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Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
if they were head to head

Who cares? Head to head fights are usually a poor way to balance units. The more interesting question is how they perform when fighting against common target types. And there we find that the khorne abomination and the knight have fairly comparable offense, while the abomination has better defense but nothing spectacular. But if you compare the two knights you can get for 888 points to the single abomination you'd almost always rather have the knights in your army. So the abomination is clearly overpriced, and probably by hundreds of points.

 Peregrine wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
if they were head to head

Who cares? Head to head fights are usually a poor way to balance units. The more interesting question is how they perform when fighting against common target types. And there we find that the khorne abomination and the knight have fairly comparable offense, while the abomination has better defense but nothing spectacular. But if you compare the two knights you can get for 888 points to the single abomination you'd almost always rather have the knights in your army. So the abomination is clearly overpriced, and probably by hundreds of points.

I agree. Also, the LoS was subject to a lot of criticism when it was released because of how overpriced it was. It would be more appropriate to compare a Knight to another SH walker, like a Warhound. Why the LoS wasn't made as a walker, I'll never know.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
To show what has changed so far, I am going to post where the point totals are for the units that still exist from the apocalypse supplement if using the vdr.

Imperial guard
Baneblade: 485 points
Banehammer: 348
Banesword:420
Doom hammer: 395
Hell hammer: 530
Shadowsword: 365
Stormlord: 470
Stormsword: 475

I like these costs. Only objection is to the Lord Of Skulls, who is waaaay more expensive than it needs to be - it is significantly less capable than a pair of IK, yet it costs more.

 Selym wrote:

I like these costs. Only objection is to the Lord Of Skulls, who is waaaay more expensive than it needs to be - it is significantly less capable than a pair of IK, yet it costs more.

Honestly, if I were that deadset on playing Chaos, I would simply use the LoS/Kytan as a chaos Knight. There's nothing the Kytan/LoS can do that the Knight can't do.

 McNinja wrote:

 Selym wrote:

I like these costs. Only objection is to the Lord Of Skulls, who is waaaay more expensive than it needs to be - it is significantly less capable than a pair of IK, yet it costs more.

Honestly, if I were that deadset on playing Chaos, I would simply use the LoS/Kytan as a chaos Knight. There's nothing the Kytan/LoS can do that the Knight can't do.

What book are the kayoss IK in?

 Selym wrote:

 McNinja wrote:

 Selym wrote:

I like these costs. Only objection is to the Lord Of Skulls, who is waaaay more expensive than it needs to be - it is significantly less capable than a pair of IK, yet it costs more.

Honestly, if I were that deadset on playing Chaos, I would simply use the LoS/Kytan as a chaos Knight. There's nothing the Kytan/LoS can do that the Knight can't do.

What book are the kayoss IK in?

I think Imperial Armour 13.

Two knight paladins 750 points
Fighting a lord of skulls on a 6x4 table

If they run, then the lord of skulls will cause 1 hullpoint of damage on average every turn. The two knights will do (if all blasts hit) maybe 2, if rounding up but every turn after the first the LoS will regenerate at least one hullpoint. Neither side will kill the other in six turns.

Now, look at the worst case scenario for the LoS.

Two paladins simultaneously charge it.

Two hammer of wrath, one glance or pen, maybe one hullpoint down.
Then the paladins attack, 8 attacks, 4 hits, 1 saved, meaning average hullpoints lost before the LoS gets to attack is ~7 even if they score an explodes result, it has a decent chance of survival.

Now the lord of skulls gets to swing, with it's 11 attacks, 5 on one, six on the other. That makes one dead knight and the other one may survive with two hullpoints left, if it doesn't die due to an explodes result. Even in this worst case scenario the LoS has a very decent chance of not only surviving the confrontation, but actually killing both attackers. Obviously rolling a six to start with the knights may swing things the other way (even with my houserule) but there is an equal chance of them doing nothing by rolling a one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, the LoS is a walker. It honestly should be able to leave combat like a normal tracked vehicle.

Hmmmm, not a bad idea actually...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Point totals for tyranid mc's with the vdr
Monstrous bio-cannons
Twin linked death spitter: 5 points
Twin linked devourer with brain leech worms: 25
Stranglethorn cannon: 10
Heavy venom cannon: 15

Hive tyrant: 185
Swarm lord: same price but all units in range benefit from swarm leader
Old one eye: 140
Tervigon: 155
Haruspex: 120
Harpy: 150
Hive crone: 155
Carnifex: 85
Trygon: 170
Trygons prime: 205
Mawlock: 140
Exocrene: 105
Tyrannofex: 105 rupture cannon upgrade is 5 point upgrade.

It is crazy to actually see how disadvantaged most tyranid monsters are compared to things like talos, riptides, and wraithlords.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Two knight paladins 750 points
Fighting a lord of skulls on a 6x4 table

If they run, then the lord of skulls will cause 1 hullpoint of damage on average every turn. The two knights will do (if all blasts hit) maybe 2, if rounding up but every turn after the first the LoS will regenerate at least one hullpoint. Neither side will kill the other in six turns.

IWND is rolling once per vehicle on a 5+, not once per hullpoint.

Now, look at the worst case scenario for the LoS.

Isn't the worst case scenario the one where the LoS gets 12 BS5 melta shots to its back arc? Thats only 400pts worth of Crisis suits and pathfinders

Head-to-head comparisons are pretty silly. Yes, the LoS does well at taking out enemy superheavies in combat - thats what D-Weapons do well. You can NEVER say something is balanced due to a single head-to-head comparison because in this game of rock-scissors-paper there is always something that can take it out for less points.

But going with the Head-to-head comparison... 2 knights will (on average) kill the LoS before it swings:


8 attacks, 4 hits. 1/6 chance to do nothing. 4/6 chance to do (5/6 chance to do D3 HP, 1/6 chance to do D3+D3 HP) with 4/6 chance to get past the save, 1/6 chance to do 6+D6 HP with no save = 10.5 HP on average dice.

= 10.5 HP on average dice. Plus 0.9 HP from HoW, plus 1.5HP per turn from shooting. 13 HP (on average) on the turn they charge.

You're right on the hullpoint, and I said that if they rolled a six it would be over for the lord of skulls. That said, if they don't the lord of skulls has a decent chance of killing both of the imperial knights.

Those same melta crisis suits also drop 2/3 of the hullpoints off of a revenant titan on average rolls ( 10/12 hit, then half for holofields making 5 hits, those will pen rear armor on a 3+, I'm guessing melta range, so more than likely 5 pens that makes between 5 and 8 hullpoints) and the revenant in my vdr is 62 points more expensive. Not to mention that the Lord of skulls could wipe out the crisis suit in question with a single volley of the flamestorm template, or even just thunderblitz them, then cannon something else while preparing to charge another unit. The lord of skulls I presented above has mitigated the primary weakness of the normal version, and should pay the points for the damage it can do.

When comparing units, you compare like to like. So when you compare a mixed roll superheavy walker to something, it ahould be Nother mixed roll superheavy walker. Any other comparison doesn't work.

Just because grav exists doesn't mean the wraithknight is appropriately costed. Same with melta and superheavy vehicles. 400 points of dedicated antitank darn well better be able to drop most vehicles in the game. Otherwise what was the point in bringing them? Your hope is the opponent hasn't loaded up with so much of your counter to negate the validity of your list. 12 melta shots at the rear arc of the lord of skulls means the opponent dropped a unit of 6 suits behind the fastest melee unit in a melee centric army. Those crisis suits are dead guaranteed next turn, whether or not they killed the lord of skulls. What if there were maulerfiend, or hell brutes back there? Or a horde of blood letters to create a screen? Getting behind something like that is REALLY a lot harder than it seems.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, I was going over the lord of skulls again. You are right there are wasted points here, probably about 30-40 (which is a lot with the vdr. I will break down the unit tomorrow morning, but I think a really cool short range gaze attack, and maybe a bonus to initiative will bring his big treaded backside in line with his points. (I don't want to lower the points, because fluff, and I don't want to add anything that would invalidate the model. Hence eye lasers!)

See you tomorrow!

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
You're right on the hullpoint, and I said that if they rolled a six it would be over for the lord of skulls. That said, if they don't the lord of skulls has a decent chance of killing both of the imperial knights.

Those same melta crisis suits also drop 2/3 of the hullpoints off of a revenant titan on average rolls ( 10/12 hit, then half for holofields making 5 hits, those will pen rear armor on a 3+, I'm guessing melta range, so more than likely 5 pens that makes between 5 and 8 hullpoints) and the revenant in my vdr is 62 points more expensive. Not to mention that the Lord of skulls could wipe out the crisis suit in question with a single volley of the flamestorm template, or even just thunderblitz them, then cannon something else while preparing to charge another unit. The lord of skulls I presented above has mitigated the primary weakness of the normal version, and should pay the points for the damage it can do.

When comparing units, you compare like to like. So when you compare a mixed roll superheavy walker to something, it ahould be Nother mixed roll superheavy walker. Any other comparison doesn't work.

Just because grav exists doesn't mean the wraithknight is appropriately costed. Same with melta and superheavy vehicles. 400 points of dedicated antitank darn well better be able to drop most vehicles in the game. Otherwise what was the point in bringing them? Your hope is the opponent hasn't loaded up with so much of your counter to negate the validity of your list. 12 melta shots at the rear arc of the lord of skulls means the opponent dropped a unit of 6 suits behind the fastest melee unit in a melee centric army. Those crisis suits are dead guaranteed next turn, whether or not they killed the lord of skulls. What if there were maulerfiend, or hell brutes back there? Or a horde of blood letters to create a screen? Getting behind something like that is REALLY a lot harder than it seems.

The Point
-------
Your head.



To make a valid comparison, you compare how two units performing the same typical role fare at performing that role. You don't pit the two directly against each other, especially if that's not the way they would typically play.

Also it seems rather silly and contrived to ignore 1/6 of the Knight's damage output to make your point. Though even doing 3+D3 HP on a 6 they still kill the LoS on average.

Ok, I really need to stop thinking some responders are using hyperbole when they tell me how off some things are. I'll work on that...

Khorne lord of skulls
Hullpoints: 190
Av: 70
Fleet: 5
Rage: 5
It will not die: 30
Daemon (5+ invul save): 57
Daemon forge: 10
4 sD ap1 A @ws4: 144
Fuelled by rage: 50
Gorestorm cannon: 30
Hades gattling cannon: 140
Total 731

157 points is HUGE! so first off the top, lets add
+1 init: 8 points
Add three more hullpoints: 75 ( plus the additional points for the invul save, another 23)
Add warp gaze (x2): 40
That (should) put him at 877, now add the ability to charge anything nearby and he is a fluffy, capable monster with the addition of...

A 24" strength 10 ap1 heavy two gaze attack
12 hullpoints
And init4

Decent survivability, massive damage potential, fluffy, and doesn't invalidate anything model wise. Better?

Infinitely. I also think it needs a WS increase as well, bit not necessarily.

The only thing it hits on a 5+ is ws9-10, and most things hit the big galoot on a 4+ as well. I can't imagine this thing being very finness oriented in regards to melee...

Lol very true. I was thinking more in terms of it hitting things, didn't really think about things hitting it.

I find it funny though the a giant superheavy with an axe the size of a bus has the same probability to hit a space marine as it does an imperial knight.

Sideways sweeps at ground level most likely. Half of the marines duck in time

The IK just ninjaflip out the way half the time too

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Two knight paladins 750 points
Fighting a lord of skulls on a 6x4 table

Again, this is an irrelevant comparison that has very little to do with balancing the two units.

 Peregrine wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Two knight paladins 750 points
Fighting a lord of skulls on a 6x4 table

Again, this is an irrelevant comparison that has very little to do with balancing the two units.

Did you read the last several posts?

No, he just wanted to give me a bit of the business. I expected it, it seems to be their primary means of communication

If by "their", you're referring to the several page of arguments, I'm part of that, too.

What does everyone think of the tyranid revamp for their monstrous creatures? As I said before, I decided to do the balancing of monsters based on the "robot" type monsters so that the nids and daemons wouldn't be outclassed by everything else out there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Selym wrote:
If by "their", you're referring to the several page of arguments, I'm part of that, too.

No, just peregrine. You will give me grief, but you don't seem to keep at it when I decide to actually take your advice. :/

 Selym wrote:
Did you read the last several posts?

I read them, and nothing in those posts makes my criticism any less valid.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Selym wrote:
Did you read the last several posts?

I read them, and nothing in those posts makes my criticism any less valid.

Don't be obtuse, if you read the last several posts as you say you did you would see that I rectified the situation and realized my mistake.

As I said, you seem to have a desire to give people grief even if they no longer hold to whatever it is you are disagreeing with. Can we not let an argument go even when you weren't personally involved and it has already been rectified?

Finished up the statistical update today, including the new tau weapon systems. I didn't get the format changes done that I wanted, and I'm still working on the points for things like the ghostkeel's once per game "snapshot" protection but otherwise the system has all of the current rules in it.

Just giving a heads up

First post updated. What do you guys think?

(Be gentle )

Ok, got a few tweeks in mind (mostly cleanup and a couple minor adjustments, and putting in a point cost that somehow didn't show up...)

What do you guys have for me?

I'm a little confused about the VDR not allowing for the creation of a Leman Russ (of any variant, due to it being a medium tank which doesn't allow for AV 14), nor Tau Piranhas (Due to Tau vehicles not able to be Fast if they have an AV above 10).

I'm curious what your thought process for that is.

 Champion of Night wrote:
I'm a little confused about the VDR not allowing for the creation of a Leman Russ (of any variant, due to it being a medium tank which doesn't allow for AV 14), nor Tau Piranhas (Due to Tau vehicles not able to be Fast if they have an AV above 10).

I'm curious what your thought process for that is.

I always understood the Russ to be a heavy / main battle tank, and tanks based off the predator frame medium tanks.

But the Leman Russ only has 3 HP, so by his classification it's still a medium tank.

 Champion of Night wrote:
But the Leman Russ only has 3 HP, so by his classification it's still a medium tank.

Ah right, I get you.