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Ouze wrote: More to the point, it was not a switchblade. Although the police dispute this, what I said was that the State's Attorney said it was a lawful knife, and that is accurate. It was a spring assisted knife which pops once you flick it partially open which is not legally a switchblade. Switchblades are automatic knives which operate via a button or switch.
Frazzled wrote: . Fail to secure: Now thats a situation. Mischarged perhaps.
Anyway, 2 of the charges the driver skated on were misconduct in office and reckless endangerment (added by the grand jury) which again seems pretty incredible.
We always like to think that putting cameras on cops will alleviate misconduct, but what's the point? The cops that killed a guy with an illegal choke hold, on video, all skated, and in this case the basic facts - that he was not secured in the van, was not given medical attention, and was treated so roughly his neck broke and he died - aren't in dispute. So the real problem seems like our reluctance to convict police officers who perform criminal acts.
According to a recent Supreme Court ruling, cops have no requirement to know the law before either pulling you over, questioning you, or charging you. If they thought the blade was illegal, even if it wasn't, that's good enough. (Heien V North Carolina)
If you are referring to Eric Garner, no choke hold was used. The maneuver used is an approved take-down move that is taught to police, and has been shown in several other videos. Or at least that's how it started. If you watch, the officer places the back of his hand under Garner's chin, which does not give the leverage needed for a "choke". Did it turn into more as the struggle continued, who knows.
The initial medial examiner did list the "choke hold" as a partial cause of the death. However, this was disputed by other experts. Not even the initial examiner could find ANY injury to Garner from such an action. The combination of extreme obesity, age, heart disease, lung disease, being forced to lay on concrete with handcuffs, and having three grown men kneel on his back was most likely the cause, and a jury agreed.
cuda1179 wrote: [If you are referring to Eric Garner, no choke hold was used. (snip). Did it turn into more as the struggle continued, who knows.
The initial medial examiner did list the "choke hold" as a partial cause of the death. However, this was disputed by other experts. Not even the initial examiner could find ANY injury to Garner from such an action. The combination of extreme obesity, age, heart disease, lung disease, being forced to lay on concrete with handcuffs, and having three grown men kneel on his back was most likely the cause, and a jury agreed.
You're really having it both ways with the first part there, imo. There wasn't a choke hold, except maybe it turned into one, who knows? Come on.
Same with the latter element. It wasn't a choke hold, except where the medical examiner listed it as a cause of death and classified it as a homicide. Yes, I know the police union said it wasn't a choke hold, but I'm going to have to go with the ME on this one. So far as the age, obesity, etc, looking at the additional aggravating factors to discount the primary one seems a bit like like spackling over inconvenient facts,
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/24 05:44:51
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
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cuda1179 wrote: [If you are referring to Eric Garner, no choke hold was used. (snip). Did it turn into more as the struggle continued, who knows.
The initial medial examiner did list the "choke hold" as a partial cause of the death. However, this was disputed by other experts. Not even the initial examiner could find ANY injury to Garner from such an action. The combination of extreme obesity, age, heart disease, lung disease, being forced to lay on concrete with handcuffs, and having three grown men kneel on his back was most likely the cause, and a jury agreed.
You're really having it both ways with the first part there, imo. There wasn't a choke hold, except maybe it turned into one, who knows? Come on.
Same with the latter element. It wasn't a choke hold, except where the medical examiner listed it as a cause of death and classified it as a homicide. Yes, I know the police union said it wasn't a choke hold, but I'm going to have to go with the ME on this one. So far as the age, obesity, etc, looking at the additional aggravating factors to discount the primary one seems a bit like like spackling over inconvenient facts,
What about the part where other experts disagreed about the chokehold? How about even the ME admitted that there was NO INJURY caused by the chokehold? The ME didn't list the choke hold as the sole cause of death either. He listed it as a contributing factor, along with the health problems and weight of three officers on top of him.
You seemed totally in disbelief that there could be a not-guilty verdict. My point was that the move was, and still is, considered an acceptable take-down method. Could it have turned into a contributing factor due to the circumstances? Perhaps, but the intent of the officer was to use an authorized move. The situation could have made that authorized move dangerous, but that would be an accidental death, not what the officer was charged with, thus a not guilty verdict.
Don't get me wrong here, Eric Garner's death was a tragedy and was pretty pointless. More training of officers is needed. However, I don't believe it met the requirements for criminal conviction.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/24 07:21:58
cuda1179 wrote: [What about the part where other experts disagreed about the chokehold? How about even the ME admitted that there was NO INJURY caused by the chokehold?
An autopsy was performed the next day. “On external examination of the neck, there are no visible injuries,” according to the final report. On the inside, however, were telltale signs of choking: strap muscle hemorrhages in his neck and petechial hemorrhages in his eyes. No drugs or alcohol were in his system.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/24 08:10:30
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
cuda1179 wrote: [What about the part where other experts disagreed about the chokehold? How about even the ME admitted that there was NO INJURY caused by the chokehold?
An autopsy was performed the next day. “On external examination of the neck, there are no visible injuries,” according to the final report. On the inside, however, were telltale signs of choking: strap muscle hemorrhages in his neck and petechial hemorrhages in his eyes. No drugs or alcohol were in his system.
Huh, I didn't know about the strap hemorrhages. The petechial hemorrhages I knew about, but could have also been cause by the compression suffocation with three men's weight on him. I'll concede that point.
I do think that the officer was charged a little over zealously and a lower, more proper, charge would have stuck.
On this, we can agree. In the Eric Garner case we don't ultimately know what charges were available to the grand jury, which segues back nicely to the Freddie Grey case in which I will remain surprised that not even misconduct in office or reckless endangerment stuck. The switchblade vs spring assist knife seems an open question so I'm not as rustled about the false imprisonment charges, but when you're the driver, you don't strap in your suspect, and he dies to a broken neck due to your actions, reckless endangerment seems like a slam dunk to me.
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
JSF wrote:... this is really quite an audacious move by GW, throwing out any pretext that this is a game and that its customers exist to do anything other than buy their overpriced products for the sake of it. The naked arrogance, greed and contempt for their audience is shocking.
Ouze wrote: I thought I was as disappointed in our legal system as I could be but look, here we are.
I guess the police can scoop a guy up, functionally bludgeon him to death, and no crime was committed. Terrific.
If only there was enough evidence (or more accurately ANY evidence) to support the charge the cops 'functionally bludgeon him to death' the prosecution may have had a chance. Sometimes (the OJ and Casey Anthony trials also come to mind) the prosecution can't make a case. In this specific example, they never had a case, they over charged with no evidence, hoping they could get one cop to plea and out the others. But, they didn't have enough evidence to elicit a plea in any of them.
Said differently, perhaps if the prosecutor charged based on actual evidence rather than politics there would be a different ending.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/27 17:44:20
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
CptJake wrote: If only there was enough evidence (or more accurately ANY evidence) to support the charge the cops 'functionally bludgeon him to death'
The cops put him in a car. He was in their custody and they were responsible for him. This is not in dispute.
The cops did not secure him. This is not in dispute.
When he came out of the car, his neck was broken from a high energy impact. This is not in dispute.
His death was ruled a homicide. This is not in dispute.
However, when you add all of that up, no one is responsible, there is "no evidence" that a crime was committed, the cops are the good guys, and the prosecutor is the villain.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/27 18:34:35
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
CptJake wrote: If only there was enough evidence (or more accurately ANY evidence) to support the charge the cops 'functionally bludgeon him to death'
The cops put him in a car. He was in their custody and they were responsible for him. This is not in dispute.
The cops did not secure him. This is not in dispute.
When he came out of the car, his neck was broken from a high energy impact. This is not in dispute.
His death was ruled a homicide. This is not in dispute.
However, when you add all of that up, no one is responsible, there is "no evidence" that a crime was committed, the cops are the good guys, and the prosecutor is the villain.
The full might of the Baltimore District Attorney's office, with backing from outside agencies where unable to prove a "crime" was committed. What have you got that they were missing out on?
I'm curious to see how the lawsuit against the Prosecutor turns out.
CptJake wrote: If only there was enough evidence (or more accurately ANY evidence) to support the charge the cops 'functionally bludgeon him to death'
The cops put him in a car. He was in their custody and they were responsible for him. This is not in dispute.
The cops did not secure him. This is not in dispute.
When he came out of the car, his neck was broken from a high energy impact. This is not in dispute.
His death was ruled a homicide. This is not in dispute.
However, when you add all of that up, no one is responsible, there is "no evidence" that a crime was committed, the cops are the good guys, and the prosecutor is the villain.
I don't think I ever called the cops good guys, though you can quote the post I did so in if I have forgotten. Prosecutor as villain? How about as politically motivated over reaching incompetent? Even you would have to agree with incompetent since you are positive there was enough evidence to convict and yet she failed, right? And the case for over reaching seems pretty solid when you look at what she charged each of the 5 cops with and the results she got. I guess you can disagree with politically motivated. What do you think her motivation was?
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
CptJake wrote: If only there was enough evidence (or more accurately ANY evidence) to support the charge the cops 'functionally bludgeon him to death'
The cops put him in a car. He was in their custody and they were responsible for him. This is not in dispute.
The cops did not secure him. This is not in dispute.
When he came out of the car, his neck was broken from a high energy impact. This is not in dispute.
His death was ruled a homicide. This is not in dispute.
However, when you add all of that up, no one is responsible, there is "no evidence" that a crime was committed, the cops are the good guys, and the prosecutor is the villain.
The 'issue' was the multiple undocumented stops, and witness evidence of how rough and intentional the ride was, if someone intentionally ordered and executed a 'rough ride' and what the responses to the dead man's actions and words during the ride. Things which all would have been captured with Bodycams and vancams.
All of that was basically covered up and destroyed by the Blue Wall of Silence... so without evidence, it was 6 lying cops vs a deadman and they couldn't make much of a case out of it. They watched too much Law and Order and tried to play the 'first one to roll on the others gets a walk' and charged them all super high and no one rolled.
All this shows me is all police interactions with the general public should be recorded at all points of the process. Apparently after the arrest you are not safe as they can kill you in the van, in transport and in the jail and totally falsify/cover-up what happened and get away with it. If it was a malicious act, it would have been recorded, if it was a freak accident, it also would have been recorded.
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CptJake wrote: If only there was enough evidence (or more accurately ANY evidence) to support the charge the cops 'functionally bludgeon him to death'
The cops put him in a car. He was in their custody and they were responsible for him. This is not in dispute.
The cops did not secure him. This is not in dispute.
When he came out of the car, his neck was broken from a high energy impact. This is not in dispute.
His death was ruled a homicide. This is not in dispute.
However, when you add all of that up, no one is responsible, there is "no evidence" that a crime was committed, the cops are the good guys, and the prosecutor is the villain.
The full might of the Baltimore District Attorney's office, with backing from outside agencies where unable to prove a "crime" was committed. What have you got that they were missing out on?
I'm curious to see how the lawsuit against the Prosecutor turns out.
I think the lawsuit filed by the cops against the prosecutor will result in the city paying out another settlement. They've already paid the Gray family a $6.4 million settlement and I'm sure the settlement with the cops' lawsuit will also be in the millions. I have a modicum of hope that there will be a silver lining to this tragedy in that Baltimore will start to require police to use body cameras, van cameras, etc. if for not other reason than because their insurance company will demand it be done if the city doesn't want to have to pay insane premiums.
Not sure if it would be different in Baltimore but here locally in the aftermath of the Duke lacrosse fiasco the prosecutor was successfully sued because he lost his absolute immunity by making false statements in press conferences and other instances of legal malfeasance that led to his disbarment. It doesn't seem like Mosby is in danger of being disbarred but if the Baltimore cops can show that Mosby knowingly lied to the press and filed charges that couldn't be supported by the evidence (or lack thereof) she might not be able to claim absolute immunity.
Depends on her Federal Appellate Circuit. The 7th recently held prosecutors could be liable if they swore to their charges. Since that ruling my office makes cops come in and sign that line. I've seen a lot of other offices that still take that risk. I can't remember the case off the top of my head. The prosecutor in it got sued after dismissing the charges. Mosby tried some of her cases, so the damages would be higher. Or she could try to pawn it off on her assistants if they actually did the charges.
Not sure if it would be different in Baltimore but here locally in the aftermath of the Duke lacrosse fiasco the prosecutor was successfully sued because he lost his absolute immunity by making false statements in press conferences and other instances of legal malfeasance that led to his disbarment. It doesn't seem like Mosby is in danger of being disbarred but if the Baltimore cops can show that Mosby knowingly lied to the press and filed charges that couldn't be supported by the evidence (or lack thereof) she might not be able to claim absolute immunity.
Weren't there allegations of the Prosecutors witholding evidence? There is also the accusations of the Prosecutor making (allegedly) false statements, such as her saying the knife he possessed was legal, when it (allegedly) wasn't.
I'm not fully spun up on this, but I've been hearing more rumbles about how the prosecutors have done more wrong, then right.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/29 12:14:06
Mosby rushed to the microphones and cameras and made promises before the evidence was ever in. It looks like they tried to alter reports made by investigators and get the lead investigator to change his testimony. There are similar allegations regarding the medical examiner. Heck, it was one of the investigators who contacted the defense attorney to let them know that the DA hadn't turned over exculpatory reports, a clear Brady violation.
Not only should these officers sue her, but the state bar should be reviewing her conduct for sanctions or disbarment. Ironically, if a normal citizen's case would have been handled like this, the outrage would be deafening.
jmurph wrote: Mosby rushed to the microphones and cameras and made promises before the evidence was ever in. It looks like they tried to alter reports made by investigators and get the lead investigator to change his testimony. There are similar allegations regarding the medical examiner. Heck, it was one of the investigators who contacted the defense attorney to let them know that the DA hadn't turned over exculpatory reports, a clear Brady violation.
Not only should these officers sue her, but the state bar should be reviewing her conduct for sanctions or disbarment. Ironically, if a normal citizen's case would have been handled like this, the outrage would be deafening.
The issue also is the police assigned 'eye witness' officers to the investigation team to make it impossible for them to testify. And they were leaking information to the defense before it was due to them. There is plenty of lies and bs to go around on the side of the police too. Easy to claim lack of evidence when you are seeing the Prosecutors hands, and are running the investigation and destroying the evidence as fast as they discover it.
Our Deputy State's attorney said there was falsified testimony from a specific detective who then 'became' a witness for the defense, the police refused to execute search warrants for officer's cell phones, Some intentionally screwed up immunity deals that made witness statements invalid by the investigation team. The police's hands were dirty in all of this too.
The major mistake was failure to hand all of this off to the feds for independent investigation and the States attorney for prosecution. One of the officer's lawyer even said his client was ready to give a statement to the states attorney and roll on the others for immunity but Mosby refused and charged them before even discussing it and cutting the states attorney out. If she would have just handed it off, at least one of those officers would be sitting in a cell for the next 10 years no question.
A Crime was committed, she just thought she would easily prove it. But it isn't about what really happened, it is what you can prove and she failed to understand how the Blue wall of silence works.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/29 13:32:49
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jmurph wrote: Mosby rushed to the microphones and cameras and made promises before the evidence was ever in. It looks like they tried to alter reports made by investigators and get the lead investigator to change his testimony. There are similar allegations regarding the medical examiner. Heck, it was one of the investigators who contacted the defense attorney to let them know that the DA hadn't turned over exculpatory reports, a clear Brady violation.
Not only should these officers sue her, but the state bar should be reviewing her conduct for sanctions or disbarment. Ironically, if a normal citizen's case would have been handled like this, the outrage would be deafening.
The issue also is the police assigned 'eye witness' officers to the investigation team to make it impossible for them to testify. And they were leaking information to the defense before it was due to them. There is plenty of lies and bs to go around on the side of the police too. Easy to claim lack of evidence when you are seeing the Prosecutors hands, and are running the investigation and destroying the evidence as fast as they discover it.
The major mistake was failure to hand all of this off to the feds for independent investigation and the States attorney for prosecution. One of the officer's lawyer even said his client was ready to give a statement to the states attorney and roll on the others for immunity but Mosby refused and charged them before even discussing it and cutting the states attorney out. If she would have just handed it off, at least one of those officers would be sitting in a cell for the next 10 years no question.
A Crime was committed, she just thought she would easily prove it. But it isn't about what really happened, it is what you can prove and she failed to understand how the Blue wall of silence works.
You have a decent source for any of that? Seems to contradict the Judge's take.
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
The police investigative team and Dawnyell Taylor are hardly clean in all of this. Refusing to execute warrants to let them expire, putting witnesses on the investigation team to prevent testifying, being leading the investigation, then manufacturing evidence and testifying for the defense. Witnesses which 'suddenly forget' to regurgitate what he was told to say by police.
It all needed to be done by the Feds at an independent level. The investigation is as corrupt as the prosecutor was incompetent.
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That story does not seem to back up your statements.
You stated: "the issue also is the police assigned 'eye witness' officers to the investigation team to make it impossible for them to testify. And they were leaking information to the defense before it was due to them"
I'm not seeing that in your link. Maybe I'm missing it.
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
jmurph wrote: Mosby rushed to the microphones and cameras and made promises before the evidence was ever in. It looks like they tried to alter reports made by investigators and get the lead investigator to change his testimony. There are similar allegations regarding the medical examiner. Heck, it was one of the investigators who contacted the defense attorney to let them know that the DA hadn't turned over exculpatory reports, a clear Brady violation.
Not only should these officers sue her, but the state bar should be reviewing her conduct for sanctions or disbarment. Ironically, if a normal citizen's case would have been handled like this, the outrage would be deafening.
The issue also is the police assigned 'eye witness' officers to the investigation team to make it impossible for them to testify. And they were leaking information to the defense before it was due to them. There is plenty of lies and bs to go around on the side of the police too. Easy to claim lack of evidence when you are seeing the Prosecutors hands, and are running the investigation and destroying the evidence as fast as they discover it.
Our Deputy State's attorney said there was falsified testimony from a specific detective who then 'became' a witness for the defense, the police refused to execute search warrants for officer's cell phones, Some intentionally screwed up immunity deals that made witness statements invalid by the investigation team. The police's hands were dirty in all of this too.
The major mistake was failure to hand all of this off to the feds for independent investigation and the States attorney for prosecution. One of the officer's lawyer even said his client was ready to give a statement to the states attorney and roll on the others for immunity but Mosby refused and charged them before even discussing it and cutting the states attorney out. If she would have just handed it off, at least one of those officers would be sitting in a cell for the next 10 years no question.
A Crime was committed, she just thought she would easily prove it. But it isn't about what really happened, it is what you can prove and she failed to understand how the Blue wall of silence works.
If an officer falsified testimony, that would be perjury, yet nothing indicates that any witness has faced such allegations. Likewise evidence tampering is a felony, and such evidence can still be presented if it is shown that the Defendant has made it unavailable (see forfeiture by wrongdoing). Again, none of that is indicated in the trial records. Indeed, the judge has indicated that the State had failed to provide sufficient evidence that any crime occurred.
You can say a crime occurred, but we have a very specific legal system that defines what that actually means. The feds could have gotten involved if they wanted- nothing precluded their investigation. As to leaking evidence before due, criminal defendants are entitled to any exculpatory evidence. Prosecutors can't hide it; this is an old rule from Brady v. Maryland that every prosecutor is (or should be) aware of. The judge determined that the prosecution withheld evidence improperly, specifically material witness statements. That is a big deal.
Again, if this was a normal citizen being prosecuted for murder and the prosecution had withheld evidence on an already thin case after making a public statement to prosecute before the evidence was in, would that be okay? Justice should be based on evidence, not politics.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/29 14:39:41
CptJake wrote: If only there was enough evidence (or more accurately ANY evidence) to support the charge the cops 'functionally bludgeon him to death'
The cops put him in a car. He was in their custody and they were responsible for him. This is not in dispute.
The cops did not secure him. This is not in dispute.
When he came out of the car, his neck was broken from a high energy impact. This is not in dispute.
His death was ruled a homicide. This is not in dispute.
However, when you add all of that up, no one is responsible, there is "no evidence" that a crime was committed, the cops are the good guys, and the prosecutor is the villain.
Have you simply considered the possibility that the police killing people is not a crime and there is therefore nothing for anyone to be held responsible for?
Have you simply considered the possibility that the police killing people is not a crime and there is therefore nothing for anyone to be held responsible for?
Have you simply considered the possibility that in this case the prosecutor failed due to lack of evidence, over charging and political motivations?
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
in which I will remain surprised that not even misconduct in office or reckless endangerment stuck. The switchblade vs spring assist knife seems an open question so I'm not as rustled about the false imprisonment charges, but when you're the driver, you don't strap in your suspect, and he dies to a broken neck due to your actions, reckless endangerment seems like a slam dunk to me.
