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brother_b wrote:
Nothing out and out OP looking from the eldar previews.

No double firing tanks, no hordes of cheap troops with multiple orders boosting their efficiency, only one craftworld with a "commmissar" trait (unlike IG where everybody can bring a commissar), no piles of no-line-of-sight firing weapons (with -3 ap for some just because), no ability to re-roll dice for determining heavy weapon shots, looks like only 1 craftworld gets re-rolls of 1 (unlike guard that have that as a doctrine or order), there are no ogre bodyguards with the ability to get buffed to ungodly saving throws coupled with the ability to take hits for T8 tank commanders.

None of that.

So yeah, guard still looking very, very tough. I don't care about tourneys as much. I care about gaming at the game store or with friends. How is a regular army supposed to compete with guard when they've got so many tools?

Maybe thats a question for the tactics forum.

....are we judging relative strength of the craftworld rules package by comparing the guard Order+Warlord+Relic+stratagem+trait vs just the traits from the Eldar dex?

I play both, so before I get being accused of being a "guard shill" I have been looking out for good combos from the eldar dex so far.

We do have:

1) A psychic power that wounds based on leadership coupled with the ability to extremely easily lower a unit's leadership by 4 (Hemlock now buffed to -2 aura, it can take the psychic power for an additional -1 right on the same plane, add in super cheap access to Dark Eldar phantasm launchers for another -1 from just a single passed to-hit roll on D3 dice). That seems pretty potent if you ask me.

2) they are the first army that has the -1 to hit stratagem that can easily stack with additonal -1s to hit. Eldar flyers will be -2 to hit base, and they have access to Conceal for a -2 to hit aura.

The real strength of the eldar codex is going to rely on the points adjustments, which we don't yet know, and the way it interacts with the highly competitive Ynnari rules, which stratagems and tactics if any Ynnari will get access to thru Eldar.

Just comparing the traits? Eldar seem to have a simply better version of Valhalla in the form of Iyanden, the -1 to hit trait which we know is consistently a top dog, and a better version of iron Hands and Black Templars. Can't speak to Biel-Tan until we see whether Shuriken wielding units are better now, currently they're almost all overcosted (DAs, Guardians, Windriders, etc). The only other things we know are that Hemlocks (one of the best units already) is getting multiple buffs with access to more powers, -2LD instead of -1LD and probable access to the powerful -1 to hit tactic, and all the psychic powers we've seen so far have been good to awesome. Stratagems haven't looked amazing yet, but we've only seen...four, out of what we normally see which is like 12-15. Remember that we didn't get to see Take Cover until the codex leaked for Guard, so there could be something great CP-wise waiting in the wings for Eldar that we just haven't spotted yet.

brother_b wrote:
Nothing out and out OP looking from the eldar previews.

No double firing tanks, no hordes of cheap troops with multiple orders boosting their efficiency, only one craftworld with a "commmissar" trait (unlike IG where everybody can bring a commissar), no piles of no-line-of-sight firing weapons (with -3 ap for some just because), no ability to re-roll dice for determining heavy weapon shots, looks like only 1 craftworld gets re-rolls of 1 (unlike guard that have that as a doctrine or order), there are no ogre bodyguards with the ability to get buffed to ungodly saving throws coupled with the ability to take hits for T8 tank commanders.

None of that.

So yeah, guard still looking very, very tough. I don't care about tourneys as much. I care about gaming at the game store or with friends. How is a regular army supposed to compete with guard when they've got so many tools?

Maybe thats a question for the tactics forum.

LOL Fire Prisms can fire twice!

Well, we now know the value of at least one points change: Rangers went from 20 points to 12. Enough points to buy an extra Guardian for every Ranger you had in your list.

 ross-128 wrote:
Well, we now know the value of at least one points change: Rangers went from 20 points to 12. Enough points to buy an extra Guardian for every Ranger you had in your list.

That's the actual cost? After weapons? I'm serious here because I would be up a MOON if that was the case.

I have 20 rangers that haven't seen play since 4th edition!

 ross-128 wrote:
Well, we now know the value of at least one points change: Rangers went from 20 points to 12. Enough points to buy an extra Guardian for every Ranger you had in your list.

Where'd you pick that up from? My eldar player is going to be ecstatic. Like, literally ecstatic. He gets creepy weird about rangers.

wow a 40% points decrease omg eldar op someone rename the thread title.

Rangers op.

Fire prisms can fire twice? Op.

Eldar get access to commissar effects without paying points? OP.

Too op. How can marines possibly table them now? 8th ed is ruined.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
Well, we now know the value of at least one points change: Rangers went from 20 points to 12. Enough points to buy an extra Guardian for every Ranger you had in your list.

That's the actual cost? After weapons? I'm serious here because I would be up a MOON if that was the case.

I have 20 rangers that haven't seen play since 4th edition!

20 is the current cost of the model before weapons in the Index, and the preview specifically says "from 20 to 12", so I'm going to assume that 12 is also the cost of the model before weapons.

However, the Ranger Long Rifle and Shuriken Pistol both cost 0 points. So I don't think Rangers come with anything that increases their cost.

Edit: here's the link https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/10/20/craftworld-focus-alaitoc-oct-20gw-homepage-post-3/

This is also where you can see the fire prism firing twice (it basically got Grinding Advance), and the ability to put 7th ed. Invisibility on Rangers. Though since it's an Alaitoc strategem and Alaitoc Rangers are already -2 to hit baseline, you'll pretty much only have to use it against BS3+ or to negate enemy +1s.

I just screeched so hard that all the dogs within the building are now bleeding out the ear and anus.

My friend will be happy too since the Fire Prism is one of this fav tanks.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Too op. How can marines possibly table them now? 8th ed is ruined.

I understand why that's tempting. I wanted to do something similar. Lets be better than that though.

But wait, there's more, a group of fire prisms can also give each other an imitation of Rowboat's aura for 1CP, while also turning themselves into artillery pieces.

Looks like when the Eldar codex drops, the usual suspects might go back to whining about Eldar, IG will be forgotten, and 40k will be back to business as usual. And then after enough whining one of the Marine sub-factions will probably get a codex that puts them on par with Eldar. :p

Considering most of the buffed stuff are the stuff people shunned last edition, we might instead get eldar players crying that GW screwed them last edition while claiming their codex is still UP, while people give them the line they've been giving IG this entire time.

And I won't give two gaks about it as I bring enough snipers to turn everything into swiss cheese.

 daedalus wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Too op. How can marines possibly table them now? 8th ed is ruined.

I understand why that's tempting. I wanted to do something similar. Lets be better than that though.

i give it two days before the usual suspects make that thread.

Unless Fire Prisms dropped 20-30 points you guys can keep having your pity party.

 Quickjager wrote:
Unless Fire Prisms dropped 20-30 points you guys can keep having your pity party.

I'd say somewhere between 10-20 would be balanced enough I'd expect to see them willingly fielded again by the Eldar guys I know. I think 20-30 I'd start expecting to see three a list.

I just played a 1000 pt. with SM against IG. My opponent had 7 psykers and he almost tabled me with smite. I lost a redemptor dreadnought in one turn to 5 or 6 smites. One psyker is 28 pts. He can roll 2d6, smite is only a 5 and there is nothing you can do against it, except being more than 18" away. I had no psyker, and even if i had one he would only be able to deny the witch once. Anyone saying IG is not OP has not playing against smite spam.

Which unit can do D3 mortal wounds, at a chance of 83% for 28 points with almost nothing to do against it, and a small chance of d6 mortal wounds ??

Force stave is 12 points and as far as I know, mandatory. I think you got cheated.

p5freak wrote:
I just played a 1000 pt. with SM against IG. My opponent had 7 psykers and he almost tabled me with smite. I lost a redemptor dreadnought in one turn to 5 or 6 smites. One psyker is 28 pts. He can roll 2d6, smite is only a 5 and there is nothing you can do against it, except being more than 18" away. I had no psyker, and even if i had one he would only be able to deny the witch once. Anyone saying IG is not OP has not playing against smite spam.

Which unit can do D3 mortal wounds, at a chance of 83% for 28 points with almost nothing to do against it, and a small chance of d6 mortal wounds ??

Primaris psykers are 40pts IIRC. Astropaths are cheaper, but get a single D6 to cast their smites on. So, one of those two things you guys got wrong.

Also, the thing you can do about Smite is:

1) Have a psyker nearby to deny
2) Have another unit be closer to the enemy than the intended target, Smite can only hit the closest target within 18". Rhinos are good for this.

From a different perspective: If you lost a dreadnought in one turn to 280 points worth of overcharged plasma guns, would you be as annoyed? It's a similar weapon to smite with a similar range band and intended target. That's 14 Marines with plasma guns.

daedalus wrote:Force stave is 12 points and as far as I know, mandatory. I think you got cheated.

Well, i looked the psyker up in the AM codex in the point list and it says 28 pts. there. I didnt know he had a stave, my fault. The guy i played against is very experienced, i dont think he got it wrong.

the_scotsman wrote:

Primaris psykers are 40pts IIRC. Astropaths are cheaper, but get a single D6 to cast their smites on. So, one of those two things you guys got wrong.

Also, the thing you can do about Smite is:

1) Have a psyker nearby to deny
2) Have another unit be closer to the enemy than the intended target, Smite can only hit the closest target within 18". Rhinos are good for this.

I got it wrong with the 28 pts. Anyway, one psyker can only deny one smite, he had seven psykers. He also smited my razorback, the lascan and RL infantry finished my razorback off.

the_scotsman wrote:
From a different perspective: If you lost a dreadnought in one turn to 280 points worth of overcharged plasma guns, would you be as annoyed? It's a similar weapon to smite with a similar range band and intended target. That's 14 Marines with plasma guns.

Its not the same. First you have to make 14 hit rolls with the marines. Hitting on 3s means you fail 5. Thats 9 hits remaining. From these 9 hits you have to wound on a 3 or 4, depending on whether you overcharged or not. If you didnt overcharge you wound on 4, which means 5 successful wounds, i may save 1, i lose 4 wounds. That doesnt kill a redemptor. Even with overcharge its 6, i save one, lose 10 wounds. Badly hurt, but not dead.
Against plasma you have an armor save, or an invuln save. You dont have any of these against smite.

A psyker only needs to make a single roll with 2 dice, and he needs a 5. The chance of succeeding is pretty high, like 2+ on a D6. The psykers were shielded by chimeras and inf squads, no chance to shoot them. Marines i could have easily shot, no characters.

Anyway, which unit in the game can deal d3 mortal wounds at a 83% success chance, for 40 pts., without any armor or invuln sv against it ?

Primaris Psykers are really good. There've been discussions about smite spam lists in various tactica threads using them, astropaths, and GKSS for troops. It's admittedly one of the cheesier things you can do, particularly at a low point level*.

Far as I know, they're the cheapest unit that gets real smite. Next up is inquisitors at 55 points. Current Warlocks get a babysmite at 38 points IIRC, with no one knowing how that'll look when the Codex drops.

Do you remember what the rest of his list looked like? At 1000 points, a max of 2 detachments is recommended per page 214 of the rulebook. I'm not saying he didn't, but I'm curious to know if he fit his list into that recommendation.

* Low point levels are notoriously easy to create massively imbalanced games. See also 1000 point Land Raider or Stormraven lists. Not the same, but similar.

He had 2 HWT, one with lascans, one with RL in cover. A company commander (i think) who gave orders, to those HWT. 3 chimeras and 1 taurox. The chimeras were carrying an infantry squad and 2 psykers. The taurox was carrying 1 psyker. And he had 1 LRBT.

If the psykers were all hanging out in transports, how were you getting hit with so much Smite? Can't cast powers when embarked, like.

Of course they disembarked, and were shielded by the chimeras and inf squads.

Wow, sounds like Marines need more chaff.

You have as much control as your opponent over what smite hits. Screen with scouts, or tacticals, or whatever you want.

p5freak wrote:
He had 2 HWT, one with lascans, one with RL in cover. A company commander (i think) who gave orders, to those HWT. 3 chimeras and 1 taurox. The chimeras were carrying an infantry squad and 2 psykers. The taurox was carrying 1 psyker. And he had 1 LRBT.

Hrm. I didn't put special weapons on anything except the heavy weapons squads. I hit 975 before I added the LRBT.

I feel like the only SM list I would expect to be able to counter that at 1000 points would be a rhino rush or some variation on lascan/assbacks, but I'm not sure what either of those would look like at that point value. Something with a bunch of relatively sacrificial infantry. I'm starting to feel like a broken record.

Regardless, as Unit1126 said, you have some control over what those smites are hitting, and they're really the only thing in that list (barring weapons hidden somewhere) that I'd be genuinely worried about. I think you needed something between the enemy and your redemptor.

We talked, and he did make a mistake. He counted only 28 pts for a psyker, not 40.

p5freak wrote:
We talked, and he did make a mistake. He counted only 28 pts for a psyker, not 40.

That stuff is so easy to do with the way GW chose to cost things out, it's infuriating. Especially when there's no consistency to it, sometimes weapons or gear inherent to a unit is built into their cost and they buy it for 0 points, other times it's not. It's super easy to miss or forget stuff, particularly when it's not for wargear you're ever really going to use but comes with the model anyway.

Well, I've seen an AM army doing very well, yesterday.
Baneblade, 3x 30 Conscripts, 4x Leman Russ - 2000 pts.
Very shooty and hard to defeat if played right.
The Marine army got almost tabled.

Not sure how my Eldar would do against this army?

p5freak wrote:
I just played a 1000 pt. with SM against IG. My opponent had 7 psykers and he almost tabled me with smite. I lost a redemptor dreadnought in one turn to 5 or 6 smites. One psyker is 28 pts. He can roll 2d6, smite is only a 5 and there is nothing you can do against it, except being more than 18" away. I had no psyker, and even if i had one he would only be able to deny the witch once. Anyone saying IG is not OP has not playing against smite spam.

Which unit can do D3 mortal wounds, at a chance of 83% for 28 points with almost nothing to do against it, and a small chance of d6 mortal wounds ??

Culexus Assassin. Bam, all those smites go to waste as long as he's the closest target. Then shoot them to death with your D6 STR 5 AP-4 that ignores the character restriction when targeting psykers. Now what gets really fun is when you fight a Chaos player with 5+ Malefic Lords, who cost 10 points less, have a 4+ invuln, and go super saiyan whenever they perils. The Culexus can't hurt them reliably because of their invuln but at least he stops most of their damage output. Still, 85 points is pretty cheap as far as anti psyker insurance goes.

Culexus is anti psyker, but otherwise pretty useless. He cannot target non psyker characters. One culexus wouldnt do much against 7 psykers. They have 3 wounds each. He is probably going to kill one per turn, but probably wouldnt live long enough to kill 2-3 psykers.

Did anyone try to use mordian iron guard gunlines? Isnt them quite insane?

Overwatch on a 4+, and ability to produce something like 90+ shots from ten men guardsmen squard (if you try this trick on 30 men conscript blob, then your opponent can just remove a targeted unit off the table as casuality), thanks to their stratagem "Volley Fire", espechially if you combine it with Forge World's Defensive Searchlight

And lets not speak about how this glorious stratagem works on plasma command squards... this annihilates your friendship with your friends faster then said command squards vaporize your friends' landraider/bainblade/terminators/characters (thx to mordian order)/etc