOC where a Formation Detachment has Troops slots. I'll wait.

Why wait? Detachments are within the FOC. Troops are within the detachment (see that screen grab earlier).

No, the screengrab does not demonstrate that the Formation Detachment has Troop slots.
Which is what I asked for. So please - answer my question.

No, the screengrab does not demonstrate that the Formation Detachment has Troop slots.
Which is what I asked for. So please - answer my question.

The battlefield role is quoted as being listed within the dataslate. The unit entry within the dataslate defines the genestealers etc as Troops. Unless you're arguing that the word "Troops" is a decorative graphic device, it satisfies all the criteria of the BRB.

Alright here's another example for you. The Eight from the Farsight Enclaves. You can take them. Each is an HQ choice in their own right. Taking them as Farsight's bodyguard doesn't take their HQ status away, just exempts them from the normal limitations of having only 2 in the regular FOC. So we have *gasp* units that are outside the precious all-holy FOC, but are still what they are!

Now if there was only some way to check and see if a formation was inside the FOC. Oh 'a formation is a special form of detachment.' Detachments are part of the FOC and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how its special when it doesn't have - or need - to have an HQ leading the special detachment.

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

No, the screengrab does not demonstrate that the Formation Detachment has Troop slots.
Which is what I asked for. So please - answer my question.

The battlefield role is quoted as being listed within the dataslate. The unit entry within the dataslate defines the genestealers etc as Troops. Unless you're arguing that the word "Troops" is a decorative graphic device, it satisfies all the criteria of the BRB.

So you're arguing that the Army List is definitive? Because that's what the screengrab shows.

Hivefleet Oblivion, is a Tervigon an HQ or Troops?

How do you know?

 DragonOfAsh wrote:
Alright here's another example for you. The Eight from the Farsight Enclaves. You can take them. Each is an HQ choice in their own right. Taking them as Farsight's bodyguard doesn't take their HQ status away, just exempts them from the normal limitations of having only 2 in the regular FOC. So we have *gasp* units that are outside the precious all-holy FOC, but are still what they are!

And that has no relevance to scoring troops whatsoever. And they don't exist outside the FOC - they just don't count against the limit.

Now if there was only some way to check and see if a formation was inside the FOC. Oh 'a formation is a special form of detachment.' Detachments are part of the FOC and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how its special when it doesn't have - or need - to have an HQ leading the special detachment.

Detachments are part of the FOC.
Formation Detachments do not have a Troops selection.

Isn't the reason why formation detatchments have no predefined requirments/slots is because they are fluid and instead have to rely on the instructions within the dataslate.