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Skhmt wrote: Is 5 intercessor with stalker bolt rifles, 4 hellblasters with heavy plasma, and 1 aggressor worth the points?
In my opinion, no. I don't think the heavy versions of bolt rifles or plasma incinerators are as good as the rapid fire or assault versions. One marginally better shot is never as good as two shots. GW doesn't understand that really basic fact, so they charge more points for worse guns. Avoid.
On top of that you're paying 37 points for an aggressor just so the unit can move and shoot - which rapid fire guys could do for free - and you've got no inceptor so you can't fall back and shoot.
Skhmt wrote: Is 5 intercessor with stalker bolt rifles, 4 hellblasters with heavy plasma, and 1 aggressor worth the points?
In my opinion, no. I don't think the heavy versions of bolt rifles or plasma incinerators are as good as the rapid fire or assault versions. One marginally better shot is never as good as two shots. GW doesn't understand that really basic fact, so they charge more points for worse guns. Avoid.
On top of that you're paying 37 points for an aggressor just so the unit can move and shoot - which rapid fire guys could do for free - and you've got no inceptor so you can't fall back and shoot.
The reason I think 5 SBRs + an agressor might be worth it is for taking down non-vehicle hard targets, or even some vehicle targets with a +1 to wound strat in play.
the innate -2 on the SBR makes hellfire incredibly effective vs: (DPs, Tyranids, Some other choas beasties, Tau suits, certain necron units) because they wound well and can still deny the majority of a save, unlike BR/ABR which are mostly either/or.
vs vehicles, you can hit out to 42" with kraken or 30" with vengeance, apply the appropriate doctrine, and now you're wounding on 4s/rr1 and anything that gets through denies most of the save. not too bad for infantry weapons vs T7. Speaking from experience playing craftworlds, that's better chances than shuriken cannons have vs vehicles, and they do a lot of work already.
Skhmt wrote: Is 5 intercessor with stalker bolt rifles, 4 hellblasters with heavy plasma, and 1 aggressor worth the points?
In my opinion, no. I don't think the heavy versions of bolt rifles or plasma incinerators are as good as the rapid fire or assault versions. One marginally better shot is never as good as two shots. GW doesn't understand that really basic fact, so they charge more points for worse guns. Avoid.
On top of that you're paying 37 points for an aggressor just so the unit can move and shoot - which rapid fire guys could do for free - and you've got no inceptor so you can't fall back and shoot.
Going to echo exactly this. I know folks like stalkers (or maybe they just like the idea of stalkers), but with such a limited weight of fire they are not worth it at all.
Maybe they can be effective if you drop the hellblasters because what's the point of inflating the cost of this unit even more if you're using the Intercessors to target the same things you would normally want to throw the plasma at. Also ditch the Aggressor who will never shoot if you're trying to stay at max range anyway. Park the squad in cover and never ever move it, because honestly what's the point of adding mobility to a unit with a 42'' threat range at AP -2 anyway?
You'd still find more damage out of rapid fire, though.
That's why I like auto bolt rifles for intercessors. They aren't ever really worse than the rapid fire option, but you're faster and can hit twice from further away.
They also benefit from the Aggressor's buff, making them especially worth considering if you plan on mixing Aggressors in with your Intercessors.
Yeah exactly.
I think it makes sense to have auto rifles in intergressor squads and standard rifles with heltercessors - which is my new favourite word. Have an inceptor, 5 intercessors and 4 aggressors/hellblasters in each squad.
To keep points down so that they can be used on SIA weapons elsewhere, I've started heavily considering dropping it to 1 Aggressor for the movement boost and sticking with just more Intercessors. Give up a ton of bolter shots and T5 majority, sure - but maximizing SIA is what makes DW different - can get basic bolters for cheaper elsewhere, and I think that type of squad is plenty survivable for its job of being a nuisance and clearing screens. I'll have to play and see if its as much fun as the other build I had lol.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/05/17 16:28:03
Skhmt wrote: Is 5 intercessor with stalker bolt rifles, 4 hellblasters with heavy plasma, and 1 aggressor worth the points?
In my opinion, no. I don't think the heavy versions of bolt rifles or plasma incinerators are as good as the rapid fire or assault versions. One marginally better shot is never as good as two shots. GW doesn't understand that really basic fact, so they charge more points for worse guns. Avoid.
On top of that you're paying 37 points for an aggressor just so the unit can move and shoot - which rapid fire guys could do for free - and you've got no inceptor so you can't fall back and shoot.
The reason I think 5 SBRs + an agressor might be worth it is for taking down non-vehicle hard targets, or even some vehicle targets with a +1 to wound strat in play.
the innate -2 on the SBR makes hellfire incredibly effective vs: (DPs, Tyranids, Some other choas beasties, Tau suits, certain necron units) because they wound well and can still deny the majority of a save, unlike BR/ABR which are mostly either/or.
vs vehicles, you can hit out to 42" with kraken or 30" with vengeance, apply the appropriate doctrine, and now you're wounding on 4s/rr1 and anything that gets through denies most of the save. not too bad for infantry weapons vs T7. Speaking from experience playing craftworlds, that's better chances than shuriken cannons have vs vehicles, and they do a lot of work already.
Sorry but I still don’t see any reason to take the heavy options over rapid fire. Trying to take down vehicles with expensive 1 shot, 1 damage S4 weapons will not succeed. There’s really no doubt or debate on that fact.
These guns would be viable if they were heavy 2. As it stands there’s no target that they are better against. There are lots of targets (orks, plaguebearers, wraiths, harlequins to name a few) where they are exactly half as good as assault or RF rifles, while actually being more expensive.
It’s good to look at uses for under-used stuff. You sometimes do find gems. This isn’t one.
Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough.
For DW, yes. I have seen assault be of value in other SM armies, particularly for mobile heavy infantry hunters, but with how easily it is for DW to wound things the assault incinerators end up with a more limited role. Better to have S8 like Primark says.
I think assault hellblasters are niche but very good. Run them with assault bolters, and a single aggressor & inceptor and you have a really high quality ground-unit that can move fast, take objectives, ignore CC tie ups and hurt every unit T7 and below. Paired with a dreadnought to trigger ancient's strat for rerolls and you have a very nice kill team tha can manage range, move from cover to cover, and burn down targets.
Skhmt wrote: Is 5 intercessor with stalker bolt rifles, 4 hellblasters with heavy plasma, and 1 aggressor worth the points?
In my opinion, no. I don't think the heavy versions of bolt rifles or plasma incinerators are as good as the rapid fire or assault versions. One marginally better shot is never as good as two shots. GW doesn't understand that really basic fact, so they charge more points for worse guns. Avoid.
On top of that you're paying 37 points for an aggressor just so the unit can move and shoot - which rapid fire guys could do for free - and you've got no inceptor so you can't fall back and shoot.
Going to echo exactly this. I know folks like stalkers (or maybe they just like the idea of stalkers), but with such a limited weight of fire they are not worth it at all.
Maybe they can be effective if you drop the hellblasters because what's the point of inflating the cost of this unit even more if you're using the Intercessors to target the same things you would normally want to throw the plasma at. Also ditch the Aggressor who will never shoot if you're trying to stay at max range anyway. Park the squad in cover and never ever move it, because honestly what's the point of adding mobility to a unit with a 42'' threat range at AP -2 anyway?
You'd still find more damage out of rapid fire, though.
That's why I like auto bolt rifles for intercessors. They aren't ever really worse than the rapid fire option, but you're faster and can hit twice from further away.
They also benefit from the Aggressor's buff, making them especially worth considering if you plan on mixing Aggressors in with your Intercessors.
Yeah exactly.
I think it makes sense to have auto rifles in intergressor squads and standard rifles with heltercessors - which is my new favourite word. Have an inceptor, 5 intercessors and 4 aggressors/hellblasters in each squad.
To keep points down so that they can be used on SIA weapons elsewhere, I've started heavily considering dropping it to 1 Aggressor for the movement boost and sticking with just more Intercessors. Give up a ton of bolter shots and T5 majority, sure - but maximizing SIA is what makes DW different - can get basic bolters for cheaper elsewhere, and I think that type of squad is plenty survivable for its job of being a nuisance and clearing screens. I'll have to play and see if its as much fun as the other build I had lol.
I'm really liking 5 intercessors/5 aggressors. The extra survivability against plasma is huge, especially since invulns are harder to set up for Primaris models. Maximizing SIA is great in concept, but if everyone is dead, are you really maximizing SIA?
Just as a case study, I had a game two days ago against DA Hellblasters. They would have been wounding on 2's, rerolling 1's, but instead were wounding on 3's, rerolling 1's. As a result, 3 aggressors lived to double shoot on my turn where none would have if I didn't have majority T5.
JNAProductions wrote: So, I made a Deathwatch and IG list. Mostly Deathwatch, pointwise. Find it here-I'd love to make it better.
I am strongly against the idea of ignoring SIA as a mechanic when it's by far one of the strongest things DW brings. Furthermore, I think there are far better sources of heavy bolter firepower than 16 point Veterans in the first place, especially when the stats and special rules they gain for their DW vet status (and price!) is being ignored. Could take heavy bolters with your AM and get a ton more shots and ablative wounds for the same price without largely ignoring what makes DW unique.
I see your plan here is to combat squad everything so you have a ton of heavy bolters in the backfield plugging away and a fast squad that is majority T5 that can fallback, shoot, and charge all in the same turn if necessary. The biggest issue I have with this, while it sounds neat, is the super inefficient use of DW stratagems. But I am intrigued - I can't see myself bringing 3 such units and combat-squading them, but I do see value in those special rules working together in general. I'd like to hear how they work if you don't mind sharing.
grouchoben wrote:I think assault hellblasters are niche but very good. Run them with assault bolters, and a single aggressor & inceptor and you have a really high quality ground-unit that can move fast, take objectives, ignore CC tie ups and hurt every unit T7 and below. Paired with a dreadnought to trigger ancient's strat for rerolls and you have a very nice kill team tha can manage range, move from cover to cover, and burn down targets.
I think assault hellblasters are niche but very good for other SM chapters, but for DW, special issue ammo encroaches a bit more on the role those assault plasma incinerators play. I'm not entirely sure they're all that useful when you can already wound anything not a vehicle on 2s, or you can approach their AP values with vengeance rounds (albeit with the RF bolt rifles). I'll need to play a bit with them to give it a shot - you may be right here and they're worth considering.
Skhmt wrote: Is 5 intercessor with stalker bolt rifles, 4 hellblasters with heavy plasma, and 1 aggressor worth the points?
In my opinion, no. I don't think the heavy versions of bolt rifles or plasma incinerators are as good as the rapid fire or assault versions. One marginally better shot is never as good as two shots. GW doesn't understand that really basic fact, so they charge more points for worse guns. Avoid.
On top of that you're paying 37 points for an aggressor just so the unit can move and shoot - which rapid fire guys could do for free - and you've got no inceptor so you can't fall back and shoot.
Going to echo exactly this. I know folks like stalkers (or maybe they just like the idea of stalkers), but with such a limited weight of fire they are not worth it at all.
Maybe they can be effective if you drop the hellblasters because what's the point of inflating the cost of this unit even more if you're using the Intercessors to target the same things you would normally want to throw the plasma at. Also ditch the Aggressor who will never shoot if you're trying to stay at max range anyway. Park the squad in cover and never ever move it, because honestly what's the point of adding mobility to a unit with a 42'' threat range at AP -2 anyway?
You'd still find more damage out of rapid fire, though.
That's why I like auto bolt rifles for intercessors. They aren't ever really worse than the rapid fire option, but you're faster and can hit twice from further away.
They also benefit from the Aggressor's buff, making them especially worth considering if you plan on mixing Aggressors in with your Intercessors.
Yeah exactly.
I think it makes sense to have auto rifles in intergressor squads and standard rifles with heltercessors - which is my new favourite word. Have an inceptor, 5 intercessors and 4 aggressors/hellblasters in each squad.
To keep points down so that they can be used on SIA weapons elsewhere, I've started heavily considering dropping it to 1 Aggressor for the movement boost and sticking with just more Intercessors. Give up a ton of bolter shots and T5 majority, sure - but maximizing SIA is what makes DW different - can get basic bolters for cheaper elsewhere, and I think that type of squad is plenty survivable for its job of being a nuisance and clearing screens. I'll have to play and see if its as much fun as the other build I had lol.
I'm really liking 5 intercessors/5 aggressors. The extra survivability against plasma is huge, especially since invulns are harder to set up for Primaris models. Maximizing SIA is great in concept, but if everyone is dead, are you really maximizing SIA?
Just as a case study, I had a game two days ago against DA Hellblasters. They would have been wounding on 2's, rerolling 1's, but instead were wounding on 3's, rerolling 1's. As a result, 3 aggressors lived to double shoot on my turn where none would have if I didn't have majority T5.
Well, plasma at range doesn't scare me - it's when they get up close and can rapid fire that I start to sweat. As I mentioned earlier on, I had a ton of success with the 5 Intercessors 5 Aggressors, but I'm just spitballing to see if there are ways I can maximize SIA more while also taking the target off this unit's back. I could then just spend the savings elsewhere on a cheap screen to avoid what tends to kill me the most - fast moving plasma/drop plasma. If they can't rapid fire, they are searching for another target or having a go with half the shots. I'm okay with that exchange.
But I think I'll just end up falling back on the majority T5 unit since it was just so much fun lol
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/17 19:27:36
If I run a relic Leviathan do I have to take a DWHS unit as well?
Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough.
Primark G wrote: If I run a relic Leviathan do I have to take a DWHS unit as well?
Yes you are required one other heavy support. You can always slot in another mortis dreadnought for more anti-tank which would not be a bad call. Or if you wanted to go cheap you could bring a rapier battery.
Thanks Tibs! I think I will take a quad launcher for pesky xenos that like to hide.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/17 19:30:19
Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough.
JNAProductions wrote: So, I made a Deathwatch and IG list. Mostly Deathwatch, pointwise. Find it here-I'd love to make it better.
I am strongly against the idea of ignoring SIA as a mechanic when it's by far one of the strongest things DW brings. Furthermore, I think there are far better sources of heavy bolter firepower than 16 point Veterans in the first place, especially when the stats and special rules they gain for their DW vet status (and price!) is being ignored. Could take heavy bolters with your AM and get a ton more shots and ablative wounds for the same price without largely ignoring what makes DW unique.
I see your plan here is to combat squad everything so you have a ton of heavy bolters in the backfield plugging away and a fast squad that is majority T5 that can fallback, shoot, and charge all in the same turn if necessary. The biggest issue I have with this, while it sounds neat, is the super inefficient use of DW stratagems. But I am intrigued - I can't see myself bringing 3 such units and combat-squading them, but I do see value in those special rules working together in general. I'd like to hear how they work if you don't mind sharing.
I was thinking about replacing the Heavy Bolters with Stalker Bolters instead. Think that'd be better?
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
JNAProductions wrote: So, I made a Deathwatch and IG list. Mostly Deathwatch, pointwise. Find it here-I'd love to make it better.
I am strongly against the idea of ignoring SIA as a mechanic when it's by far one of the strongest things DW brings. Furthermore, I think there are far better sources of heavy bolter firepower than 16 point Veterans in the first place, especially when the stats and special rules they gain for their DW vet status (and price!) is being ignored. Could take heavy bolters with your AM and get a ton more shots and ablative wounds for the same price without largely ignoring what makes DW unique.
I see your plan here is to combat squad everything so you have a ton of heavy bolters in the backfield plugging away and a fast squad that is majority T5 that can fallback, shoot, and charge all in the same turn if necessary. The biggest issue I have with this, while it sounds neat, is the super inefficient use of DW stratagems. But I am intrigued - I can't see myself bringing 3 such units and combat-squading them, but I do see value in those special rules working together in general. I'd like to hear how they work if you don't mind sharing.
I was thinking about replacing the Heavy Bolters with Stalker Bolters instead. Think that'd be better?
I think that would make them better at the job you want them to do, but this is still just a T4 3+ unit with 1 w models and limited mobility that seems like you're only bringing along because you want bikes that can fall back and shoot again (for whatever that's worth). At least with stalker pattern bolters, you can reach AP -3 at like 24'' with vengeance rounds - or stick with the AP -1 wounding on 2s, which is pretty valuable I think. Still not very mobile and still pretty easy to remove, but I see what you're trying to do and I think you might be able to mitigate those things based on what you tie up with your bikes etc.
I may have been a bit too harsh on the heavy bolter idea. Since they are of course the only marines in your force one or two gives you access to the stratagem, and that shouldn't really be ignored.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/05/17 20:20:02
JNAProductions wrote: So, I made a Deathwatch and IG list. Mostly Deathwatch, pointwise. Find it here-I'd love to make it better.
I am strongly against the idea of ignoring SIA as a mechanic when it's by far one of the strongest things DW brings. Furthermore, I think there are far better sources of heavy bolter firepower than 16 point Veterans in the first place, especially when the stats and special rules they gain for their DW vet status (and price!) is being ignored. Could take heavy bolters with your AM and get a ton more shots and ablative wounds for the same price without largely ignoring what makes DW unique.
I see your plan here is to combat squad everything so you have a ton of heavy bolters in the backfield plugging away and a fast squad that is majority T5 that can fallback, shoot, and charge all in the same turn if necessary. The biggest issue I have with this, while it sounds neat, is the super inefficient use of DW stratagems. But I am intrigued - I can't see myself bringing 3 such units and combat-squading them, but I do see value in those special rules working together in general. I'd like to hear how they work if you don't mind sharing.
grouchoben wrote:I think assault hellblasters are niche but very good. Run them with assault bolters, and a single aggressor & inceptor and you have a really high quality ground-unit that can move fast, take objectives, ignore CC tie ups and hurt every unit T7 and below. Paired with a dreadnought to trigger ancient's strat for rerolls and you have a very nice kill team tha can manage range, move from cover to cover, and burn down targets.
I think assault hellblasters are niche but very good for other SM chapters, but for DW, special issue ammo encroaches a bit more on the role those assault plasma incinerators play. I'm not entirely sure they're all that useful when you can already wound anything not a vehicle on 2s, or you can approach their AP values with vengeance rounds (albeit with the RF bolt rifles). I'll need to play a bit with them to give it a shot - you may be right here and they're worth considering.
Skhmt wrote: Is 5 intercessor with stalker bolt rifles, 4 hellblasters with heavy plasma, and 1 aggressor worth the points?
In my opinion, no. I don't think the heavy versions of bolt rifles or plasma incinerators are as good as the rapid fire or assault versions. One marginally better shot is never as good as two shots. GW doesn't understand that really basic fact, so they charge more points for worse guns. Avoid.
On top of that you're paying 37 points for an aggressor just so the unit can move and shoot - which rapid fire guys could do for free - and you've got no inceptor so you can't fall back and shoot.
Going to echo exactly this. I know folks like stalkers (or maybe they just like the idea of stalkers), but with such a limited weight of fire they are not worth it at all.
Maybe they can be effective if you drop the hellblasters because what's the point of inflating the cost of this unit even more if you're using the Intercessors to target the same things you would normally want to throw the plasma at. Also ditch the Aggressor who will never shoot if you're trying to stay at max range anyway. Park the squad in cover and never ever move it, because honestly what's the point of adding mobility to a unit with a 42'' threat range at AP -2 anyway?
You'd still find more damage out of rapid fire, though.
That's why I like auto bolt rifles for intercessors. They aren't ever really worse than the rapid fire option, but you're faster and can hit twice from further away.
They also benefit from the Aggressor's buff, making them especially worth considering if you plan on mixing Aggressors in with your Intercessors.
Yeah exactly.
I think it makes sense to have auto rifles in intergressor squads and standard rifles with heltercessors - which is my new favourite word. Have an inceptor, 5 intercessors and 4 aggressors/hellblasters in each squad.
To keep points down so that they can be used on SIA weapons elsewhere, I've started heavily considering dropping it to 1 Aggressor for the movement boost and sticking with just more Intercessors. Give up a ton of bolter shots and T5 majority, sure - but maximizing SIA is what makes DW different - can get basic bolters for cheaper elsewhere, and I think that type of squad is plenty survivable for its job of being a nuisance and clearing screens. I'll have to play and see if its as much fun as the other build I had lol.
I'm really liking 5 intercessors/5 aggressors. The extra survivability against plasma is huge, especially since invulns are harder to set up for Primaris models. Maximizing SIA is great in concept, but if everyone is dead, are you really maximizing SIA?
Just as a case study, I had a game two days ago against DA Hellblasters. They would have been wounding on 2's, rerolling 1's, but instead were wounding on 3's, rerolling 1's. As a result, 3 aggressors lived to double shoot on my turn where none would have if I didn't have majority T5.
Well, plasma at range doesn't scare me - it's when they get up close and can rapid fire that I start to sweat. As I mentioned earlier on, I had a ton of success with the 5 Intercessors 5 Aggressors, but I'm just spitballing to see if there are ways I can maximize SIA more while also taking the target off this unit's back. I could then just spend the savings elsewhere on a cheap screen to avoid what tends to kill me the most - fast moving plasma/drop plasma. If they can't rapid fire, they are searching for another target or having a go with half the shots. I'm okay with that exchange.
But I think I'll just end up falling back on the majority T5 unit since it was just so much fun lol
I do think that's a good unit. I think it can be massively improved by replacing one of the aggressors with an inceptor though. That ability to fall back and shoot is immense for a 300 point unit - especially one that functions at close range. And you can also use him to get assaults off, by having him bound forward to the edge of coherency. Finally, an inceptor actually has very decent firepower for his price - especially with 9 meatshields.
I do think that's a good unit. I think it can be massively improved by replacing one of the aggressors with an inceptor though. That ability to fall back and shoot is immense for a 300 point unit - especially one that functions at close range. And you can also use him to get assaults off, by having him bound forward to the edge of coherency. Finally, an inceptor actually has very decent firepower for his price - especially with 9 meatshields.
Sorry, I misspoke. The inceptor was included when I played. For the very reasons you mentioned. The unit didn't get charged, so sadly his bonus was wasted, but you can never discount assault bolters - though I was thinking I should consider giving him some oomph with plasma instead. We'll see..
10 Ratlings are 90 points, not 70. Also, they are trash. Your entire AT firepower is four Lascannons. Like, what the heck are you going to do vs even three Leman Russes?
You are also burning up a lot of points trying to make your sacrificial screening units good at close combat, which even with Straken, the Catachan trait, and a Priest, they are not. Also, forty Guardsmen get picked up in a single round of shooting. You're going to get almost no return on the CC buffs you've invested in.
You have no psychic defense.
You have an okay amount of anti horde with the bikes, but not enough to deal with really big hordes like 90+ Boyz or cultists.
Suggestions. Go Cadian and remove the Lascannons from the infantry. Their purpose is to die and hold backfield objectives.
Drop all but one Heavy Bolter on your kill teams. Keep it around mostly for the Stratagem. Drop the Ratlings.
Use all the saved points to get some credible AT in your list, either from the DW side or the Guard side.
You need to look at what is the reason for DW in the list. ATM your army looks hodge podge. Your guard seem to want to be screens but not screens cause have expensive heavy weapons and snipers and you have a priest etc? Look at your DW characters: You have taken dominus aegis (so want to stand still, yet your units don't have awesome enough fire power to stand still a lot and you prob need your DW to take forward objectives, so will be moving).
You have put storm shields on your Vanguard vets? (they are the guys that let you fall back and still shoot) you want S.S on your cheaper vets. I am unsure why you have taken so many bikers? Bikes are not that good. At max I run 1 biker and 1 Vanguard (maybe a termie etc, all depends on my goal for the unit), rest are all vets. Why? cause vets can give hit if need hit (shooting and somewhat melee) and be a meat shield if need. A bike is 29pts (25+twin bolt), 2x vet with Boltguns & Chainswords is 34 (in a unit, more attacks, better survive against multi-damage weapons, T5 won't matter etc and can tailor a Vet to what need. In your case want longer range shooting...is crazy). A vanguard is way better for a kill team in viability than a biker (the kill team strength is shooting with ok melee as a bonus).
I think you should rethink what you want each unit to do and what you want your DW to do.
If want a fire support DW unit (not a move and grab an objective etc), one that I run a lot and has done well is (not saying take but if want a DW fire support unit). This is one a I have taken to great effect:
Reasons:
1. Never take 10 man units, some tourneys give points for killing 10 man units etc.
2. Has a good unit range.
3. The storm shields and plebs means some ok meat shields.
4. The Vanguard may seem a waste but for 19pts if get deep struck against etc can fall back and still shoot.
5. The termie is ok (expensive) but can be last model removed (with vanguard and the vet missile), fearless so.
6. The black shield gives an extra attack, but unit must heroic intervine. If the enemy is that close you want to pile in, can fall back on your turn cause have vanguard vet.
7. I run all my sergs with xeno (for fluff) would drop it if going pts efficient.
However, this is just a fire support unit, if want a mid field camper/taker or a forward assault unit (prob what you need if re-configure your guard) totally different.
Hope helps
SC
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/05/18 10:43:06
14k Generic Space Marine Chapters 20k Deathwatch 10k Sisters of Battle 3k Inquisition 4k Grey Knights 5k Imperial Guard 4k Harlequins 8k Tau
I second the psychic defense issue. While the AM screen is meant to eat up those smites before it hits your 20+ ppmDW units, it's important to have something that can protect against other psychic threats or deny some of your opponent's buffs. One librarian or a couple primaris psykers should be a good start.
Agreed on removing the lascannons from the infantry squads, but I disagree on the infantry squad use and regiment. This list includes DW with almost all heavy weapons that are there to reach out and touch things from range - they should be the ones to hold backfield objectives. The infantry should be used to screen out deep strikers, bubblewrap the DW guys in the back, push back rapid fire high damage weapons so they're less effective against the marines, eat smites from psykers all day long, and push back big blob melee units so that they can be contained easier.
Since the list seems focused on trying to maximize the combat squad ability by including obsec bikers that can fallback, shoot, and charge back in - I don't see why the DW backline couldn't be mostly immobile if bubble-wrapped sufficiently. I'm not gonna say the combat squad idea is the best way to go, but with that in mind I think the suggestions in the two comments above are a great starting point to tweaking this list to be a bit more effective while trying to keep the vision you were trying to go for in the first place.
10 Ratlings are 90 points, not 70. Also, they are trash. Your entire AT firepower is four Lascannons. Like, what the heck are you going to do vs even three Leman Russes?
You are also burning up a lot of points trying to make your sacrificial screening units good at close combat, which even with Straken, the Catachan trait, and a Priest, they are not. Also, forty Guardsmen get picked up in a single round of shooting. You're going to get almost no return on the CC buffs you've invested in.
You have no psychic defense.
You have an okay amount of anti horde with the bikes, but not enough to deal with really big hordes like 90+ Boyz or cultists.
Suggestions. Go Cadian and remove the Lascannons from the infantry. Their purpose is to die and hold backfield objectives.
Drop all but one Heavy Bolter on your kill teams. Keep it around mostly for the Stratagem. Drop the Ratlings.
Use all the saved points to get some credible AT in your list, either from the DW side or the Guard side.
Leman Russes should probably be punched in general, since shooting them with marines is typically folly in my experience. You'll never win that shoot out.
I think you should rethink what you want each unit to do and what you want your DW to do.
If want a fire support DW unit (not a move and grab an objective etc), one that I run a lot and has done well is (not saying take but if want a DW fire support unit). This is one a I have taken to great effect:
I think the poster HAS thought about what they want the DW to do, that's why they're using combat squads to achieve both roles. Bikes and VV break off of each squad and now you have three swift Obsec units to move and grab objectives while the three fire support veterans staying behind. Sure, not many ablative wounds for either squads, but you have 3 individual squads for both roles, giving you a pretty decent amount of tactical flexibility. I personally dislike it because I am a fan of larger units for stratagems, and thus would kit these guys out completely differently, but the vision the list builder has is clear.
I would also like to point out that most tournaments (particularly ITC format ones) don't give points for killing 10 man units - they do it for 10 MODEL units. That's an important distinction. It means you can take a 10 man infantry squad but add in a heavy weapon team like a mortar to deny your opponent these points. Its 10 men, but 9 models. As such, don't be afraid of adding a 10 man Vet squad into your list if you intend to combat squad it at deployment.
Leman Russes should probably be punched in general, since shooting them with marines is typically folly in my experience. You'll never win that shoot out.
We absolutely agree here.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/18 14:11:25
This 10 model unit thing in ITC tournaments is really weird - as is the fact you can get around it by putting a mortar in your unit. UK tournaments don't seem to use this convention so far as I've seen. What is it meant to achieve?
I wouldn't bother with IG for smite protection. Smite spam is kind of dead anyway, and intercessors (even DW ones) are only 10ppw. That's not as cheap as guardsmen of course, but it's not so expensive that you really need to worry about it. In most cases, smiting intercessors isn't particularly efficient.
Meanwhile your expensive stuff, like bikers, is likely to overtake your screens anyway - so there's not a lot you can do to help them - other than shoot the psykers.
Of course, IG are still potentially a good add on for deathwatch - as they are for any imperial army. Leman Russ, Basilisks and Manticores give you the heavy firepower that you need. Infantry squads (and mortar HWTs) can sit on back field objectives. Scout sentinels can scout. An army based around a Deathwatch battalion and an IG brigade - if affordable - could be good. Otherwise an IG spearhead, or potentially even a super heavy, could be useful. The superheavy should probably be tallarn so it can start off board.
Little thought that ran through my friend's head and I will be testing it this weekend.
5 x Vets with Storm Bolter/Storm Shield (SWAT style)
1 x Bike
4 x Vanguard Vets (PS/SS, PA/SS. HTH, Dual Claws)
Move forward with plenty of firepower and protection.
At the last moment, use the stratagem to combat squad, detach the bike and Vanguard and charge. With the bike you keep the option to fall back, shoot with the first squad and charge again.
Storm Bolters are cheap and double a Vet's firepower.
I think you should rethink what you want each unit to do and what you want your DW to do.
If want a fire support DW unit (not a move and grab an objective etc), one that I run a lot and has done well is (not saying take but if want a DW fire support unit). This is one a I have taken to great effect:
I think the poster HAS thought about what they want the DW to do, that's why they're using combat squads to achieve both roles. Bikes and VV break off of each squad and now you have three swift Obsec units to move and grab objectives while the three fire support veterans staying behind. Sure, not many ablative wounds for either squads, but you have 3 individual squads for both roles, giving you a pretty decent amount of tactical flexibility. I personally dislike it because I am a fan of larger units for stratagems, and thus would kit these guys out completely differently, but the vision the list builder has is clear.
I would also like to point out that most tournaments (particularly ITC format ones) don't give points for killing 10 man units - they do it for 10 MODEL units. That's an important distinction. It means you can take a 10 man infantry squad but add in a heavy weapon team like a mortar to deny your opponent these points. Its 10 men, but 9 models. As such, don't be afraid of adding a 10 man Vet squad into your list if you intend to combat squad it at deployment.
Leman Russes should probably be punched in general, since shooting them with marines is typically folly in my experience. You'll never win that shoot out.
We absolutely agree here.
IDK about the 10 man units thing. I find it safer to always make them 9 man max so don't have to debate anything. The combat squad? why combat squad when you are just losing Sergs and BS? (which are free), if want the point/extra unit/ability just make a 5 man and add a VV or a biker they can be the last to die so can move max when need? I see why it maybe a thing, but I think the negative out weights the positive. Moreover, the DW die like marines so current setup is moot.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Erik_Morkai wrote: Little thought that ran through my friend's head and I will be testing it this weekend.
5 x Vets with Storm Bolter/Storm Shield (SWAT style)
1 x Bike
4 x Vanguard Vets (PS/SS, PA/SS. HTH, Dual Claws)
Move forward with plenty of firepower and protection.
At the last moment, use the stratagem to combat squad, detach the bike and Vanguard and charge. With the bike you keep the option to fall back, shoot with the first squad and charge again.
Storm Bolters are cheap and double a Vet's firepower.
IDK if storm bolters are cheap (makes them 20ppm above 17 and with SS is 25) is a 286pts unit approx (there is alot better shooting/melee units for DW at that points cost) but could be awesome let us know how it goes.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/05/18 16:13:40
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IDK about the 10 man units thing. I find it safer to always make them 9 man max so don't have to debate anything. The combat squad? why combat squad when you are just losing Sergs and BS? (which are free), if want the point/extra unit/ability just make a 5 man and add a VV or a biker they can be the last to die so can move max when need? I see why it maybe a thing, but I think the negative out weights the positive. Moreover, the DW die like marines so current setup is moot.
Taking them as troops grants the bikers objective secured, which can be the difference between victory and defeat. Its much more important IMHO that a free sergeant.
IDK about the 10 man units thing. I find it safer to always make them 9 man max so don't have to debate anything. The combat squad? why combat squad when you are just losing Sergs and BS? (which are free), if want the point/extra unit/ability just make a 5 man and add a VV or a biker they can be the last to die so can move max when need? I see why it maybe a thing, but I think the negative out weights the positive. Moreover, the DW die like marines so current setup is moot.
Taking them as troops grants the bikers objective secured, which can be the difference between victory and defeat. Its much more important IMHO that a free sergeant.
I ment taking a vet squad + a bike (which is crazy just take a vet + a vanguard tbh, but personal opinion)
Automatically Appended Next Post: I have enough models that I could play test both, but I can see the bikes are gunna fail so not gunna bother. But each to own. I do hope goes well.
To the guy running quad mortars.... I also have like 3 quad mortars I am gunna email them to see if the soldiers manning them get SIA on their Bolt pistols (don't think stats will go to A2 and Ld8)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/18 16:31:30
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