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EricDominus wrote:
Did anyone try to use mordian iron guard gunlines? Isnt them quite insane?

Overwatch on a 4+, and ability to produce something like 90+ shots from ten men guardsmen squard (if you try this trick on 30 men conscript blob, then your opponent can just remove a targeted unit off the table as casuality), thanks to their stratagem "Volley Fire", espechially if you combine it with Forge World's Defensive Searchlight

And lets not speak about how this glorious stratagem works on plasma command squards... this annihilates your friendship with your friends faster then said command squards vaporize your friends' landraider/bainblade/terminators/characters (thx to mordian order)/etc

How are you getting 90+? Even with FRFSRF and somehow getting all 40 shots to benefit from Volley Fire you max at 80 from a ten man squad. With the searchlight you're only getting, on average, ~13.2 additional shots from Volley Fire and FRFSRF with an all-lasgun 10-man Infantry squad.

And a bit harder to get a Command Squad into rapid fire range of those units you listed - 4 T3 Sv5+ models aren't the most durable. Can run them up in a Chimera or Taurox, of course, or drop them out of a Valk but now you're adding to their cost for what's already a one-shot unit.

GhostRecon wrote:

EricDominus wrote:
Did anyone try to use mordian iron guard gunlines? Isnt them quite insane?

Overwatch on a 4+, and ability to produce something like 90+ shots from ten men guardsmen squard (if you try this trick on 30 men conscript blob, then your opponent can just remove a targeted unit off the table as casuality), thanks to their stratagem "Volley Fire", espechially if you combine it with Forge World's Defensive Searchlight

And lets not speak about how this glorious stratagem works on plasma command squards... this annihilates your friendship with your friends faster then said command squards vaporize your friends' landraider/bainblade/terminators/characters (thx to mordian order)/etc

How are you getting 90+? Even with FRFSRF and somehow getting all 40 shots to benefit from Volley Fire you max at 80 from a ten man squad. With the searchlight you're only getting, on average, ~13.2 additional shots from Volley Fire and FRFSRF with an all-lasgun 10-man Infantry squad.

And a bit harder to get a Command Squad into rapid fire range of those units you listed - 4 T3 Sv5+ models aren't the most durable. Can run them up in a Chimera or Taurox, of course, or drop them out of a Valk but now you're adding to their cost for what's already a one-shot unit.

I recommend you re-read stratagem's wording. It's not "extra shots", as in Storm Troopers Doctrine, it's literally "shoot at the same target with the same weapon". So, if you shoot 1 lasgun under FRFSRF in rapid fire range and roll 6+ (5+ with searchlight) you shoot your rapid fire 2 lasgun all over again.

And yes, about wording again, it clearly says "EACH TIME YOU ROLL 6+ to hit". So, if you roll, lets say, two 5s and a 6 (what a filthy lucker) been under searchlight's buff, you shoot with the same weapon (with the same weapon profile, for example Rapid Fire 2) 3 more times (e.g. 12 MOAR shots)

EricDominus wrote:

GhostRecon wrote:

EricDominus wrote:
Did anyone try to use mordian iron guard gunlines? Isnt them quite insane?

Overwatch on a 4+, and ability to produce something like 90+ shots from ten men guardsmen squard (if you try this trick on 30 men conscript blob, then your opponent can just remove a targeted unit off the table as casuality), thanks to their stratagem "Volley Fire", espechially if you combine it with Forge World's Defensive Searchlight

And lets not speak about how this glorious stratagem works on plasma command squards... this annihilates your friendship with your friends faster then said command squards vaporize your friends' landraider/bainblade/terminators/characters (thx to mordian order)/etc

How are you getting 90+? Even with FRFSRF and somehow getting all 40 shots to benefit from Volley Fire you max at 80 from a ten man squad. With the searchlight you're only getting, on average, ~13.2 additional shots from Volley Fire and FRFSRF with an all-lasgun 10-man Infantry squad.

And a bit harder to get a Command Squad into rapid fire range of those units you listed - 4 T3 Sv5+ models aren't the most durable. Can run them up in a Chimera or Taurox, of course, or drop them out of a Valk but now you're adding to their cost for what's already a one-shot unit.

I recommend you re-read stratagem's wording. It's not "extra shots", as in Storm Troopers Doctrine, it's literally "shoot at the same target with the same weapon". So, if you shoot 1 lasgun under FRFSRF in rapid fire range and roll 6+ (5+ with searchlight) you shoot your rapid fire 2 lasgun all over again.

And yes, about wording again, it clearly says "EACH TIME YOU ROLL 6+ to hit". So, if you roll, lets say, two 5s and a 6 (what a filthy lucker) been under searchlight's buff, you shoot with the same weapon (with the same weapon profile, for example Rapid Fire 2) 3 more times (e.g. 12 MOAR shots)

Yes. Yes. Please. More. More. I WANT MOAR

MOAR is always good

p5freak wrote:

daedalus wrote:Force stave is 12 points and as far as I know, mandatory. I think you got cheated.

Well, i looked the psyker up in the AM codex in the point list and it says 28 pts. there. I didnt know he had a stave, my fault. The guy i played against is very experienced, i dont think he got it wrong.

the_scotsman wrote:

Primaris psykers are 40pts IIRC. Astropaths are cheaper, but get a single D6 to cast their smites on. So, one of those two things you guys got wrong.

Also, the thing you can do about Smite is:

1) Have a psyker nearby to deny
2) Have another unit be closer to the enemy than the intended target, Smite can only hit the closest target within 18". Rhinos are good for this.

I got it wrong with the 28 pts. Anyway, one psyker can only deny one smite, he had seven psykers. He also smited my razorback, the lascan and RL infantry finished my razorback off.

the_scotsman wrote:
From a different perspective: If you lost a dreadnought in one turn to 280 points worth of overcharged plasma guns, would you be as annoyed? It's a similar weapon to smite with a similar range band and intended target. That's 14 Marines with plasma guns.

Its not the same. First you have to make 14 hit rolls with the marines. Hitting on 3s means you fail 5. Thats 9 hits remaining. From these 9 hits you have to wound on a 3 or 4, depending on whether you overcharged or not. If you didnt overcharge you wound on 4, which means 5 successful wounds, i may save 1, i lose 4 wounds. That doesnt kill a redemptor. Even with overcharge its 6, i save one, lose 10 wounds. Badly hurt, but not dead.
Against plasma you have an armor save, or an invuln save. You dont have any of these against smite.

A psyker only needs to make a single roll with 2 dice, and he needs a 5. The chance of succeeding is pretty high, like 2+ on a D6. The psykers were shielded by chimeras and inf squads, no chance to shoot them. Marines i could have easily shot, no characters.

Anyway, which unit in the game can deal d3 mortal wounds at a 83% success chance, for 40 pts., without any armor or invuln sv against it ?

....Do you regularly not overcharge your plasma guns when they're shooting at a vehicular target with T7? Lol. That's like saying "yeah, but if those plasma guns chose not to shoot my dreadnought, they wouldn't kill it, so they aren't the same because Smites are REQUIRED to shoot me if I'm the closest, they're literally MISTAKE PROOF!" Also, plasma guns fire two shots each, if you'll recall.

28 shots, 19 hits, 12.6666 wounds, 10.5 failed saves, 21 damage on average vs a 13 wound model.

Oh, you know what else you could have probably done? Used Armor of Contempt if you knew your Redemptor was tanking 7 smites. 1CP gives you a 5+ vs all of those mortals. 7*.83*2 on average = 11.6 wounds on average. 7.7 if you wanted to use the stratagem.

the_scotsman wrote:

....Do you regularly not overcharge your plasma guns when they're shooting at a vehicular target with T7? Lol. That's like saying "yeah, but if those plasma guns chose not to shoot my dreadnought, they wouldn't kill it, so they aren't the same because Smites are REQUIRED to shoot me if I'm the closest, they're literally MISTAKE PROOF!" Also, plasma guns fire two shots each, if you'll recall.

28 shots, 19 hits, 12.6666 wounds, 10.5 failed saves, 21 damage on average vs a 13 wound model.

How do you get 14 SM with plasmaguns for 280 pts ? A 5 model unit of company veterans with plasmaguns and combiplasma on the sarge is already 176 pts.

the_scotsman wrote:

Oh, you know what else you could have probably done? Used Armor of Contempt if you knew your Redemptor was tanking 7 smites. 1CP gives you a 5+ vs all of those mortals. 7*.83*2 on average = 11.6 wounds on average. 7.7 if you wanted to use the stratagem.

Thats true, but i didnt think of that.

p5freak wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

....Do you regularly not overcharge your plasma guns when they're shooting at a vehicular target with T7? Lol. That's like saying "yeah, but if those plasma guns chose not to shoot my dreadnought, they wouldn't kill it, so they aren't the same because Smites are REQUIRED to shoot me if I'm the closest, they're literally MISTAKE PROOF!" Also, plasma guns fire two shots each, if you'll recall.

28 shots, 19 hits, 12.6666 wounds, 10.5 failed saves, 21 damage on average vs a 13 wound model.

How do you get 14 SM with plasmaguns for 280 pts ? A 5 model unit of company veterans with plasmaguns and combiplasma on the sarge is already 176 pts.

the_scotsman wrote:

Oh, you know what else you could have probably done? Used Armor of Contempt if you knew your Redemptor was tanking 7 smites. 1CP gives you a 5+ vs all of those mortals. 7*.83*2 on average = 11.6 wounds on average. 7.7 if you wanted to use the stratagem.

Thats true, but i didnt think of that.

My bad, didn't realize plasma was 13 for the SMs. And if you want to put them on the 16pt marines, which is more realistic, 280pts gets you about 10. Still an average of 15 wounds, and the comparison is worse for pretty much any actual dedicated anti-armor weapon, many of which have enormously long range.

overall point here:

1) It's not actually that hard to kill a standard T7 3+ vehicle with anything.

2) it is more efficient to kill a standard T7 3+ vehicle with practically anything other than smites, thanks to the fact that smite is only 18" range, denyable, only affects the closest target, and if you try and stack up a ton of them against a Codex army they will typically have a stratagem or similar to help mitigate them. even with no stratagem, the math isn't great for smites vs anything else, with the exception being vs units that rely heavily on invuln saves, who Smite is highly effective at killing.

3) The first time you face something new, it's extremely likely to take you by surprise. You lost the dreadnought to a combination of poor positioning and forgetting your own options. Primaris psyker spam isn't bad, but it relies pretty heavily on the opponent not just keeping out of the 18" threat zone while the infantry screen gets chipped away.

Any time you blame your opponent's army, or the dice, for something bad happening, you absolve yourself of responsibility and you don't learn. There are definitely situations you can't learn from - rats, my opponent rolled all 6s for his lascannons and one shot my superheavy with two devastator squads...I should...not have that happen next time? - but if you fall into that trap of doing it every time you have a loss, you're never going to learn from any loss or bad thing happening.

How do you guys feel about the FAQ? Why would they choose now to address grav chute insertion? Take Cover only applying to infantry saddens me.

What's up with the commissars new rule? It's like, why bother taking one now? Am I reading that right?

If you cant pass a roll theres no point in the Commisar now, only lets you reroll it at the cost of a life. The only remaining advantage of the Commisar seems to be rerolling fluky bad morale rolls.

The grav chute insertion change doesn't seem to be a big change at all, at least the way I read it. Basically only a difference of 1", since they changed a <= to a <.

Though it does mean that you definitely have to drop into hover for a safe-drop.

WatcherZero wrote:
If you cant pass a roll theres no point in the Commisar now, only lets you reroll it at the cost of a life. The only remaining advantage of the Commisar seems to be rerolling fluky bad morale rolls.

It reads as if it were written quickly. It doesn't even say must or may. I'm just going to use banners in command squads for Catachans and keep an officer with them for +2 leadership. Commissars are essentially pointless for Catachans at this rate. Why spend 31+ points on a Commissar who kills a dude just to let you reroll? Just use Stratagems. We have 2 you can use in the morale phase.

Anybody hyped on Valhallan must be sad about using reinforcement points for Send in the next Wave.

The Valkyrie rules are a little disappointing but I guess it was probably OP to allow the Valk to stay supersonic while dropping dudes 9" away who could still move, shoot, and assault.

WatcherZero wrote:
If you cant pass a roll theres no point in the Commisar now, only lets you reroll it at the cost of a life. The only remaining advantage of the Commisar seems to be rerolling fluky bad morale rolls.

Which is a waste of 31 points.for such a small aura. Just buy an extra squad. It costs almost the same.

Here is an insanely absurd psycher spam list. Its 14 astropath and 4 primaris psykers. They all embark on the aquilla landers and are setup in the sky, they later deepstrike ~16" away and kill everything with psychic maelstrom/smite in 18" range. Some probably will survive and continue the psychic maelstrom/smite next turn because the flyers protect them from enemy fire, they are all characters. The rest is just there to fill the empty slots and kill whatever is left of the enemy forces. The list is not optimized, i normally dont play AM. It can probably be made even worse, i guess.


++ Brigade Detachment +9CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [92 PL, 1485pts] ++

+ Uncategorised +

Regiment: Tallarn

+ HQ +

Primaris Psyker [2 PL, 40pts]: 4) Nightshroud, 6) Psychic Maelstrom, Force Stave

Primaris Psyker [2 PL, 40pts]: 4) Nightshroud, 6) Psychic Maelstrom, Force Stave

Primaris Psyker [2 PL, 40pts]: 4) Nightshroud, 6) Psychic Maelstrom, Force Stave

+ Troops +

Militarum Tempestus Scions [3 PL, 50pts]
. 4x Scion: 4x Hot-shot Lasgun
. Tempestor: Chainsword, Hot-shot Laspistol

Militarum Tempestus Scions [3 PL, 50pts]
. 4x Scion: 4x Hot-shot Lasgun
. Tempestor: Chainsword, Hot-shot Laspistol

Militarum Tempestus Scions [3 PL, 50pts]
. 4x Scion: 4x Hot-shot Lasgun
. Tempestor: Chainsword, Hot-shot Laspistol

Militarum Tempestus Scions [3 PL, 50pts]
. 4x Scion: 4x Hot-shot Lasgun
. Tempestor: Chainsword, Hot-shot Laspistol

Militarum Tempestus Scions [3 PL, 50pts]
. 4x Scion: 4x Hot-shot Lasgun
. Tempestor: Chainsword, Hot-shot Laspistol

Militarum Tempestus Scions [3 PL, 50pts]
. 4x Scion: 4x Hot-shot Lasgun
. Tempestor: Chainsword, Hot-shot Laspistol

+ Elites +

Astropath [1 PL, 15pts]: 6) Psychic Maelstrom, Laspistol

Astropath [1 PL, 15pts]: 6) Psychic Maelstrom, Laspistol

Astropath [1 PL, 15pts]: 6) Psychic Maelstrom, Laspistol

Astropath [1 PL, 15pts]: 6) Psychic Maelstrom, Laspistol

Astropath [1 PL, 15pts]: 6) Psychic Maelstrom, Laspistol

Astropath [1 PL, 15pts]: 6) Psychic Maelstrom, Laspistol

Astropath [1 PL, 15pts]: 6) Psychic Maelstrom, Laspistol

Astropath [1 PL, 15pts]: 6) Psychic Maelstrom, Laspistol

+ Fast Attack +

Armoured Sentinels [3 PL, 55pts]
. Armoured Sentinel: Autocannon

Armoured Sentinels [3 PL, 55pts]
. Armoured Sentinel: Autocannon

Armoured Sentinels [3 PL, 55pts]
. Armoured Sentinel: Autocannon

+ Heavy Support +

Basilisks [21 PL, 324pts]
. Basilisk: Heavy Bolter
. Basilisk: Heavy Bolter
. Basilisk: Heavy Bolter

Leman Russ Battle Tanks [20 PL, 304pts]
. Leman Russ Battle Tank: Battle Cannon, Heavy Bolter
. Leman Russ Battle Tank: Battle Cannon, Heavy Bolter

Leman Russ Battle Tanks [10 PL, 152pts]
. Leman Russ Battle Tank: Battle Cannon, Heavy Bolter

++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [8 PL, 130pts] ++

+ Uncategorised +

Regiment: Cadian

+ HQ +

Primaris Psyker [2 PL, 40pts]: 4) Nightshroud, 6) Psychic Maelstrom, Force Stave

+ Elites +

Astropath [1 PL, 15pts]: 6) Psychic Maelstrom, Laspistol

Astropath [1 PL, 15pts]: 6) Psychic Maelstrom, Laspistol

Astropath [1 PL, 15pts]: 6) Psychic Maelstrom, Laspistol

Astropath [1 PL, 15pts]: 6) Psychic Maelstrom, Laspistol

Astropath [1 PL, 15pts]: 6) Psychic Maelstrom, Laspistol

Astropath [1 PL, 15pts]: 6) Psychic Maelstrom, Laspistol

++ Air Wing Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [21 PL, 375pts] ++

+ Uncategorised +

Regiment: Tallarn

+ Flyer +

Aquilla Lander [7 PL, 125pts]: Autocannon

Aquilla Lander [7 PL, 125pts]: Autocannon

Aquilla Lander [7 PL, 125pts]: Autocannon

++ Total: [121 PL, 1990pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)

Well you can only cast psychic maelstrom once per turn ... So it's not going to be that strong.

p5freak wrote:
Here is an insanely absurd psycher spam list. Its 14 astropath and 4 primaris psykers. They all embark on the aquilla landers and are setup in the sky, they later deepstrike ~16" away and kill everything with psychic maelstrom/smite in 18" range. Some probably will survive and continue the psychic maelstrom/smite next turn because the flyers protect them from enemy fire, they are all characters. The rest is just there to fill the empty slots and kill whatever is left of the enemy forces. The list is not optimized, i normally dont play AM. It can probably be made even worse, i guess.


++ Brigade Detachment +9CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [92 PL, 1485pts] ++

+ Uncategorised +

Regiment: Tallarn

+ HQ +

Primaris Psyker [2 PL, 40pts]: 4) Nightshroud, 6) Psychic Maelstrom, Force Stave

Primaris Psyker [2 PL, 40pts]: 4) Nightshroud, 6) Psychic Maelstrom, Force Stave

Primaris Psyker [2 PL, 40pts]: 4) Nightshroud, 6) Psychic Maelstrom, Force Stave

+ Troops +

Militarum Tempestus Scions [3 PL, 50pts]
. 4x Scion: 4x Hot-shot Lasgun
. Tempestor: Chainsword, Hot-shot Laspistol

Militarum Tempestus Scions [3 PL, 50pts]
. 4x Scion: 4x Hot-shot Lasgun
. Tempestor: Chainsword, Hot-shot Laspistol

Militarum Tempestus Scions [3 PL, 50pts]
. 4x Scion: 4x Hot-shot Lasgun
. Tempestor: Chainsword, Hot-shot Laspistol

Militarum Tempestus Scions [3 PL, 50pts]
. 4x Scion: 4x Hot-shot Lasgun
. Tempestor: Chainsword, Hot-shot Laspistol

Militarum Tempestus Scions [3 PL, 50pts]
. 4x Scion: 4x Hot-shot Lasgun
. Tempestor: Chainsword, Hot-shot Laspistol

Militarum Tempestus Scions [3 PL, 50pts]
. 4x Scion: 4x Hot-shot Lasgun
. Tempestor: Chainsword, Hot-shot Laspistol

+ Elites +

Astropath [1 PL, 15pts]: 6) Psychic Maelstrom, Laspistol

Astropath [1 PL, 15pts]: 6) Psychic Maelstrom, Laspistol

Astropath [1 PL, 15pts]: 6) Psychic Maelstrom, Laspistol

Astropath [1 PL, 15pts]: 6) Psychic Maelstrom, Laspistol

Astropath [1 PL, 15pts]: 6) Psychic Maelstrom, Laspistol

Astropath [1 PL, 15pts]: 6) Psychic Maelstrom, Laspistol

Astropath [1 PL, 15pts]: 6) Psychic Maelstrom, Laspistol

Astropath [1 PL, 15pts]: 6) Psychic Maelstrom, Laspistol

+ Fast Attack +

Armoured Sentinels [3 PL, 55pts]
. Armoured Sentinel: Autocannon

Armoured Sentinels [3 PL, 55pts]
. Armoured Sentinel: Autocannon

Armoured Sentinels [3 PL, 55pts]
. Armoured Sentinel: Autocannon

+ Heavy Support +

Basilisks [21 PL, 324pts]
. Basilisk: Heavy Bolter
. Basilisk: Heavy Bolter
. Basilisk: Heavy Bolter

Leman Russ Battle Tanks [20 PL, 304pts]
. Leman Russ Battle Tank: Battle Cannon, Heavy Bolter
. Leman Russ Battle Tank: Battle Cannon, Heavy Bolter

Leman Russ Battle Tanks [10 PL, 152pts]
. Leman Russ Battle Tank: Battle Cannon, Heavy Bolter

++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [8 PL, 130pts] ++

+ Uncategorised +

Regiment: Cadian

+ HQ +

Primaris Psyker [2 PL, 40pts]: 4) Nightshroud, 6) Psychic Maelstrom, Force Stave

+ Elites +

Astropath [1 PL, 15pts]: 6) Psychic Maelstrom, Laspistol

Astropath [1 PL, 15pts]: 6) Psychic Maelstrom, Laspistol

Astropath [1 PL, 15pts]: 6) Psychic Maelstrom, Laspistol

Astropath [1 PL, 15pts]: 6) Psychic Maelstrom, Laspistol

Astropath [1 PL, 15pts]: 6) Psychic Maelstrom, Laspistol

Astropath [1 PL, 15pts]: 6) Psychic Maelstrom, Laspistol

++ Air Wing Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [21 PL, 375pts] ++

+ Uncategorised +

Regiment: Tallarn

+ Flyer +

Aquilla Lander [7 PL, 125pts]: Autocannon

Aquilla Lander [7 PL, 125pts]: Autocannon

Aquilla Lander [7 PL, 125pts]: Autocannon

++ Total: [121 PL, 1990pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)

So, three two-dice smites, 5 one-die smites, and 1 psychic maelstrom?

Man, I'm spooked out right now. Halloween has come early.

the_scotsman wrote:

So, three two-dice smites, 5 one-die smites, and 1 psychic maelstrom?

Man, I'm spooked out right now. Halloween has come early.

The only 1 psychic power per turn is only in matched play. Outside matched play its 18 psychic maelstrom.

p5freak wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

So, three two-dice smites, 5 one-die smites, and 1 psychic maelstrom?

Man, I'm spooked out right now. Halloween has come early.

The only 1 psychic power per turn is only in matched play. Outside matched play its 18 psychic maelstrom.

Sure. I take that list and raise you an all-commander tau list with each having 4 melta guns and all the optional equipment.

Spoiler alert: If you want competitive balanced, play with the matched play restrictions.