Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

We did vote to change it to a simple 3 HP/Wounds for ranged D. It is otherwise the same.

@reece, no, I was talking about changing Vehicle Destroyed to -d3 hull points instead of automatically destroying the vehicle, as a systematic nerf to anti-vehicle shooting

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
@reece, no, I was talking about changing Vehicle Destroyed to -d3 hull points instead of automatically destroying the vehicle, as a systematic nerf to anti-vehicle shooting

|That.... wouldn't really do anything. Tanks are getting glanced to death by str 6\Grav\Gauss spam in most competitive games, not exploded.

 Reecius wrote:
@RiTides

Yeah, we're going to restructure the entire FAQ into modules so that folks can see what are clarifications, rules changes and temporary judgements. Although, lol, I am SURE there will be endless arguments about what are clarifications and rules changes as often RAW is so unclear, but, the goal of it will be break the ITC FAQ up into chunks so that folks can use the parts of it they want or don't want, easily.

That is so great!! Cheers for taking the feedback on that from here and elsewhere, will make it so much more versatile and easy to use and modify. Really appreciate this improvement!

@Reece Has your group ever polled or discussed polling limiting the number of factions that can be pulled into a list? I think a big hit to this game is that Imperial armies can pick and choose whatever they want just by adding "white scars" to a librarius conclave to get hunters eye, then taking Inquisition for Coteaz or an anti psyker, then gladius to get everything else they want. Coven get hurt by the limit of formations/CAD (this was just voted on) and need to rely on multiple formations to make a true coven competitive. Yeah...they could go with Eldar but the. They would have to shower afterwards heh.

My point is an attempt to limit the power builds and super friend style lists by limiting the number of factions you can pull from to two.

 Reecius wrote:
But, there are folks who want the most hardcore competitive experience they can get because that is their nature and is totally cool, and may want to not use some of the rules changes we implement. No big deal, we're going to make it easy for people to do that with the ITC, but not have to rewrite the entire FAQ and then update it constantly (which is a HUGE pain in the ass, let me tell you).

And strongly appreciated.

 Reecius wrote:

Like I said, we don't give a rip how folks play, ...

We actively try to encourage players to go to other tournaments, whether they use the ITC format or not. I mean, ... we understand different groups will want subtle changes to reflect their preferred play style, which is 100% fine by us. Variety is fun, too.

This. For all the negative that goes the ITC's way, it saddens me that people still forget this aspect, and then post trash on the Net about Reece's aledged hate for tau/crons/SM etc.

Frankie is not gonna show up in your garage, point the Finger of Accusation, and charge that you are a 40k Heretic for sharing MSS and C&CN tau toys with all firing units. And then beat you with a dread-sock.

I know for a fact that Reece only has a hate for good beer.

Srsly, I am hoping that most players get their flgs to run RTTs monthly, use the ITC faq for some events and then change up for uber cut-throat events with harshest/over powerful rule interpretations:
Crunch! Tankshock
Full piranha recycle
Shared mss and c&cn by all units
2+ 2+ rerolls
Full Invisibility
Full Stomp, including Flipped
Etc.

... and then soften up the next month with fluffy missions, Higlander lists, full ITC faq, and 3e missions (This is Heavy!).

Plug - Game Empire Pasadena does all this and I am happy to advocate for the FLG crew, GE Pasadena, and what Reece has stated above, which might well be FLG's Mission Statment.
...
But if Mariana told me had to play a certain way, I don't know as I could disobey.

 Fishboy wrote:
@Reece Has your group ever polled or discussed polling limiting the number of factions that can be pulled into a list? I think a big hit to this game is that Imperial armies can pick and choose whatever they want just by adding "white scars" to a librarius conclave to get hunters eye, then taking Inquisition for Coteaz or an anti psyker, then gladius to get everything else they want. Coven get hurt by the limit of formations/CAD (this was just voted on) and need to rely on multiple formations to make a true coven competitive. Yeah...they could go with Eldar but the. They would have to shower afterwards heh.

My point is an attempt to limit the power builds and super friend style lists by limiting the number of factions you can pull from to two.

There are a few other ways to go about this. For instance back in the October 6-12th ITC poll, we voted on "Should we treat Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Dark Angels as having Chapter Tactics?". The results were fairly close:
https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2015/10/12/itc-2015-season-3rd-quarter-update-poll-results/

Another way to address deathstars is to fix Battle Brothers. If I recall, 2 years ago there was a vote before LVO that had some question related to that.

The biggest way ITC has dealth with deathstars is the nerf to Invis, rerollable 2+ saves, and with missions that favor MSU (And specifically highly mobile, null deploying MSU).

Centstars, and Wolfstars are still a viable build in the ITC, as are a number of SHV / GC units which are essentially one model deathstars.

Games might be more fun if Battle Brothers were fixed, or if Hit and Run and Ignores cover took a bit of a nerf, but I think Reece, and the other ITC bigwigs are relatively happy with the state of deathstars in the ITC. If anything, the current bogeyman is Warp Spiders / Jetbike Eldar MSU, which is so much more well suited to winning these particular missions than other armies due to the objective placement rules.

 Swampmist wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
@reece, no, I was talking about changing Vehicle Destroyed to -d3 hull points instead of automatically destroying the vehicle, as a systematic nerf to anti-vehicle shooting

That.... wouldn't really do anything. Tanks are getting glanced to death by str 6\Grav\Gauss spam in most competitive games, not exploded.

It's the principle of the thing. The effect is wildly disproportionate, so it's effectively a single-army nerf.

Welp, looks like they just killed off wraithknights...

Hardly. They made them more fair, despite them being ludicrously undercosted.

They still have access to 3+ 5++ 5+++ and can still claim cover if they actually are 25% obscured.

 Drinkgasoline wrote:
Welp, looks like they just killed off wraithknights...

Oh, come on. They are still undercosted by 130 - 200 points. Even without a Toe in Cover save. They will still be in basically all Eldar lists. The change was on the margins, and not nearly significant enough to actually bring them into line with other units, and is to some degree offset by the changes to the missions where Wraithknights no longer give up Maelstrom Points.

A Skathach Wraithknight still puts out more ignore cover shooting than any other unit in the history of 40K, and completely invalidates most Dark Eldar, IG, and Ork lists.


Here is a little challenge for you. The Skathach Wraithknight costs 315 points. Build me a 315 point unit from any non-eldar codex that kills it.

tag8833 wrote:

 Fishboy wrote:
@Reece Has your group ever polled or discussed polling limiting the number of factions that can be pulled into a list? I think a big hit to this game is that Imperial armies can pick and choose whatever they want just by adding "white scars" to a librarius conclave to get hunters eye, then taking Inquisition for Coteaz or an anti psyker, then gladius to get everything else they want. Coven get hurt by the limit of formations/CAD (this was just voted on) and need to rely on multiple formations to make a true coven competitive. Yeah...they could go with Eldar but the. They would have to shower afterwards heh.

My point is an attempt to limit the power builds and super friend style lists by limiting the number of factions you can pull from to two.

There are a few other ways to go about this. For instance back in the October 6-12th ITC poll, we voted on "Should we treat Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Dark Angels as having Chapter Tactics?". The results were fairly close:
https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2015/10/12/itc-2015-season-3rd-quarter-update-poll-results/

Another way to address deathstars is to fix Battle Brothers. If I recall, 2 years ago there was a vote before LVO that had some question related to that.

The biggest way ITC has dealth with deathstars is the nerf to Invis, rerollable 2+ saves, and with missions that favor MSU (And specifically highly mobile, null deploying MSU).

Centstars, and Wolfstars are still a viable build in the ITC, as are a number of SHV / GC units which are essentially one model deathstars.

Games might be more fun if Battle Brothers were fixed, or if Hit and Run and Ignores cover took a bit of a nerf, but I think Reece, and the other ITC bigwigs are relatively happy with the state of deathstars in the ITC. If anything, the current bogeyman is Warp Spiders / Jetbike Eldar MSU, which is so much more well suited to winning these particular missions than other armies due to the objective placement rules.

I don't think the warp spiders are the do all beat all honestly but that just may be local meta. At least I can kill warp spiders. Where I struggle and have the least amount of fun is when I Am playing these cobbled Imperial list that combine every special rule in the book and are un-kill able. I read the list that was posted in the ITC battle report this week and see exactly what is wrong with tournament play right now. I don't see how a game is "tactical" when you are bringing list like that. Yes it is a lot of points sunk into one unit but all the combos make them super hard to kill for non Death Star armies and hard to counter. That is when it becomes non fun for me. I don't mind a hard game but impossible odds make the game pointless imo.

tag8833 wrote:

Here is a little challenge for you. The Skathach Wraithknight costs 315 points. Build me a 315 point unit from any non-eldar codex that kills it.

That's not how the math of the game works.

1. Build me a 240 point that can kill 6 necron wraiths. There are tons of example like that.

2. If every units was capable of killing 100%+ of its' point in one turn people would be tabling each other after 1 shooting/assault phase.

 Reecius wrote:
@Thread

Yeah, Dreads need something, I agree.

It would be fun to see dreads on top tables again and not just there for fun

 Mulletdude wrote:

 Reecius wrote:
@Thread

Yeah, Dreads need something, I agree.

It would be fun to see dreads on top tables again and not just there for fun

God, yes. I do not at all advocate for the following since creating whole new stat lines is not a good idea, but I just sit and imagine how cool Dreads would be with the following conversion:

HP= Wounds, maybe throw in an extra so they are all at 4 like a Carnifex.
Toughness = half (round down) of Front Armor.
Armor save = blanket 3+.
Keep weapon options, points, etc all the same. Convert to full MC rules, no longer a vehicle.

Boom, they were go.

Again, don't advocate for such a change on principle, but it would be a fun experiment to see how a dread army did with those changes.

lemurking23 wrote:
It would be fun to see dreads on top tables again and not just there for fun

God, yes. I do not at all advocate for the following since creating whole new stat lines is not a good idea, but I just sit and imagine how cool Dreads would be with the following conversion:

HP= Wounds, maybe throw in an extra so they are all at 4 like a Carnifex.
Toughness = half (round down) of Front Armor.
Armor save = blanket 3+.
Keep weapon options, points, etc all the same. Convert to full MC rules, no longer a vehicle.

Boom, they were go.

Again, don't advocate for such a change on principle, but it would be a fun experiment to see how a dread army did with those changes.

Anecdotal :
At a Highlander tourney I filled in points with a Wraith Lord, which is nearly what you have ... *non* proposed.

He was not so effective in all three games. The WLord and dreads would need an Invuln or FNP. Something. But that does lead us away from the main discussion, and the silliness that is rewriting stats. So I'll let it die there.

I'm with you though. Owning models (my dreadnaughts) that stay in the box for years is a sad thing.

 ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:

tag8833 wrote:

Here is a little challenge for you. The Skathach Wraithknight costs 315 points. Build me a 315 point unit from any non-eldar codex that kills it.

That's not how the math of the game works.

1. Build me a 240 point that can kill 6 necron wraiths. There are tons of example like that.

Sure: 1 Hive Tyrant with Wings, 2 TL Devourers, and for the heck of it Desiccator Larva. I could probably design 3 dozen units that can handle Necron Wraiths. I think every codex in 40K would probably be able to do that. That is why Necron Wraiths aren't as problematic as something like a Skathach Wraithknight. They are really, really, really good, incredibly points efficient. The Skathach Wraithknight. is on a whole other level. It is faster, killyer, and more durable on a point for point basis compared to Necron Wraiths. Drinkgasoline was arguing that the Wraithknight was no longer viable in the ITC. I was making a point that he was wrong.

 ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:
2. If every units was capable of killing 100%+ of its' point in one turn people would be tabling each other after 1 shooting/assault phase.

That isn't the issue here. The issue is the Skathach Wraithknight. rocking the double Hellstorm is quasi unbeatable for several entire codexes. Its ignore cover damage output is unlike anything else the game has ever seen, it comes with the durability of a Wraithknight, and adds to it more mobility, and the ability to get out of close combat.

Yes it took a nerf from the changes to cover, but it is still undercosted in a way that nothing else in the game can begin to match, and so unless we wise up, and FAQ it, or Ban the double hellstorm variant, it will be in the Competitive Meta for the foreseeable future, and regularly finding a place on top tables.

 ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:

tag8833 wrote:

Here is a little challenge for you. The Skathach Wraithknight costs 315 points. Build me a 315 point unit from any non-eldar codex that kills it.

That's not how the math of the game works.

1. Build me a 240 point that can kill 6 necron wraiths. There are tons of example like that.

Poor example. A WS Command Squad with Stormshields and Gravguns runs roughshod through Wraiths for a similar pricepoint, even without IC support. Grav in general crushes them. Trust me, from experience.

2. If every units was capable of killing 100%+ of its' point in one turn people would be tabling each other after 1 shooting/assault phase.

That's not the point. It isn't that everyone is always going to have a point-efficient counter on the table for everything that exists - that'd be impossible. That's why meta-breakers come around, a list that shows up and no one has the tools to deal with.

The point is that everyone knows and expects to have to fight Wraithknights when they go to a tournament, but many books just physically don't have a point-efficient counter to deal with them even if you specifically plan for facing one in every game. And then even if you do make a super expensive counter unit, it suddenly becomes worthless against other targets.

If every army had a ~300 point tool for dealing with WKs, no one would complain about them because you'd just put it in there and have it. But most armies don't, and don't want to have to make a topheavy "anti-WK" army just to compete.

I can't tell you how many times I've made a TAC list and sadly thought about how a WK would make it cry because it doesn't really have the tools to deal with an insanely cheap GC on top of an Eldar army (or specifically, for Adepticon, 2 WKs).

 RiTides wrote:

 Reecius wrote:
@RiTides

Yeah, we're going to restructure the entire FAQ into modules so that folks can see what are clarifications, rules changes and temporary judgements. Although, lol, I am SURE there will be endless arguments about what are clarifications and rules changes as often RAW is so unclear, but, the goal of it will be break the ITC FAQ up into chunks so that folks can use the parts of it they want or don't want, easily.

That is so great!! Cheers for taking the feedback on that from here and elsewhere, will make it so much more versatile and easy to use and modify. Really appreciate this improvement!

Yeah that's going to help a lot. THank Reccius.

tag8833 wrote:

 Drinkgasoline wrote:
Welp, looks like they just killed off wraithknights...

Oh, come on. They are still undercosted by 130 - 200 points. Even without a Toe in Cover save. They will still be in basically all Eldar lists. The change was on the margins, and not nearly significant enough to actually bring them into line with other units, and is to some degree offset by the changes to the missions where Wraithknights no longer give up Maelstrom Points.

A Skathach Wraithknight still puts out more ignore cover shooting than any other unit in the history of 40K, and completely invalidates most Dark Eldar, IG, and Ork lists.


Here is a little challenge for you. The Skathach Wraithknight costs 315 points. Build me a 315 point unit from any non-eldar codex that kills it.

3 Ultramarines centurions with lvl 1 librarian with auspex = 310pts

I reckon this will have a bigger impact than you think, a huge amount of the WK's survivability was due to it basically always having a 4++ ruins against shooting. Now it's pretty soft, especially to all grav

 Drinkgasoline wrote:

tag8833 wrote:

 Drinkgasoline wrote:
Welp, looks like they just killed off wraithknights...

Oh, come on. They are still undercosted by 130 - 200 points. Even without a Toe in Cover save. They will still be in basically all Eldar lists. The change was on the margins, and not nearly significant enough to actually bring them into line with other units, and is to some degree offset by the changes to the missions where Wraithknights no longer give up Maelstrom Points.

A Skathach Wraithknight still puts out more ignore cover shooting than any other unit in the history of 40K, and completely invalidates most Dark Eldar, IG, and Ork lists.


Here is a little challenge for you. The Skathach Wraithknight costs 315 points. Build me a 315 point unit from any non-eldar codex that kills it.

3 Ultramarines centurions with lvl 1 librarian with auspex = 310pts

I reckon this will have a bigger impact than you think, a huge amount of the WK's survivability was due to it basically always having a 4++ ruins against shooting. Now it's pretty soft, especially to all grav

Lets see. If the Centurions shoot 1st: 10 Hits, 8.88 wounds, 5.92 after FNP. So if the Centurions go 1st, and are in range, then yes they might kill a Wraith Knight. If they fail the Wrathknight will move 18", Kill 1 Centurion, and then be in range for a roughly 6" charge with fleet, after which it will eat the cents.

If the Wraith Knight goes 1st or the Centurions are out of range: 2.59 wounds to the Centurions. That is 1 dead. Now the Cents shoot back: 3.9 wounds. Now the Wraithknight eats them.

I would say that is a failure, because it requires that the Wraith Knight player put it into range, and let the Cents get 1st shot. They could always go 1st, and jump the Wraithknight into reserves, or Go 2nd, and not deploy it. It is possible that the Cents could pull it off, unlikely, but possible. Your best case scenario is still pretty iffy. Also, show me how to build that list from the Dark Eldar codex. Maybe the Ork Codex? Tyranids? Astra Militarum?

I would say that the WK is still incredibly undercosted, and super viable in competitive play. Certainly more Viable than Grav Centurions.

tag8833 wrote:

 Drinkgasoline wrote:

tag8833 wrote:

 Drinkgasoline wrote:
Welp, looks like they just killed off wraithknights...

Oh, come on. They are still undercosted by 130 - 200 points. Even without a Toe in Cover save. They will still be in basically all Eldar lists. The change was on the margins, and not nearly significant enough to actually bring them into line with other units, and is to some degree offset by the changes to the missions where Wraithknights no longer give up Maelstrom Points.

A Skathach Wraithknight still puts out more ignore cover shooting than any other unit in the history of 40K, and completely invalidates most Dark Eldar, IG, and Ork lists.


Here is a little challenge for you. The Skathach Wraithknight costs 315 points. Build me a 315 point unit from any non-eldar codex that kills it.

3 Ultramarines centurions with lvl 1 librarian with auspex = 310pts

I reckon this will have a bigger impact than you think, a huge amount of the WK's survivability was due to it basically always having a 4++ ruins against shooting. Now it's pretty soft, especially to all grav

Lets see. If the Centurions shoot 1st: 10 Hits, 8.88 wounds, 5.92 after FNP. So if the Centurions go 1st, and are in range, then yes they might kill a Wraith Knight. If they fail the Wrathknight will move 18", Kill 1 Centurion, and then be in range for a roughly 6" charge with fleet, after which it will eat the cents.

If the Wraith Knight goes 1st or the Centurions are out of range: 2.59 wounds to the Centurions. That is 1 dead. Now the Cents shoot back: 3.9 wounds. Now the Wraithknight eats them.

I would say that is a failure, because it requires that the Wraith Knight player put it into range, and let the Cents get 1st shot. They could always go 1st, and jump the Wraithknight into reserves, or Go 2nd, and not deploy it. It is possible that the Cents could pull it off, unlikely, but possible. Your best case scenario is still pretty iffy. Also, show me how to build that list from the Dark Eldar codex. Maybe the Ork Codex? Tyranids? Astra Militarum?

I would say that the WK is still incredibly undercosted, and super viable in competitive play. Certainly more Viable than Grav Centurions.

To be fair your example is also after the cover nerf with cover saves the centurions doesn't have a chance.

Now if those cents had a pod and the librarian rolls a decent power...

Don't the Cent's get the Pod for FREE?

Dedicated Transport Rhinos, Razorbacks and Drop Pods are free and Centurions can't take a Drop Pod.

Were we talking about a Gladius? You can buy the Centurions a Fast Attack Drop Pod.

Besides, I have never seen a battle company list take a Centurion Squad.

 Drinkgasoline wrote:
3 Ultramarines centurions with lvl 1 librarian with auspex = 310pts

I reckon this will have a bigger impact than you think, a huge amount of the WK's survivability was due to it basically always having a 4++ ruins against shooting. Now it's pretty soft, especially to all grav

Ok, ok, ok, let me make sure I got this right we are comparing the grav-centurions in a drop pod to the best unit in the game the wraithknight!

First off, their are 4 phases of the game lets compare:

Movement:Wraithknight
Psychic:Neither
Shooting:very close but lets pretend its not and say centurions
Assault:Wraithknight

In the movement phase one can move 12 inches, over units, and has move through cover if they try to deploy away from it you can get there in a minimum of 2 turns, the other unit has slow and purpseful, enough said right?

We are going to assume that the hellstorm templates on a model that can move 12 inches is not as good as 15 grav-shots, so we are going to give shooting to the centurions.

Now, in the assault phase the wraithknight walks through everything! Mass infantry dies to the stomps, Imperial Knights die to the i 5 str 10 or most of the time str D attacks, same goes for monstrous creatures so in the assault phase its not even close!

No lets talk about the things that you cant theory hammer. If you have a wraithknight center of board after their first turn it is literally a threat to everything in your opponents army. Can centurions drop pod in and threaten everything in your opponents army?

Why is this a conversation, the wraithknight is the best unit in the game hands down, does that mean we should vote on banning it I think not but the hellstorm template one I must say if it was a vote I would say no as it is already King of the Hill does it really need hellstorm templates? I don't even know the stats for the gun what is the stats for the template is it one or two templates?

Just because the wraithknight can be killed by a unit that cost the same as it doesn't diminish its dominance. Grav-guns is the most powerful weapon Imperials have and it doesnt get the job done all the time, what about non - imperials? This unit is an auto win button vs certain builds and the arguement that grav-centurions can kill it means very little to tyranid or ork players!

What is the new hellstorm template that the King can get?

On another note I placed 5th in my first ITC event, I believe I could have done better but I wasnt as sharp on my rules as I should have been due to my hiatas and my opponent thought I was slow playing so instead of getting close to max points first round I agreed to only get half. When I talked to the guy after the game I understood his point of view alot better he had driven 4 hours to get to the tournament so I would be frustrated to if I thought someone was not prepared and slow playing although I believe I was in complete control of the game with him having less than 20 models left on the field 10 of them being dark eldar warriors, I digress. I learned alot though I learned that I need to play the game more and be better prepared! I still think I did good for someone who has not played his IG in a year and half though!