ICV2 Report: Games-Workshop's Half-Year Report : Update with 6 month results, discussion starts pg12

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**Shadow Captain Edithae**

They should bring back Warhammer Fantasy as a mass battle ruleset to be played parallel to Age of Sigmar, which should be treated as a skirmish game like the SBG.

They should also give a big discount on Core troops, like the January bundles they did for 40K and AOS. Core troops should be cheap, so new players can quickly build the core of their army. Its the Heroes, Elites and Monsters that should be expensive.

**AllSeeingSkink**

Kilkrazy wrote:
I don't think it's ever been much fun being a store manager and these days it is a lot harder than it was 10 years ago:

Demanding sales targets. Competition from your own company's website. Not enough news about forthcoming releases. Not many assistant staff. Out of the way locations. Etc.

I know my local observations don't apply globally, but funnily enough 10-20 years ago (before my local GW went 1 man and moved out of the main shopping centre to a quiet location down the street) they had a huge turnover of staff. If you didn't come in for a few months then there'd be a new staff member and an old one would have dropped off. There was also a policy of never talking about other games, ever, for any reason.

When they first moved to a 1 man store and out of the prominent area, it was a ghost town for a while, the new manager was awkward with customers and it seemed like the store was struggling. But he's been there for the whole time now, 3 or 4 years I guess, the store is really booming again. He's passionate about GW games but will also discuss other games (he'll always bring it back round to trying to sell you a GW game, but I can't blame him for that, it's his friggin job

). When describing features in GW games he's often used other games as examples, "Have you played X-wing/ Warmahordes/etc, it's kind of like that but like this".

If he quits/gets fired it'll be interesting to see if the store turns in to a ghost town again.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
They should bring back Warhammer Fantasy as a mass battle ruleset to be played parallel to Age of Sigmar, which should be treated as a skirmish game like the SBG

They've burned that bridge when they shifted to circular bases. It was when we first started seeing circular bases that the petrol was being poured on GW's funeral pyre, the moment they started releasing models with circular bases was when they lit the match and threw it on.

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
They should bring back Warhammer Fantasy as a mass battle ruleset to be played parallel to Age of Sigmar, which should be treated as a skirmish game like the SBG
They've burned that bridge when they shifted to circular bases. It was when we first started seeing circular bases that the petrol was being poured on GW's funeral pyre, the moment they started releasing models with circular bases was when they lit the match and threw it on.

Not true. They can reuse the movement trays from the old and defunct LOTR War of the Ring mass battle game. They still sell the movement trays AFAIK. That would let players build up an army slowly, using it for the skirmish game, then ranking their models up using movement trays once they've collected enough models.

I started wargaming with the SBG. I have never used a square base, and never will, because I prefer the look of round bases and figure I can just use movement trays if I ever want to do mass battle games, which aren't my thing anyway. Warbases have a good range of MDF trays.

**TheWaspinator**

The Age of Sigmar starter can be easily bought for 40% off on eBay. I really doubt that its selling well for full MSRP anywhere.

**AllSeeingSkink**

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
They should bring back Warhammer Fantasy as a mass battle ruleset to be played parallel to Age of Sigmar, which should be treated as a skirmish game like the SBG
They've burned that bridge when they shifted to circular bases. It was when we first started seeing circular bases that the petrol was being poured on GW's funeral pyre, the moment they started releasing models with circular bases was when they lit the match and threw it on.

Not true. They can reuse the movement trays from the old and defunct LOTR War of the Ring mass battle game. They still sell the movement trays AFAIK. That would let players build up an army slowly, using it for the skirmish game, then ranking their models up using movement trays once they've collected enough models.

I started wargaming with the SBG. I have never used a square base, and never will, because I prefer the look of round bases and figure I can just use movement trays if I ever want to do mass battle games, which aren't my thing anyway.

Maybe, I will admit I never really liked LOTR's movement trays, I guess it could be an option though.

**MWHistorian**

I have little doubt that if GW kept the battle bunker in Richmond open, I'd still be playing 40k and probably WFB as well. (well, okay, not after AOS) But the multiple staff were amazing and really spread their passion to anyone that came into the store.

**Talys**

TheWaspinator wrote:
The Age of Sigmar starter can be easily bought for 40% off on eBay. I really doubt that its selling well for full MSRP anywhere.

It's sold at full MSRP at all the GW stores

Mind you, hardly any store sells any GW stuff at full MSRP that isn't GW. The shops that I frequent always keep 1-4 of AoS Starter on the shelf (depending on the store), and I see the inventory dip down from time to time. They're not flying off the shelf (at least, I don't think they are), but then again, neither is Dark Vengeance, and Isle of Blood wasn't a super seller either.

**Yodhrin**

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
They should bring back Warhammer Fantasy as a mass battle ruleset to be played parallel to Age of Sigmar, which should be treated as a skirmish game like the SBG.

They should also give a big discount on Core troops, like the January bundles they did for 40K and AOS. Core troops should be cheap, so new players can quickly build the core of their army. Its the Heroes, Elites and Monsters that should be expensive.

The problem is they can't, not if their motivations for AoS are what they appear to be.

They want a game with an entirely trademarkable background, entirely copyrightable aesthetic, low shelf impact, and high per-box margins. That means they can't "bring back" Fantasy in terms of the background, nor can they stop phasing out the elements of the WHFB model line that have obvious historical or public-domain fictional aspects to their design, nor even can they stop their focus on "bigger-but-less-for-more-money" model design, because all of those things are integral to what AoS "is" from a retail sales perspective.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you entirely, and frankly I'm baffled as to why they didn't try the current strategy of heavily discounted starter and digital content bundles before they willfully vandalised the brand their company was built on, but they've chosen their course and unless AoS has been an utter, total, unmitigated disaster(as opposed to the basic disappointment, from their perspective, the anecdotal evidence would suggest) I wouldn't expect to see GW producing a WHFB reboot(or even a similar style of game) for at least 5 years, more likely 10+. If we're lucky, someone at FW will persuade GW to allow them to revive Realhammer, but it will hardly be cheap to buy full armies in resin at FW prices, and I'm not even sure there's anyone at FW who gives enough of a gak about Realhammer to push for it.

**Kilkrazy**

TheAuldGrump wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:
Comparing reaction on DakkaDakka to the two games, Battle of Cattle and 30K generally seemed to get a very enthusiastic reaction from a relatively small number of users. AoS seemed to get an enthusiastic reaction from a larger number of users but this was balanced by about equal numbers of users deriding it and switching from WHFB to KoW.

So on that basis my guess is that AoS sold a lot better during the six months than BofC did during the two weeks.

As I mentioned above - this coming quarter will also see the returns of unsold AoS - for some stores this is going to be a majority of their initial orders of the game. (Two stores are each returning sixteen out of twenty boxes in my local area. A third store only stocked two, hasn't sold any, but the owner doesn't care - he plans to buy them himself if they don't sell soon, and turn them into 40K figures.)

So, the initial wholesale purchases were strong, but, again, on a local level, consumer response has been poor.

I am pretty sure that at least half of the boxes that were sold are destined for 40K armies. (Which has no bearing on the sale - a purchase is a purchase - but does not speak well for the survival of the game itself.)

One of the other details that makes the webstore preferable from GW's standpoint - sales direct to the consumer are not likely to be returned at the end of the quarter.

Which may also explain some of GW's attitude towards FLGS - they cannot be certain of the money until the allotted time for returns is past.

The Auld Grump

This is a reason why canning all the regional HQs may have been a bad thing. It reduces the contact GW has with independents, which makes it harder for indies to gauge new releases. This is of course made worse by GW's policy of no marketing information until a week before release. Indies may be led to over-order or under-order. Either mistake can be seriously bad business for GW. Without a returns policy they are liable to under order. With a returns policy they are liable to over order.

The thing about the web store is that it isn't worth anything for marketing unless people already know about the games and are searching for them on line. So it's not much use for recruitment.

**Talys**

@KK - Maybe it's different in other regions, but here, a GW rep (usually the same one) calls the independents every week to take their order, chat them up, and that kind of thing. The store I frequent passes on any feedback we have, and handles any questions/problems. Obviously, for all we know, the feedback could go in one ear and out the other, and they could just be making the motions.

For a long time, I recall he was asking my store why they thought Fantasy Battle didn't sell (for them, that is), and what they thought could be done to increase those numbers.

@AuldGrump - I don't think there's a limit to the time they have to return product, but the dollar limit is really quite small (I can't recall the exact dollar amount, but I remember it was really tiny). Printed products, on the other hand, including both codex and magazines, can all be returned AFAIK.

**Kilkrazy**

There's a great story about Lord Marks, who was one of the two original proprietors of the Marks & Spencer chain that has been in trouble for some years from falling sales.

Back in the early days Marks used to insist some of his junior executives and managers came with him on Saturday morning trips to stores. When he went into the store, he would stand still for a few minutes doing nothing.

His aides didn't know what this was for, until they realised he was listening to the ringing of the tills. If the ringing was brisk he knew things were going well. If not, he would try to investigate, talk to customers, junior staff, check the shelves, and so on.

The point of this anecdote is to illustrate that personal contact is a different thing to ringing someone up once a week.

**Silent Puffin?**

PsychoticStorm wrote:
As ":heretical" can this question sound, do they really need the stores?

Yes and no. They need them to have a wider public footprint, most people in the UK have at least heard about Games Workshop simply because of their shops. On the other hand they are a massive cost and they could easily bring in sales from other channels.

It would probably be a good idea to sink the 'one man store' idea and open/maintain flagship store in large urban areas while closing all the shops in towns or duplicate stores. I used to live in Middlesbrough and there were 6 GW's within an hours drive, I have no idea if this is still the case, they could easily had opened a large regional store in Newcastle or York and closed all the rest.

**A Town Called Malus**

Silent Puffin? wrote:
PsychoticStorm wrote:
As ":heretical" can this question sound, do they really need the stores?

Yes and no. They need them to have a wider public footprint, most people in the UK have at least heard about Games Workshop simply because of their shops. On the other hand they are a massive cost and they could easily bring in sales from other channels.

It would probably be a good idea to sink the 'one man store' idea and open/maintain flagship store in large urban areas while closing all the shops in towns or duplicate stores. I used to live in Middlesbrough and there were 6 GW's within an hours drive, I have no idea if this is still the case, they could easily had opened a large regional store in Newcastle or York and closed all the rest.

I agree. Large stores with gaming and modelling/painting space available to book and enough staff to interact with customers without having to constantly go back to the till when someone wants to buy something would be a good store.

They should also reduce the minimum spend to qualify for free shipping from their webstore.

**TheAuldGrump**

Talys wrote:
@KK - Maybe it's different in other regions, but here, a GW rep (usually the same one) calls the independents every week to take their order, chat them up, and that kind of thing. The store I frequent passes on any feedback we have, and handles any questions/problems. Obviously, for all we know, the feedback could go in one ear and out the other, and they could just be making the motions.

For a long time, I recall he was asking my store why they thought Fantasy Battle didn't sell (for them, that is), and what they thought could be done to increase those numbers.

@AuldGrump - I don't think there's a limit to the time they have to return product, but the dollar limit is really quite small (I can't recall the exact dollar amount, but I remember it was really tiny). Printed products, on the other hand, including both codex and magazines, can all be returned AFAIK.

I gather that the terms for returns of AoS were quite a bit more generous than GW's normal terms - GW wanted the game to have a strong store presence.

I think that having so many boxes might have hurt sales - that it would have been better to give an illusion that the game was in demand.

But, well, Christmas. (The really depressing thing - none of the games sold for Christmas... I think that by the time folks were thinking about Christmas presents the game had already picked up a bad reputation.)

I'll be honest - I wasn't impressed with the box contents. The humanoid Chaos folks weren't bad, most of the animalistic beasts are good - but that big galmy humanoid Khorne beast... just looked stupid.

I think that the Sigmarines turned a lot of people off. Yay... faceless armored Übermensch... again.

*EDIT* BaC on the other hand has sold very well - but the stores stocked less of it, in part because of the piles of AoS they had taking up so much space....

The Auld Grump

**Deadnight**

Not surprised at the half year results. There was that bad one a year or two ago, with sales down by a quarter et al. That one was a proper black eye. This one - more of the usual - cutting back a bit, but overall - ok. Not great, but ok.

I think Aos has probably sold a bit more than people realise, but I think it's too specialised to become the second flag bearer. 40k, and it's heresy spin off seem to be holding the ship steady.

**TheAuldGrump**

I gather that they are opening a store in my area pretty soon - which is kind of a kick in the teeth to the GW only store that is already in the area. (Hey! You're doing well! Now move over chump, it's our turn.)

I don't know if will be one of their one man wonders or not.

The Auld Grump

**Kilkrazy**

It was always GW's strategy to see places where shops were doing well and open up very nearby.

**Guildsman**

Kilkrazy wrote:
It was always GW's strategy to see places where shops were doing well and open up very nearby.

Which is illustrative of the whole problem of their store approach. They should be identifying stores that sell a lot of product and helping them to sell more. They could offer prize support for tournaments, or banners for in the store, or whatever. Anything to aid/encourage the store to sell more. As it is, they compete with their ostensible partners, while incurring the extra costs of store overhead and ill will from the store owners and, potentially, the community.

**-Loki-**

Guildsman wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:
It was always GW's strategy to see places where shops were doing well and open up very nearby.

Which is illustrative of the whole problem of their store approach. They should be identifying stores that sell a lot of product and helping them to sell more. They could offer prize support for tournaments, or banners for in the store, or whatever. Anything to aid/encourage the store to sell more. As it is, they compete with their ostensible partners, while incurring the extra costs of store overhead and ill will from the store owners and, potentially, the community.

To be fair though, this isn't anything against GW now. As KK said, it's always been their approach. I saw it first hand in the late 90's when they moved into a town with a GW scene around an FLGS.

Ironically, while the FLGS moved to another town, it was alive and kicking until very recently when the owners simply sold it to retire. The GW that moved into the town has been gone for years.

**jonolikespie**

-Loki- wrote:
Guildsman wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:
It was always GW's strategy to see places where shops were doing well and open up very nearby.

Which is illustrative of the whole problem of their store approach. They should be identifying stores that sell a lot of product and helping them to sell more. They could offer prize support for tournaments, or banners for in the store, or whatever. Anything to aid/encourage the store to sell more. As it is, they compete with their ostensible partners, while incurring the extra costs of store overhead and ill will from the store owners and, potentially, the community.

To be fair though, this isn't anything against GW now. As KK said, it's always been their approach. I saw it first hand in the late 90's when they moved into a town with a GW scene around an FLGS.

Ironically, while the FLGS moved to another town, it was alive and kicking until very recently when the owners simply sold it to retire. The GW that moved into the town has been gone for years.

That doesn't seem to be uncommon in Australia, if a GW opens a store on the same street as a FLGS it's the GW that withers and dies.

**AllSeeingSkink**

jonolikespie wrote:
-Loki- wrote:
Guildsman wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:
It was always GW's strategy to see places where shops were doing well and open up very nearby.

Which is illustrative of the whole problem of their store approach. They should be identifying stores that sell a lot of product and helping them to sell more. They could offer prize support for tournaments, or banners for in the store, or whatever. Anything to aid/encourage the store to sell more. As it is, they compete with their ostensible partners, while incurring the extra costs of store overhead and ill will from the store owners and, potentially, the community.

To be fair though, this isn't anything against GW now. As KK said, it's always been their approach. I saw it first hand in the late 90's when they moved into a town with a GW scene around an FLGS.

Ironically, while the FLGS moved to another town, it was alive and kicking until very recently when the owners simply sold it to retire. The GW that moved into the town has been gone for years.

That doesn't seem to be uncommon in Australia, if a GW opens a store on the same street as a FLGS it's the GW that withers and dies.

I'm not sure what part of Australia you live in, but most FLGS's in Melbourne's east have closed. The only one within cooee of me that sells GW products is Box Hill, then I believe that's pretty much it until you get to the city unless I'm forgetting a store. There's 3 GW stores east of Melbourne. So that's about a 1000 sq km area with about 1.5 million people that has 3 GW stores and only 1 FLGS carrying GW stock

**-Loki-**

Sydney and surrounding areas.

Right now my FLGS is generally pretty busy and I never see anyone in the GW down the street which is also in a better (but not great) location. The FLGS also doesn't have GW on the shelves anymore, or didn't when I was there last. They seem to be making their money on Magic, X-Wing, Warmachine and Infinity. Oh, and WW2 historicals. I think Flames of War is at the top.

**AllSeeingSkink**

There's a few stores that sell Magic in the east of Melbourne. Only that one store I mentioned that sells actual wargames.

I think it's a crap time to be a hobby store in general in Australia, companies have inflated the prices so much over here that many people will do anything to save a few bucks, which usually means not buying from a physical store.

It actually impresses me GW have managed to keep 3 stores open in the area. I don't know how popular 2 of them are, but the one in Ringwood seems to have really picked up recently. I think it just comes from the owner creating a good space for gaming and painting and players in turn buying from him even though they could get it cheaper online.

**jonolikespie**

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
There's a few stores that sell Magic in the east of Melbourne. Only that one store I mentioned that sells actual wargames.

I think it's a crap time to be a hobby store in general in Australia, companies have inflated the prices so much over here that many people will do anything to save a few bucks, which usually means not buying from a physical store.

It actually impresses me GW have managed to keep 3 stores open in the area. I don't know how popular 2 of them are, but the one in Ringwood seems to have really picked up recently. I think it just comes from the owner creating a good space for gaming and painting and players in turn buying from him even though they could get it cheaper online.

I'm sorry to say it but I am so glad I moved to Queensland a few years back then, Victoria sounds like it's terrible for wargaming.

I was actually in Geelong for the holidays and thought I'd check out their gaming stores since I saw they got a Good Games and a GW since I lived there. The GW was huge compared to my local, but with not a single person in there despite the busy boxing day shopping going on around it and I'm not sure if they had other tables to bring out for gaming, but despite the huge size for a one man store it still only had the 1 gaming table there I saw. The Good games turned out to be an internet cafe with board games that had bought into the GG name.

When I arrived on the Gold Coast we had a gaming club that only played a couple of different games. Now I can find games for over a half dozen systems at any one of four stores without having to go into Brisbane.

**AllSeeingSkink**

jonolikespie wrote:
I'm sorry to say it but I am so glad I moved to Queensland a few years back then, Victoria sounds like it's terrible for wargaming.

Nah, it's just terrible for wargaming shops

There are communities that play damned near anything, but I guess you have to be able to find them. I guess most people buy stuff online because I know there's communities for games that aren't even sold in the singular FLGS

There's a couple of clubs (which admittedly I haven't been a part of for the past few years since I was living in the USA) which seemed to have broader tastes and smaller groups that play other stuff as well.

Also this is specifically talking about Melbourne's east, I live in the outer east so it takes me too long to travel to the western side of Melbourne, it could be a gold mine of FLGS's over there, I've never bothered travelling an hour and half to check it out

**-Loki-**

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I think it's a crap time to be a hobby store in general in Australia, companies have inflated the prices so much over here that many people will do anything to save a few bucks, which usually means not buying from a physical store.

Strange. I've been broadening my collection quite a bit, even going into boardgames, and I have noticed that outside of GW, I barely make any saving, even before shipping, looking overseas. The prices here are about right with exchange rates. Sure people look for bargains, but that's just the nature of this hobby everywhere. Ask people overseas and the first thing they look for is discounted stores.

**AllSeeingSkink**

-Loki- wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I think it's a crap time to be a hobby store in general in Australia, companies have inflated the prices so much over here that many people will do anything to save a few bucks, which usually means not buying from a physical store.

Strange. I've been broadening my collection quite a bit, even going into boardgames, and I have noticed that outside of GW, I barely make any saving, even before shipping, looking overseas. The prices here are about right with exchange rates. Sure people look for bargains, but that's just the nature of this hobby everywhere. Ask people overseas and the first thing they look for is discounted stores.

Yeah I guess I was more thinking over the past few years before the AUD when down the toilet (sort of 2010-2014), that's when most the local stores around here closed (not saying that's the ONLY reason). It's only really 2015 that things have started to balance out, and even then a lot of stuff is still cheaper to import (most of the WW2 stuff I've been collecting is still cheaper from Firestorm than it is from TCC). I haven't been buying GW stuff lately so I'm not sure what the deal is there, but there used to be local online stores as well that offered bigger discounts than an FLGS could happily sustain.

**-Loki-**

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
-Loki- wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I think it's a crap time to be a hobby store in general in Australia, companies have inflated the prices so much over here that many people will do anything to save a few bucks, which usually means not buying from a physical store.

Strange. I've been broadening my collection quite a bit, even going into boardgames, and I have noticed that outside of GW, I barely make any saving, even before shipping, looking overseas. The prices here are about right with exchange rates. Sure people look for bargains, but that's just the nature of this hobby everywhere. Ask people overseas and the first thing they look for is discounted stores.
Yeah I guess I was more thinking over the past few years before the AUD when down the toilet (sort of 2010-2014), that's when most the local stores around here closed (not saying that's the ONLY reason). It's only really 2015 that things have started to balance out, and even then a lot of stuff is still cheaper to import (most of the WW2 stuff I've been collecting is still cheaper from Firestorm than it is from TCC). I haven't been buying GW stuff lately so I'm not sure what the deal is there, but there used to be local online stores as well that offered bigger discounts than an FLGS could happily sustain.

New trading terms restricted online only stores from selling GW. So a few closed, IIRC. Some are still around. But really, GW's Australian pricing has gone so fething bonkers that even with a discount, they're still insane prices. This is most notable on their new large kits, but some other oddities slip thorugh. $80au for a box of Tau Firewarriors is just laughable even with a 20% discount.

**Runic**

Talys wrote:
With the amount of Sigmar that was released in the half-year (and lack of 40k releases), this is a fantastic half-year statement for GW.

On the other hand, the stock tumbled, probably on the forecast that Christmas sales (which aren't reflected in the statements) are apparently weak, which could mean, maybe: Calth didn't sell as well as we all thought it might; the new Sigmar releases don't have the type of sales potential as 40k, at least at this point (duh); the lack of 40k releases does have profit repercussions for the Christmas season; those Start Collecting sets might have been better released as Christmas gifts. Though my wife is free to buy me one or more of them as Valentine's gifts?

It make actually throw the stock into a weak buy in my opinion; the price will be adjusted for the lower December sales, and with Sigmar not trashing the half-year, the fundamentals for the business look good moving forward.

A few interesting little points that I picked up at a glance...

- EPS is up
- GW actually generated a lot more cash in this half year compared to the same period last year (8.5m vs 7.8m), and paid less taxes.
- Profit, compared with last year, is actually UP (though essentially flat)
- Revenues essentially flat
- Since prices of GW products didn't really go up (excluding single character clam packs that aren't huge sellers) in 2015, that infers that unit volumes are relatively stable
- The two regions with the largest drops are non-UK European retail and Australia
- Once again, they're just paying out their profits (meaning, they don't have anything constructive to do with cash)

A decent report considering last year was mostly about things other than 40K ( AoS, Calth ) if you factor in that there is now more competition in the field than ever before.

I heard from a local FLGS manager that in an email from GW they had somehow "indirectly" stated that AoS was a flop, which I'm sure surprises no one. Hopefully they will learn from this mistake, as there isn't that much wrong with the models ( they are of good quality afterall ) but more so with the rules, which are practically nonexistent.

Perhaps they will have to admit that being just a miniatures company isn't quite enough and make better investment in rules in the future. Ofcourse, the rules weren't the only bad bit about AoS, axing Warhammer as we know it probably played even a bigger part. There are also multiple small signs about changing philosophy, like the Calth box and the new starter boxes which have better value than anything they ever offered for the last decade. I hope the new management can change things further. But any big changes we do will take a long time to become visible to consumers.

**H.B.M.C.**

jonolikespie wrote:
That doesn't seem to be uncommon in Australia, if a GW opens a store on the same street as a FLGS it's the GW that withers and dies.

Heh. That's the truth.

I mean, Para GW store vs the gaming store right next to it.