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SilverAlien wrote:
Hey, they kept saying we needed to wait for the full picture, we have it now. I want them to explain how exactly it is balanced. Clearly something in the codex must make it balanced and I'm overlooking it, unless it is a trash heap of broken OP garbage and things are exactly as bad as people were predicting. Couldn't be though, right?

You've missed the point, it's not about the full picture - its about waiting. You had to wait for the codex to be released. Now you have to wait for the meta to settle. Then you'll have to wait for the other codexes to be released to compare them. Then you'll have to wait for chapter approved to see if that fixes things. Then you'll have to wait for the new edition. At which point - you'll have to wait for the new codex to drop. It's the circle of (gw) life. No-one is just going to come out and admit they were wrong or you were right.

Accurate description of my time here since 6th dropped.

Here's my thoughts:
The codex is more powerful than any other army right now. That much is obvious. Anyone disputing that either has their head in the sand, doesn't understand the balance of the edition, or is just being contrarian.

The real question that we'll have to see is *how much* more powerful it is. It's top-level play will probably also be the top-level play for 40k in general, but is it going to be counterable?
If I play a non-guard faction, is it going to be possible for me to tailor a list to beat Tournament Level Imperial Guard and actually come away victorious? If so, that creates a metagame. It's not ideal, but it's at least interesting.
If tailoring is possible, I can show up to a tournament tailored to beat IG, and wing it against everyone else, or I can show up to a tournament with IG, or I can show up to a tournament with a TAC list and beat anyone who came looking specifically to face IG.

On the other hand... If it's not, that is really, really bad. If it's not possible to have decent odds against Imperial Guard, even when you've tailored your list specifically with them in mind, then that pretty much destroys any competitive scene that Warhammer 40k might have.

I'm playing a game against Imperial Guard on Tuesday. The guy who I'm playing against is, hands down, the best player at our LGS. (Myself not included in the running, because I'm not sure who's better between the two of us - We're the top two, though.) I've written a 'Tournament List' that could theoretically work against any faction, but I made it with Imperial Guard in mind because right now, when I think Tournament, I'm thinking of that metagame I mentioned above. (It's 3k, which isn't tournament standard, but whatever. I'm bringing Ultramarines, mostly, which seems to be one of the strongest individual factions at the moment outside of IG.(Or, at least, Guilliman is very strong and makes Ultramarines strong by proxy.))
If I win, or if I at least come within striking distance of victory and see ways to improve, that'll be my sign that the game is bent, but not broken.

If I get entirely trounced and don't see any way I could have any recourse bar just bringing Imperial Guard of my own, that's my cue that things are broken too far and need to be fixed.

 Torga_DW wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:
Hey, they kept saying we needed to wait for the full picture, we have it now. I want them to explain how exactly it is balanced. Clearly something in the codex must make it balanced and I'm overlooking it, unless it is a trash heap of broken OP garbage and things are exactly as bad as people were predicting. Couldn't be though, right?

You've missed the point, it's not about the full picture - its about waiting. You had to wait for the codex to be released. Now you have to wait for the meta to settle. Then you'll have to wait for the other codexes to be released to compare them. Then you'll have to wait for chapter approved to see if that fixes things. Then you'll have to wait for the new edition. At which point - you'll have to wait for the new codex to drop. It's the circle of (gw) life. No-one is just going to come out and admit they were wrong or you were right.

Words of wisdom. This is so true.

And to put things into perspective. I played my first game since 5th ed, last night against the new Death Guard. Mortarion and 6 Death shroud terminators with poxwalker and plague marines. I played with my orks. Mortarian and his Death shroud bodyguard ripped through my entire army, granted I was a bit rusty as well. It would be easy for me to shout cheese, but now IG has a new dex that's just as cheesy from what I hear. Eventually cheese will counter cheese. It's called power creep. It's what makes GW their money. This will never change. I have learnt to enjoy it over the years

LeonN wrote:

 Torga_DW wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:
Hey, they kept saying we needed to wait for the full picture, we have it now. I want them to explain how exactly it is balanced. Clearly something in the codex must make it balanced and I'm overlooking it, unless it is a trash heap of broken OP garbage and things are exactly as bad as people were predicting. Couldn't be though, right?

You've missed the point, it's not about the full picture - its about waiting. You had to wait for the codex to be released. Now you have to wait for the meta to settle. Then you'll have to wait for the other codexes to be released to compare them. Then you'll have to wait for chapter approved to see if that fixes things. Then you'll have to wait for the new edition. At which point - you'll have to wait for the new codex to drop. It's the circle of (gw) life. No-one is just going to come out and admit they were wrong or you were right.

Words of wisdom. This is so true.

And to put things into perspective. I played my first game since 5th ed, last night against the new Death Guard. Mortarion and 6 Death shroud terminators with poxwalker and plague marines. I played with my orks. Mortarian and his Death shroud bodyguard ripped through my entire army, granted I was a bit rusty as well. It would be easy for me to shout cheese, but now IG has a new dex that's just as cheesy from what I hear. Eventually cheese will counter cheese. It's called power creep. It's what makes GW their money. This will never change. I have learnt to enjoy it over the years

Death Shroud Terminators aren't actually cheesy from everything I've seen, Morty is really good, Poxwalkers and Plague Marines are both firmly in the 'OK' department.
Really, the problem was probably just that Orks aren't very good, and lack options for dealing with elite infantry, and especially to deal with big stuff like Morty. (There's Tankbustas and... Just Tankbustas. Maybe Lootas, if you're being generous.)
Death Guard aren't a case of Power Creep, at least not unless I've really missed something.

Waaaghpower wrote:

LeonN wrote:

 Torga_DW wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:
Hey, they kept saying we needed to wait for the full picture, we have it now. I want them to explain how exactly it is balanced. Clearly something in the codex must make it balanced and I'm overlooking it, unless it is a trash heap of broken OP garbage and things are exactly as bad as people were predicting. Couldn't be though, right?

You've missed the point, it's not about the full picture - its about waiting. You had to wait for the codex to be released. Now you have to wait for the meta to settle. Then you'll have to wait for the other codexes to be released to compare them. Then you'll have to wait for chapter approved to see if that fixes things. Then you'll have to wait for the new edition. At which point - you'll have to wait for the new codex to drop. It's the circle of (gw) life. No-one is just going to come out and admit they were wrong or you were right.

Words of wisdom. This is so true.

And to put things into perspective. I played my first game since 5th ed, last night against the new Death Guard. Mortarion and 6 Death shroud terminators with poxwalker and plague marines. I played with my orks. Mortarian and his Death shroud bodyguard ripped through my entire army, granted I was a bit rusty as well. It would be easy for me to shout cheese, but now IG has a new dex that's just as cheesy from what I hear. Eventually cheese will counter cheese. It's called power creep. It's what makes GW their money. This will never change. I have learnt to enjoy it over the years

Death Shroud Terminators aren't actually cheesy from everything I've seen, Morty is really good, Poxwalkers and Plague Marines are both firmly in the 'OK' department.
Really, the problem was probably just that Orks aren't very good, and lack options for dealing with elite infantry, and especially to deal with big stuff like Morty. (There's Tankbustas and... Just Tankbustas. Maybe Lootas, if you're being generous.)
Death Guard aren't a case of Power Creep, at least not unless I've really missed something.

Like I said, i haven't played 40k in years. Last night was my first game. When you see a giant angel of death ripping through 120+ models one is inclined to think Cheese but yes, i'm not that clued up on Death Guard so I might be wrong...

No, deff gaurd can be dealt with even without codex just Orks have been crap for the last few editions with no survivability and expensive useless elite models.

Have not lost to orks yet even green tide isn't that scary.

So, here's a question - is the IG codex still OMGZ BROKEN OP if you don't use Conscripts or Super Heavy Tanks?

 vipoid wrote:
So, here's a question - is the IG codex still OMGZ BROKEN OP if you don't use Conscripts or Super Heavy Tanks?

Of course it is, their mere presence breaks it!

On another note, I want to know what the hell Creed has that is considered his Relic. Is it the power sword that has no unique stats? The hot-shot laspistols?

Also: Why do Sergeants not include a Chain Sword as standard now? If I'm unable to purchase a Lasgun for them, at least make it so that they have something standardized instead of just having a Laspistol and Frag Grenades.

Fortunately the external balance issues don't bother me at all, though from what I am gathering it looks like a very strong codex. At this point I can't imagine taking 40K seriously enough to actually care about competitive play.

That said, I'm happy that the internal balance seems to be somewhat better, for sure. It really irks me when I see a codex with a slew of blatantly bad options compared to other units in the same codex.

 vipoid wrote:
So, here's a question - is the IG codex still OMGZ BROKEN OP if you don't use Conscripts or Super Heavy Tanks?

Manticores, infinite bs3 Russes, enough mortar HWTs to wipe out equivalent points of conscripts behind LOS blocking bastions, Reroll to hit wyverns, and the piece de resistance, SWT plasma gunners that all reroll 1s for *less* than the cost of a marine in power armour.

40 cadian Reroll 1s BS 4 plasma gunners with 40 scrubs of ablative wounds is 600 pts; easily squeaking in a pair of storm lords to cart them around and enough commanders to get rerolls on wounds or reroll 1s if they need to move for some reason.

As i'm fond of saying, GW sells 5 packs of resin plasma guns for this very purpose

dosiere wrote:
Fortunately the external balance issues don't bother me at all, though from what I am gathering it looks like a very strong codex. At this point I can't imagine taking 40K seriously enough to actually care about competitive play.

That said, I'm happy that the internal balance seems to be somewhat better, for sure. It really irks me when I see a codex with a slew of blatantly bad options compared to other units in the same codex.

Well, it may bother you when you can't find people who want to play against your army.

B-b-b-but the internet told me 8th was perfect! T-this was the NEW Games Workshop(tm) who made a perfectly balanced game with zero flaws and that everything had changed! Oh nooooooooooooooooooooo....!

 vipoid wrote:
So, here's a question - is the IG codex still OMGZ BROKEN OP if you don't use Conscripts or Super Heavy Tanks?

It's very strong, but hardly unbeatable. Take away Conscripts/Scions and it would honestly be one of the best codexes they've ever released just for how much stuff is viable to take and not be worthless junk. Whilst Imperial Guard will now have to suffer ten years penance the same way 3.5 CSM/Eldar/Tau have in the eyes of Space Marine players, I'm very interested in seeing how the other books after this one shape up by comparison.

 malamis wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
So, here's a question - is the IG codex still OMGZ BROKEN OP if you don't use Conscripts or Super Heavy Tanks?

Manticores, infinite bs3 Russes, enough mortar HWTs to wipe out equivalent points of conscripts behind LOS blocking bastions, Reroll to hit wyverns, and the piece de resistance, SWT plasma gunners that all reroll 1s for *less* than the cost of a marine in power armour.

40 cadian Reroll 1s BS 4 plasma gunners with 40 scrubs of ablative wounds is 600 pts; easily squeaking in a pair of storm lords to cart them around and enough commanders to get rerolls on wounds or reroll 1s if they need to move for some reason.

As i'm fond of saying, GW sells 5 packs of resin plasma guns for this very purpose

Hyperbole the post...

At 33pts per 3-HWT squad you can only field 3 (2.7 technically) for one squad of 30 Conscripts. Assuming three HWT squads and a 10.5 average on 3d6 you're causing ~2 wounds per squad to GEQ per squad, for a total ~6 wounds a shooting phase for 99pts. Hardly 'wiping out Conscripts/GEQ behind LOS blocking bastions.'

Base LRBT costs 152pts (battle cannon + HB); for that you're killing ~2 MEQ a turn + the heavy bolter (~.5). Punisher LRBT is 3.3 + HB. So yes, you can get ObSec on Russes now and each one is a T8 12W Sv3+ brick, but they're still not decimating armies with each individual tank.

Even your SWT example - you need at least 2 Vanguard detachments to field nearly that many SWT without going Brigade/Battalion (nets you 72 guys with 36 plasma guns). And Cadian only works standing still, so kind of wasting that benefit embarking them. Going Armageddon gives them 18" rapid fire on their Plasma Guns. Them plus the two SHV is pretty nasty, but hardly insurmountable - particularly if you stuff your SWTs in the Stormlords, now your opponent can focus on just the two... killing one before you disembark them could strand and damage (~6 guys die on avg) ~1/2 of the real damage-causing part of your army before they even really do something.

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:

dosiere wrote:
Fortunately the external balance issues don't bother me at all, though from what I am gathering it looks like a very strong codex. At this point I can't imagine taking 40K seriously enough to actually care about competitive play.

That said, I'm happy that the internal balance seems to be somewhat better, for sure. It really irks me when I see a codex with a slew of blatantly bad options compared to other units in the same codex.

Well, it may bother you when you can't find people who want to play against your army.

Well, I don't even have any guard models anymore, mostly because I couldn't stand the plastic Cadians. Again, I can't imagine caring enough about the competitiveness of 40k to even refuse myself. It really doesn't matter, and hasn't for a long time. Some guy wants to bring his OP guard spam list , I really don't care as long as it's painted and he's polite during the game. If I'm looking for a game where I can have fun and be competitive at the same time I have several others that cater to that much, much better than 40k.

Regarding tournaments... well aren't there always a few top lists? I Remember when it was tau, then eldar, then xxxxx, etc... GW doesn't do external balance worth a darn, and hasn't for a very long time. They rarely adjust things appropriately after releases and just as rarely get it right the first time either. So, now it's guard. Just another day. In a few months some other OP combo of some sort will be even better. What's the point in getting worked up, either in a positive or negative fashion about something that from GW is inevitable?

 Arbitrator wrote:
B-b-b-but the internet told me 8th was perfect! T-this was the NEW Games Workshop(tm) who made a perfectly balanced game with zero flaws and that everything had changed! Oh nooooooooooooooooooooo....!

 vipoid wrote:
So, here's a question - is the IG codex still OMGZ BROKEN OP if you don't use Conscripts or Super Heavy Tanks?

It's very strong, but hardly unbeatable. Take away Conscripts/Scions and it would honestly be one of the best codexes they've ever released just for how much stuff is viable to take and not be worthless junk. Whilst Imperial Guard will now have to suffer ten years penance the same way 3.5 CSM/Eldar/Tau have in the eyes of Space Marine players, I'm very interested in seeing how the other books after this one shape up by comparison.

Er pretty sure gw told us they'd play tested both in house and externally to ensure better balance.

personally I never believed it anymore than I think they've genuinely changed.

 malamis wrote:
Manticores,

I know they're good but are they actually broken/OP?

Simply stating that they exist isn't very helpful.

 malamis wrote:
infinite bs3 Russes

BS3+ Russes are free?

 malamis wrote:
enough mortar HWTs to wipe out equivalent points of conscripts behind LOS blocking bastions

Are mortar HWTs really an issue? Especially after going up in points.

 malamis wrote:
Reroll to hit wyverns

Oh no, not rerolls to hit. Why, those are just unheard of in 8th.

 malamis wrote:
and the piece de resistance, SWT plasma gunners that all reroll 1s for *less* than the cost of a marine in power armour.

And have BS4+ (meaning rerolling 1s does very little anyway). And T3 5+. And if you're talking about Cadia, the they only get those rerolls if they stand still.

You'll forgive me if I'm not yet trembling with fear.

 malamis wrote:

40 cadian Reroll 1s BS 4 plasma gunners with 40 scrubs of ablative wounds is 600 pts; easily squeaking in a pair of storm lords to cart them around and enough commanders to get rerolls on wounds or reroll 1s if they need to move for some reason.

I assume you mean 'squeezing in'. And the most impressive thing about that build is that you were able to get 80 men using only 6-man units.

Regardless, I see you're now ignoring my question entirely, as I specifically asked if the IG codex was OP if you ignore super heavies and conscripts.

 vipoid wrote:
So, here's a question - is the IG codex still OMGZ BROKEN OP if you don't use Conscripts or Super Heavy Tanks?

See this is sort of the problem the people crying OP have. They see that Conscripts weren't nerfed into the ground and, god forbid, Superheavies and leman russes get a buff that actually makes them usable and desirable, and suddenly the entire codex is now more broken than 7th ed Eldar.

If you listened to them, it sounds like people are running in fear of all-sentinel lists led by a Lord Commissars, and Chimeras and Leman Russes were dominating the pre-codex meta like Wave Serpents did in 6th.

I even agreed that Conscripts probably needed a bigger nerf than just the order and unit size thing, but honestly I can't even voice that because 1.) to normal people it just lumps me in with the crazy impatient people who can't wait for their own codex to drop (especially since I still have an army waiting for their codex, the Nids) and 2.) for the crazy impatient people I didn't go far enough with my condemnations.

GhostRecon wrote:


Hyperbole the post...

At 33pts per 3-HWT squad you can only field 3 (2.7 technically) for one squad of 30 Conscripts. Assuming three HWT squads and a 10.5 average on 3d6 you're causing ~2 wounds per squad to GEQ per squad, for a total ~6 wounds a shooting phase for 99pts. Hardly 'wiping out Conscripts/GEQ behind LOS blocking bastions.'

A. Cadian reroll 1s to hit leading to B. cadian reroll hits if they have an officer in range with option of c. cadian strat for +1 to hit targetted unit after the first ; though it'd probably be a waste of CP

Assuming just A. & B. it's a smidge over 3/team average. I will however withdraw the 'wipe' term, as it would require a bit more planning to pull off than is necessary to shepherd the volume of conscripts.

GhostRecon wrote:

Base LRBT costs 152pts (battle cannon + HB); for that you're killing ~2 MEQ a turn + the heavy bolter (~.5). Punisher LRBT is 3.3 + HB. So yes, you can get ObSec on Russes now and each one is a T8 12W Sv3+ brick, but they're still not decimating armies with each individual tank.

Whereas a Cadian executioner commander at 225 with plasma sponsons is doing closer to 4.7 primaris a turn given double tap for 10 overcharged plasma shots (2d6 + 2d3 ) with reroll 1s, not counting the heavy bolter. More often than not, it's wiping full primaris squads per turn in this situation.

2 of them under Old Grudges and "Pound Them To Dust" on each other ( assuming 7 shots avg from the 2d6 with reroll ) on a Shadowsword could quite feasibly put it out of commission in one turn with just plasma, not even needing the +1 to hit strat. It's not the literal meaning decimation, but killing 540 pts with 450 pts in one turn is perhaps 'hanging, drawing and quartering' .

Basic Russes are as you've described. (Cadian) Tank commanders are a whole new breed of hell.

GhostRecon wrote:

Even your SWT example - you need at least 2 Vanguard detachments to field nearly that many SWT without going Brigade/Battalion (nets you 72 guys with 36 plasma guns).

Why would that be a bad thing? It's not like the company commanders aren't going to be useful.

To be fair with regards to Special Weapon Teams, remember that you're only getting to give 3 of the 6 guys a Special Weapon.

 malamis wrote:
Whereas a Cadian executioner commander at 225 with plasma sponsons is doing closer to 4.7 primaris a turn given double tap for 10 overcharged plasma shots (2d6 + 2d3 ) with reroll 1s, not counting the heavy bolter. More often than not, it's wiping full primaris squads per turn in this situation.

2 of them under Old Grudges and "Pound Them To Dust" on each other ( assuming 7 shots avg from the 2d6 with reroll ) on a Shadowsword could quite feasibly put it out of commission in one turn with just plasma, not even needing the +1 to hit strat. It's not the literal meaning decimation, but killing 540 pts with 450 pts in one turn is perhaps 'hanging, drawing and quartering' .

Basic Russes are as you've described. (Cadian) Tank commanders are a whole new breed of hell.

Still doesn't support your 'free/infinite BS3+ LRBT' statement. And a basic Shadowsword costs 404pts so using 450pts and 2 HQ slots that need to get within 36" intact to cripple it seems pretty fair to me. Especially considering in a battlefield scenario at least one is likely to end up crippled by then - they are still T8 W12 Sv3+ models that don't benefit from 'Character' protection. 225pts that your opponent can focus his AT on.

 malamis wrote:

GhostRecon wrote:

Even your SWT example - you need at least 2 Vanguard detachments to field nearly that many SWT without going Brigade/Battalion (nets you 72 guys with 36 plasma guns).

Why would that be a bad thing? It's not like the company commanders aren't going to be useful.

If you want to shoot MEQ a stationary Cadian Rus with a Punisher gets about 50% of its points back. Its around 43% without rerolling 1s.

This is good.

 vipoid wrote:

 malamis wrote:
Manticores,

I know they're good but are they actually broken/OP?

Simply stating that they exist isn't very helpful.

If you haven't played against massed manticores, i'd imagine it wouldn't be

They're incomparable. To my knowledge at least - there isn't an equivalent indirect fire unit in any codex. With quite a selection of regimental buffs I do believe they have become OP if played right. Still experimenting with them.

 vipoid wrote:

BS3+ Russes are free?

You can have an army consisting entirely of them without paying a tax of any kind. Something of a big deal

 vipoid wrote:

Are mortar HWTs really an issue? Especially after going up in points.

While they were priced in line with their utility in a vacuum, they didn't get priced taking the access to the new buffs into account I think.

 vipoid wrote:

 malamis wrote:
Reroll to hit wyverns

Oh no, not rerolls to hit. Why, those are just unheard of in 8th.

On 12d6 shots all day every day for < 280 which ignores that sweet sweet LOS limitation is kind of a big deal.

 vipoid wrote:

 malamis wrote:
and the piece de resistance, SWT plasma gunners that all reroll 1s for *less* than the cost of a marine in power armour.

And have BS4+ (meaning rerolling 1s does very little anyway). And T3 5+. And if you're talking about Cadia, the they only get those rerolls if they stand still.

You'll forgive me if I'm not yet trembling with fear.

Which, if the target is important enough, is why it'd become 3+ with the Cadian strat, rerolling to hit if there's an officer pootling about. Or indeed both.

 vipoid wrote:

I assume you mean 'squeezing in'.

Squeaking. British English and all

 vipoid wrote:


And the most impressive thing about that build is that you were able to get 80 men using only 6-man units.

Quite right; i dunno where I went wrong there. Possibly jumping ahead and adding in the officers? :\

Anyway corrected; 13 SWS for 39 plasma guns for 585 and 78 Gmen. £48 for the finecast plasma guns presently, *about* £120 for GMen depending on your standards. I've been experimenting with Oyumaru for the former and found it's better suited for meltaguns.

 vipoid wrote:

Regardless, I see you're now ignoring my question entirely, as I specifically asked if the IG codex was OP if you ignore super heavies and conscripts.

You only got the first paragraph. The second para was for my own enjoyment

Tyel wrote:
If you want to shoot MEQ a stationary Cadian Rus with a Punisher gets about 50% of its points back. Its around 43% without rerolling 1s.

This is good.

I would be reticent to take a 24" range unit if I planned to keep it sill as part of a gunline. I would probably go for a standard battle cannon, mainly due to the much longer range. The tank order to reroll number of shots is another reason to give Cadians mainly that type of turret weapon.

 Klowny wrote:
armageddon conscripts get 8 shots per model with FRFSRF... thats 240 shots from 90 points of models..... that are immune to morale. Granted orders are a 4+ to receive, but you have like 1000000 CP to use on re-rolls.

I'm not saying that they are the most powerful thing in the codex. But when your basic infantry unit that is meant to be chaff screens can put out that much dakka, it doesn't bode well for the rest of the codex. And as we can now see, the dakka that can put out is incredible.

This is wrong. The Armageddon doctrine allows them to rapid fire at a range of 18" rather than the standard 12" for the lasgun. It doesn't turn their weapons into rapid fire 2 before frfsrf.
The wording is "Infantry units with this doctrine may double the number of attacks they make with Rapid Fire weapons at a range of up to 18 ", rather than half the weapons range as normal."
So instead of it being 12" of rapid fire, it is now 18" of rapid fire.

A *LOT* of confusion going on here. Despite their claim, it seems that many people do not have the 'full picture' at all.

I'll try to contribute by addressing some of the very confused issues I've read so far. Some have been addressed already, but just to sum up that hybris can obfuscate reason...

 Aaranis wrote:
I played my first game post AdMech codex against a Guard list with 8 Leman Russes, including Pask and another Tank Commander. [...]

I'd like to have T8 in my army too :/

Your good low-S weapons (phosphor, arc rifle) wound T8 at 5+, just like T7. Your good/excellent high-S weapons (lascannon/neutron laser) wound T8 at 3+, just like T7.
The only weapons to which LR T8 makes a difference are autocannons (rarely used) and torsion cannon (which is crap, never used). If you use a Knight there are a couple more possible possible weapons in this list, but still of limited use in most armies.

As AdMech, facing T8 does not really matter that much. I play AdMech too and my concerns are others.

Quickjager wrote:
I think Scions are still great, even though the plasma dropsquad costs 24 more points, they received plenty of point reductions elsewhere to make up for it. Also extra hits on 6's now, so any IG player using searchlights now gets an extra shot on a 5+ while not being able to overheat in supercharged mode.

This is simply so wrong. 1) You need to have an all-Scions detachment to use that rule, but fair enough this can be done. 2) Especially, if you are referring to Sabre platforms, you are very wrong: they cannot receive the Tempestus Scions keyword (as any other datasheet around: AM codex, p. 132), thus what you fear cannot happen. Do you bother reading the manuals before postulating? And, despite everything, believe me: Scions are *a lot* less viable now, you'll see them much less on the field. Still good and still playable, but certainly not overpowered.

malamis wrote:
Conscripts got a flat out buff in the form of the Grenadiers stratagem. 30d6 grenades in over watch, or God forbid, assault is beyond the pale given what they could already do.

As above: simply wrong. I assume by 'assault' you mean 'shooting'. Above all: READ THE CODEX, p. 135. The stratagem you refer to states that "up to 10 models in the unit" can fire a grenade. 30 conscripts = 10d6, never 30d6. This is not a doctrine to use on conscripts, but rather on either a full-Scion squad or, with limited results, a full Veteran/Infantry squad, for which it is certainly not that much more effective than FRSRF on average (4x10 lasguns = 40 shots; roll 10d6 and see if you get much better than this, by paying a CP).

Klowny wrote:
armageddon conscripts get 8 shots per model with FRFSRF.

Uh, what?! Not really. READ the Armageddon doctrine properly and you'll understand that it refers to the standard rapid-fire double shots, *not* to an additional duplication! Codex, p. 133: "double the number of attacks they make with r.f. weapons at a range of up to 18", RATHER THAN half the weapon's range as normal". It might be poorly worded, but it obviously and simply means that lasguns fire 2 shots instead of 1 at 18" rather than 12", or 4 shots with FRFSRF. Certainly not 8, ever.


As for LR discussion: sadly they were crap in their first iteration. You certainly did not see many around. Now they are good, and you'll see more. But they still die, and still don't do miracles. Also: the attractive possibility to combine different regiments requires separate detachments to optimize. AM now really encourages combined arms armies (and fluff-wise, this is great): but believe me, this comes at a cost: due to the way doctrines work now, it will not be so easy to field brigades and get 13+ CP unless you give up some significant flexibility/combos now. There is a design rationale behind all this, and I appreciate it.

I do not even consider the debates about point-cost efficiency ratio, because I do not play Mathhammer and every good player knows that performance on the field depends on *many* other factors that cannot be taken into account this way.

Besides playing AdMech, I also play AM since many, many years. I've played it quite a lot this edition so far, and after seeing the codex I can say this: it is powerful, it is great, it is inspired and well conceived. It mantains some flaws, i.e. nearly useless units/options, but still it is a huge improvement over the past Codexes in terms of design quality, and an excellent omen for the future Codexes. It is NOT OP, and it is nowhere near some 7th ed. broken nonsense, luckily. People tend to over-react, but 8th ed. is objectively much better and playable than any previous one, even now that it's just at the beginning. Before whining, wait and see the next codexes (Eldar incoming: I can already feel the paranoia ). Wait and see the coming Chapter Approved fixes. Wait, play, and READ the manuals properly before seeing the sky falling.

 feral_80 wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
I played my first game post AdMech codex against a Guard list with 8 Leman Russes, including Pask and another Tank Commander. [...]

I'd like to have T8 in my army too :/

Your good low-S weapons (phosphor, arc rifle) wound T8 at 5+, just like T7. Your good/excellent high-S weapons (lascannon/neutron laser) wound T8 at 3+, just like T7.
The only weapons to which LR T8 makes a difference are autocannons (rarely used) and torsion cannon (which is crap, never used). If you use a Knight there are a couple more possible possible weapons in this list, but still of limited use in most armies.

As AdMech, facing T8 does not really matter that much. I play AdMech too and my concerns are others.

I meant having T8 in my army to have more resilience, you're right it doesn't change anything for me when I do the shooting. We're clear on that point that's for sure.

Well take a Knight

Apart from that, if there is something I don't complain when playing AdMech, is the overall resistance of certain units no T8, but frankly we have some tough stuff nevertheless.

GhostRecon wrote:

Still doesn't support your 'free/infinite BS3+ LRBT' statement. And a basic Shadowsword costs 404pts so using 450pts and 2 HQ slots that need to get within 36" intact to cripple it seems pretty fair to me. Especially considering in a battlefield scenario at least one is likely to end up crippled by then - they are still T8 W12 Sv3+ models that don't benefit from 'Character' protection. 225pts that your opponent can focus his AT on.

'basic' shadowsword sure, but if you're burning so many points on a superheavy, you're as well fully tricking it out. Is that the minority opinion?

Still, fair point. They're not super heavy tier but they *are* in the top tier of points per wound on a lot of target profiles, quite apart from survivability.

GhostRecon wrote:

Just stating - doing so restricts the rest of your army choice. And it's still 12 6-guy squads with 3 PGs each - pretty fragile units. So sure it's a viable option, probably even a nasty list, but hardly proof positive that the Codex itself is broken. Compared to it being a good or strong Codex with at least one 'egregiously broken unit' and a handful of ones causing concern.

24" Stationary Cadian plasma gun SWTs pay 35~ points per median dead primaris before any other buffs - under the same condition 30 FRSR conscripts (assuming a 20pt officer) manage slightly over 28 when the order goes off and 46 when it doesn't. I've been searching *hard* for a better alternative as I hate painting infantry but (Cadian) SWT plasma really is up there.

SWT also have the benefit of being overkilled compared to conscripts which while situational can make a difference in comparing survivability - 3 5 man squads of primaris would unload on conscripts fruitfully, but against 2 sws, 2 of the marine squads would have to unload on one to kill it reliably outside of rapid fire, guaranteeing that the second would have at least one plasma gun before morale.

So far, everything i've been cooking up in my calculations/simulations comes out as 'IG are beyond any other race in raw damage output' and given 1. the amount of options they have to bypass the hard counters ( LOS etc) and 2. how it would appear 8th is still a shooting game, there's cause for concern at the very least.