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I'm really interested in using Deathwatch to augment my GK. The standout of the new Deathwatch Codex to me is the Intercessors being able to add in either a single Aggressor or a single Inceptor to gain a great buff. My initial list to test with Deathwatch is about 900 points, and it's 2 Primaris Captains, followed by 3 identical squads of Intercessors: 9 Intercessors with Stalker Boltguns and a single Aggressor. The Primaris are shooting at 36" range, can move and fire heavy weapons without penalty (thanks to the Agrressor), and can take special ammo to wound on a 2+ with a -2AP weapon. With the Captains nearby, you're re-rolling 1s to hit, and depending on your Mission Tactic, re-rolling 1s to wound.

Artemis vs Watchmaster, I much prefer Watchmaster, from my limited experience with my new DW. But I also rate a Watchcaptain over Artemis too!

The 5++ bubble relic is a great opener for your covus and other high priority targets like ven dreads, and once baby sitting duties are done, the cap can jump about thunderhammering things in the head... great counterassault unit.

So while I've run my WC in the back, I've had a bit of luck running my WM up front with the Osseus Key in my Corvus. They guy has been a solid vehicle hunter in the few games I've used him like this.

He jumps out with his libby retinue who drop smites. He triggers clavis and tempest shells for 2d3 mortal wounds, and closes to do another 1d3 in CC. If the vehicle survives, it's severely degraded and is also -1 to hit due to the relic. I run my vets almost pure storm bolters, so his reroll up front makes a big difference to the dakka. It all stacks together to output great shots on mooks and great mortal wounds on tough targets. I think WM tooled to hunt vehicles might actually be competitive.

A competitive mostly-deathwatch list... The deathwatch clear screens with murderous bolter fire, to allow the BA smash-captains to jump down and break exposed vehicles. AM battalion sits at the back taking lascannon pot shots.

Deathwatch battalion

Watchmaster
Watch captain with jump pack, storm bolter and thunder hammer

Primaris kill team - 5 intercessors, 4 aggressors, 1 inceptor
Primaris kill team - 5 intercessors, 4 aggressors, 1 inceptor
Primaris kill team - 5 intercessors, 2 aggressors, 2 hellblasters, 1 inceptor
Primaris kill team 5 intercessors, 2 hellblasters

Blood angels battalion

Captain with jump pack, storm shield and thunder hammer
Captain with jump pack, storm shield and thunder hammer
5 Scouts with bolters
5 Scouts with bolters
5 Scouts with bolters

Astra Militarum battalion (cadian)

Company commander (warlord, grand strategist, Kurov's aquila)
Primaris psyker (psychic maelstrom)
Infantry squad with lascannon 60pts
Infantry squad with lascannon 60pts
Infantry squad with lascannon 60pts

Martel732 wrote:
Scouts are... meh. I won't miss them much if I drop them from my lists for DW. I feel like I'm giving away 165 pts every game.

Then you aren't playing in a very expansive meta. The one thing DW lacks is screens. You may not think 11 point models aren't worth sacrificing, but consider all the things they can do for you.

Would you prefer your 20+ point marines be the ones to catch Smites? I'm not talking smite spam armies because a couple Librarians can ruin your day. Without units like scouts, how do you intend to zone out deep strike? Probably not a good idea to let your Intercessors eat drop plasma even if it's coming in turn 2. Enough scouts in cover can achieve board control, secure objectives, and will protect your real important damaging units for a turn or 2.

Now, they aren't the best at this job. They deploy better than other screens. They are a bit more durable, and they can bring a source of mortal wounds and strong anti-infantry, but their cost means less bodies to do the job you want them to.

IG will of course remain the best screens, but scouts shouldn't be ignored if you want to stay mono-marine. I'd love to get scouts in DW.

Scouts don't do their job as well anymore, because turn 2 deep striking gives them a turn to clean out the scouts. At least, that's what keeps happening.

That's why my thoughts are still similar to DoomMouse's: Min BA battalion for 3 Scout units and 2 smash captains. That or use RG and also add in the longer range fire support that DW doesn't have access or doesn't give benefits to.

Scouts win games.

bort wrote:
That's why my thoughts are still similar to DoomMouse's: Min BA battalion for 3 Scout units and 2 smash captains. That or use RG and also add in the longer range fire support that DW doesn't have access or doesn't give benefits to.

A Raven Guard batt could be interesting alongside a nice squad of Devastators of course

Having trouble giving up the cheap AM Batt, though.

Am I missing something or can't you use "Adeptus Astartes" as your detachment keyword to stay battleforged and just throw the scouts in with the rest of the DW?

 combatcotton wrote:
Am I missing something or can't you use "Adeptus Astartes" as your detachment keyword to stay battleforged and just throw the scouts in with the rest of the DW?

You can, but you give up ObjSec and mission tactics / chapter tactics for that detachment.

 combatcotton wrote:
Am I missing something or can't you use "Adeptus Astartes" as your detachment keyword to stay battleforged and just throw the scouts in with the rest of the DW?

You lose mission tactics and stratagems and most everything that makes DW worth consideration.

thankz

This is where i am currently at with my list. built for ITC missions, starts with 18 command points

130 watch master
130 watch master
207 x7 veterans, x7 storm bolters, x2 storm shields, x5 chainswords, x1 vanguard vet, x2 chainswords, terminator, storm bolter, power maul
207 x7 veterans, x7 storm bolters, x2 storm shields, x5 chainswords, x1 vanguard vet, x2 chainswords, terminator, storm bolter, power maul
207 x7 veterans, x7 storm bolters, x2 storm shields, x5 chainswords, x1 vanguard vet, x2 chainswords, terminator, storm bolter, power maul
135 mortis dreadnought, x2 twin autocannons
135 mortis dreadnought, x2 twin autocannons
135 mortis dreadnought, x2 twin autocannons

129 Blood Angels captain, jump pack, thunder hammer, storm shield
129 Blood Angels captain, jump pack, thunder hammer, storm shield
55 x5 scouts
55 x5 scouts
55 x5 scouts

31 company commander, bolter( Warlord)
31 company commander, bolter
45 x9 guard, x1 mortar
45 x9 guard, x1 mortar
40 x10 guard
33 x3 mortars
33 x3 mortars
33 x3 mortars
2000

 grouchoben wrote:

The 5++ bubble relic is a great opener for your covus and other high priority targets like ven dreads, and once baby sitting duties are done, the cap can jump about thunderhammering things in the head... great counterassault unit.

Does the Dominus Aegis work turn 1? It states you have to not move in the movement phase?

IVIOOSE wrote:
This is where i am currently at with my list. built for ITC missions, starts with 18 command points

130 watch master
130 watch master
207 x7 veterans, x7 storm bolters, x2 storm shields, x5 chainswords, x1 vanguard vet, x2 chainswords, terminator, storm bolter, power maul
207 x7 veterans, x7 storm bolters, x2 storm shields, x5 chainswords, x1 vanguard vet, x2 chainswords, terminator, storm bolter, power maul
207 x7 veterans, x7 storm bolters, x2 storm shields, x5 chainswords, x1 vanguard vet, x2 chainswords, terminator, storm bolter, power maul
135 mortis dreadnought, x2 twin autocannons
135 mortis dreadnought, x2 twin autocannons
135 mortis dreadnought, x2 twin autocannons

129 Blood Angels captain, jump pack, thunder hammer, storm shield
129 Blood Angels captain, jump pack, thunder hammer, storm shield
55 x5 scouts
55 x5 scouts
55 x5 scouts

31 company commander, bolter( Warlord)
31 company commander, bolter
45 x9 guard, x1 mortar
45 x9 guard, x1 mortar
40 x10 guard
33 x3 mortars
33 x3 mortars
33 x3 mortars
2000

Not near enough AT. 24 Str 7 AP -1 2D shots even with all your rerolls and +1 to wound (only applies to one dreads shooting) is going to do dick all to a Leman Russ, much less 3+ Leman Russes before they turn around and delete your three T7 8W models with no invulns or hit penalties. You'll clear hordes really well though, but against any significant armor you are screwed.

The Smash Captains are good at anti armor work, but they are limited in their choice of targets and likely to die afterwards.

So I've obtained a copy of the codex and have been reading it over. I've always loved the Deathwatch, especially when the plastic kit was released, but they've always been too few in number for my liking. While similar armies like Custodians or Harlequins are also small, elite forces, they have a bit more survivability in the form of Invulnerables, multi-wounds, and are a lot faster due to innate speed or DTs/Deep Striking/Bikes etc.

With the new book, are DW still in that rut of "expensive when kitted out but still die as easily as normal Marines"? I'd like to get a small force, maybe to act on their own, maybe as part of a soup-list, but they seem just too expensive for their output.

 Valkyrie wrote:

With the new book, are DW still in that rut of "expensive when kitted out but still die as easily as normal Marines"? I'd like to get a small force, maybe to act on their own, maybe as part of a soup-list, but they seem just too expensive for their output.

Unfortunately the Codex has not done much to improve durability. DW are very much a glass cannon type of force, which is why the best results will be had by allying them with someone that can provide what they lack.

 Valkyrie wrote:
So I've obtained a copy of the codex and have been reading it over. I've always loved the Deathwatch, especially when the plastic kit was released, but they've always been too few in number for my liking. While similar armies like Custodians or Harlequins are also small, elite forces, they have a bit more survivability in the form of Invulnerables, multi-wounds, and are a lot faster due to innate speed or DTs/Deep Striking/Bikes etc.

With the new book, are DW still in that rut of "expensive when kitted out but still die as easily as normal Marines"? I'd like to get a small force, maybe to act on their own, maybe as part of a soup-list, but they seem just too expensive for their output.

Their output has gotten a huge buff with the addition of storm bolters being able to take SIA, chapter tactics, and stratagems, and their durability has improved with Primaris marines. I don't know how good they're going to be, but time will tell.

 ikeulhu wrote:

 Valkyrie wrote:

With the new book, are DW still in that rut of "expensive when kitted out but still die as easily as normal Marines"? I'd like to get a small force, maybe to act on their own, maybe as part of a soup-list, but they seem just too expensive for their output.

Unfortunately the Codex has not done much to improve durability. DW are very much a glass cannon type of force, which is why the best results will be had by allying them with someone that can provide what they lack.

I disagree a bit on this. Sure, as a single force, DW still has some big pitfalls. It's too easy to get caught up with the flexibility of Veterans or Fortis Kill Teams and start adding a ton of things that aren't necessary. The army also lacks any form of decent screening unit. So those issues haven't really changed.

But the inclusion of Primaris has given DW a more durable kill team option. They don't really have the same flexibility or damage output as the Veterans, but they're certainly harder to shift from a position and are competitively priced. They also solve many of the Primaris issues, like adding ablative wounds to Aggressors so you can actually get them to fire twice, or giving some Hellblasters the option to fall back and shoot so they aren't silenced when someone drives a Wave Serpent into them.

Veterans themselves have always been more survivable than normal Marines because of the availability of Storm Shields and the option to add a Terminator to the squad to tank any low AP shots with his 2 wounds. Thanks to the Codex you can add to their durability with the Teleportarium stratagem by keeping these glasscannons off the board for a bit. They're also slightly cheaper than they were in the Index, and gain a doubling of offensive firepower now that storm bolters can fire SIA. They can definitely be a solid force for friendly, non-competitive games. For more competitive types, you'll want to ally something in with them to provide the things they lack.

Lemondish wrote:

I disagree a bit on this. Sure, as a single force, DW still has some big pitfalls. It's too easy to get caught up with the flexibility of Veterans or Fortis Kill Teams and start adding a ton of things that aren't necessary. The army also lacks any form of decent screening unit. So those issues haven't really changed.

But the inclusion of Primaris has given DW a more durable kill team option. They don't really have the same flexibility or damage output as the Veterans, but they're certainly harder to shift from a position and are competitively priced. They also solve many of the Primaris issues, like adding ablative wounds to Aggressors so you can actually get them to fire twice, or giving some Hellblasters the option to fall back and shoot so they aren't silenced when someone drives a Wave Serpent into them.

Veterans themselves have always been more survivable than normal Marines because of the availability of Storm Shields and the option to add a Terminator to the squad to tank any low AP shots with his 2 wounds. Thanks to the Codex you can add to their durability with the Teleportarium stratagem by keeping these glasscannons off the board for a bit. They're also slightly cheaper than they were in the Index, and gain a doubling of offensive firepower now that storm bolters can fire SIA. They can definitely be a solid force for friendly, non-competitive games. For more competitive types, you'll want to ally something in with them to provide the things they lack.

I actually agree with your assessment. The Primaris kill team does provide a more durable option to the army as a stand alone, but I do not think that it would be enough to make a difference in a truly competitive environment, just as you mentioned. That extra wound does not do much against plasma spam after all. For more casual games, it could potentially work, and even taking Veterans with Stormbolters and Storm Shields and/or mixing in Terminators is an option that provides improved durability with decent firepower, although mortal wounds would still be a big problem for them. It is really the lack of screening units that I think hurts the DW the most. Just having access to scouts would help them be able to stand alone on a competitive level in my opinion.

 ikeulhu wrote:

I actually agree with your assessment. The Primaris kill team does provide a more durable option to the army as a stand alone, but I do not think that it would be enough to make a difference in a truly competitive environment, just as you mentioned. That extra wound does not do much against plasma spam after all. For more casual games, it could potentially work, and even taking Veterans with Stormbolters and Storm Shields and/or mixing in Terminators is an option that provides improved durability with decent firepower, although mortal wounds would still be a big problem for them. It is really the lack of screening units that I think hurts the DW the most. Just having access to scouts would help them be able to stand alone on a competitive level in my opinion.

Absolutely - agreed on all points. The lack of effective screening means they're susceptible to everything you mentioned here. But...add in an AM Battalion and you're plugging a lot of those holes. Heck, go with the plug-and-play BA battalion with scouts as well. Now mortal wounds from psykers can't hit your Primaris - they have to hit your screen. Plasma also can't rapid fire on your Primaris from deep strike - they're zoned out by your screen, which halves the damage they can do to those 2 wound models.

DW is definitely a force that needs help elsewhere at the competitive level, but you can bring a lot of really fine toys and stratagems to make that 1000-1500 points of DW really strong.

Yeah, I am currently looking at using a Mechanicus Battalion with my DW to provide extra CP's and screening units, as well as some added Vehicle killing power. Using an IG or the BA scout battalion might be more competitive, but I am a big fan of the Mechanicus and I like using an ally that is less used by others. You can sure fill in a lot of DW's holes with just a single detachment costing less than 500 points!

 ikeulhu wrote:
Yeah, I am currently looking at using a Mechanicus Battalion with my DW to provide extra CP's and screening units, as well as some added Vehicle killing power. Using an IG or the BA scout battalion might be more competitive, but I am a big fan of the Mechanicus and I like using an ally that is less used by others. You can sure fill in a lot of DW's holes with just a single detachment costing less than 500 points!

Nothing wrong with that, and they do the job very well so I wouldn't even say it isn't particularly competitive.

Lemondish wrote:

 ikeulhu wrote:

 Valkyrie wrote:

With the new book, are DW still in that rut of "expensive when kitted out but still die as easily as normal Marines"? I'd like to get a small force, maybe to act on their own, maybe as part of a soup-list, but they seem just too expensive for their output.

Unfortunately the Codex has not done much to improve durability. DW are very much a glass cannon type of force, which is why the best results will be had by allying them with someone that can provide what they lack.

I disagree a bit on this. Sure, as a single force, DW still has some big pitfalls. It's too easy to get caught up with the flexibility of Veterans or Fortis Kill Teams and start adding a ton of things that aren't necessary. The army also lacks any form of decent screening unit. So those issues haven't really changed.

But the inclusion of Primaris has given DW a more durable kill team option. They don't really have the same flexibility or damage output as the Veterans, but they're certainly harder to shift from a position and are competitively priced. They also solve many of the Primaris issues, like adding ablative wounds to Aggressors so you can actually get them to fire twice, or giving some Hellblasters the option to fall back and shoot so they aren't silenced when someone drives a Wave Serpent into them.

Veterans themselves have always been more survivable than normal Marines because of the availability of Storm Shields and the option to add a Terminator to the squad to tank any low AP shots with his 2 wounds. Thanks to the Codex you can add to their durability with the Teleportarium stratagem by keeping these glasscannons off the board for a bit. They're also slightly cheaper than they were in the Index, and gain a doubling of offensive firepower now that storm bolters can fire SIA. They can definitely be a solid force for friendly, non-competitive games. For more competitive types, you'll want to ally something in with them to provide the things they lack.

That's what I'm concerned about. They have some nice new toys (despite some stuff I've heard I rather like Intercessors), but once you begin to kit your guys out, really make them a considerable force, you're looking at probably 25-40pts per Marine, who will die just as easily as a regular one.

Also theres the annoying fact that if you want to mix up your units you'll have to buy a few different kits, the price will soon add up.

An intercessor costs 20 pts, and has two wounds, which means you could have 5 guardsmen instead and get 5 wounds. However, the bolt rifle with SIA finally gives some meaningful advantage over the guardsmen. Is it enough to make up the wound difference? I guess we'll find out.

Guardsmen so jelly for some SIA.

If I can make a prediction, we'll never see a primarily Deathwatch army top competitive.

However, I think rather than Deathwatch with allies, we'll likely see Deathwatch be used as allies. AM Brigade primary force with a Deathwatch Patrol being used as a deep striking elite assassin force. They are not durable as a primary force to not have games end like I mentioned (someone getting tabled turn 3), but basically take the role that Scions have and replace them with a Deathwatch to deep strike some RIDICULOUS fire. I think they'll be a strong element in Imperium lists, especially if Xenos continue to rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I did a maths. The green indicates the highest possible damage. All maths are per-weapon and do not factor in rerolls to hit OR wound.



From my findings I came to a few conclusions:
1. Always rapid fire. In all cases, even against a hive tyrant, go for the ammo that is going to get you the most shots every single time. If you are 14" away never use Hellfire when you can use Kraken rounds. If you are 10" away never use Vengeance rounds when you can use Hellfire rounds. If you are in range to rapid fire with Kraken rounds, always use Kraken rounds.

2. The Kraken rounds lose out in almost every category except range, but since rapid firing is so critical I think they'll see the majority of use.

3. Hellfire should be used exclusively on Orks, I think it goes without saying, and anything above T4 should also probably get hit with Hellfire rounds.

4. I think Auto Bolt Rifles are competitive and aren't as bad as people make them. The damage tradeoff is very low considering the extra range and the ability to advance and keep that range. It all depends on the army your facing unfortunately, and I think the regular Bolt Rifles might win out simply due to the lower cost.

It's useful to see those numbers.

It's a shame that you missed out plaguebearers though, as those are one of the top horde units right now. Clearly, the best thing to use against them is hellfire, and the best way to do that is with auto bolt rifles and storm bolters.

That's why I like auto bolt rifles for intercessors. They aren't ever really worse than the rapid fire option, but you're faster and can hit twice from further away.

Mandragola wrote:

That's why I like auto bolt rifles for intercessors. They aren't ever really worse than the rapid fire option, but you're faster and can hit twice from further away.

They also benefit from the Aggressor's buff, making them especially worth considering if you plan on mixing Aggressors in with your Intercessors.

 ikeulhu wrote:

Mandragola wrote:

That's why I like auto bolt rifles for intercessors. They aren't ever really worse than the rapid fire option, but you're faster and can hit twice from further away.

They also benefit from the Aggressor's buff, making them especially worth considering if you plan on mixing Aggressors in with your Intercessors.

Yeah exactly.

I think it makes sense to have auto rifles in intergressor squads and standard rifles with heltercessors - which is my new favourite word. Have an inceptor, 5 intercessors and 4 aggressors/hellblasters in each squad.