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So in summary, the various Militant groups who control and lead Palestine are using their own citizens as meat shields for propaganda purposes.

Perhaps the critics of Israel here should devote part of their vitriol and criticism for the Leaders of Palestine who are deliberately getting their own people killed.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:


Perhaps the critics of Israel here should devote part of their vitriol and criticism for the Leaders of Palestine who are deliberately getting their own people killed.

We do, but I suppose some of us just don't see a modern democratic state with the 30ish odd strongest economy on the planet and a bunch of people in bombed out buildings as having the same level of political agency, and thus assign a lot more blame and condemnation accordingly when one of them kills four to five times as many people as the other in the world's longest and most violent game of red rover.

 LordofHats wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
Rocket fire is so "low casulty" because Israel preparations are extensive in defensive options for civilians.

They're low casualty because they're not particularly good rockets, and Israel has a multi-billion dollar flyswatter at the ready. Effort or lack there of isn't really the point. The point is that Palestine is like a fly facing a futuristic bug zapper, and in spite of that Israel feels the need to assert itself against that fly with every kind of bug spray it can muster and Palestinians that would know they can invoke that response on demand. The rockets are not about causing casualties anymore, and haven't been since at least the Second Intifada.

Today it's all about getting Israel in the news killing civilians and the disgusting part is how little the rest of the world cares that the MIT college grad is out punching the homeless in the balls with a rocket powered baseball bat (with stainless steel nails).

If terrorists/guerillas whatever were firing rockets into San Diego from Mexico we would respond with B1 strikes followed by the Marines invading Northern Mexico. *

If groups were firing into Russia they would have invaded with more tanks than God (I love that quote).

Don't India and Pakustan occasionally trade heavy artillery fire? I may be reflecting my age on that one.

* If they were firing into New Mexico we would complement them on their efforts to keep the radio active mutants under control.

it's much worse than that with regards to India and Pakistan


https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/ring-the-doorbell-and-run-here-is-how-nuclear-rivals-india-pakistan-harass-each-other/articleshow/63327292.cms
https://metro.co.uk/2018/03/16/india-and-pakistan-have-been-ringing-each-others-doorbells-and-running-away-7391879/

they've also been ringing each others doorbells really early in the AM/late at night and running away.


....

 LordofHats wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:


Perhaps the critics of Israel here should devote part of their vitriol and criticism for the Leaders of Palestine who are deliberately getting their own people killed.

We do, but I suppose some of us just don't see a modern democratic state with the 30ish odd strongest economy on the planet and a bunch of people in bombed out buildings as having the same level of political agency, and thus assign a lot more blame and condemnation accordingly when one of them kills four to five times as many people as the other in the world's longest and most violent game of red rover.

Just so. Neither one is a good guy but it's crazy to play the "both sides are equally bad" card when they're far from on equal footing. With great power comes great responsibility.

A person who brings a child to a violent protest is a bad person, but I'm not going to give a 50/50 blame division to the bad parent and a soldier who shoots a child.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
So in summary, the various Militant groups who control and lead Palestine are using their own citizens as meat shields for propaganda purposes.

Perhaps the critics of Israel here should devote part of their vitriol and criticism for the Leaders of Palestine who are deliberately getting their own people killed.

Except it usually works like this:

Israel kills people

Hamas gets people worked up over Israel killing people

Israel kills more people.

Hamas gets people worked up about it

ad infinitum


So, perhaps the critics of the Palestinians here reflect that before Hamas can do any of that, IDF has to commit horrific crimes for them to be indigent about in the first place?


In fact, I think, looking at the American response to just one kid being shot by a cop, Hamas shows remarkable restraint compared to what their reaction would be to a whole family being wiped out by police, or children used as human shields, like IDF has done many times, and continues to do despite Israel declaring that illegal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frazzled wrote:

If terrorists/guerillas whatever were firing rockets into San Diego from Mexico we would respond with B1 strikes followed by the Marines invading Northern Mexico.

And if those same Marines were gunning down Americans in the streets, see my above statement about cops shooting kids.

Maybe this is not getting through people's skulls, but I'll use your example and adjust for scale so you understand the difference between what you suggest the US would do and what Israel would do.

A check point guard would be shot by parties unknown. The US response would be to nuke Guadalajara. Survivors and relatives would fire rockets into the Mojave. The US would then butcher every man, woman and child in Northern Mexico.

Do you grasp that this level of response would be inappropriate?

 jhe90 wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
Rocket fire is so "low casulty" because Israel preparations are extensive in defensive options for civilians.

They're low casualty because they're not particularly good rockets, and Israel has a multi-billion dollar flyswatter at the ready. Effort or lack there of isn't really the point. The point is that Palestine is like a fly facing a futuristic bug zapper, and in spite of that Israel feels the need to assert itself against that fly with every kind of bug spray it can muster and Palestinians that would know they can invoke that response on demand. The rockets are not about causing casualties anymore, and haven't been since at least the Second Intifada.

Today it's all about getting Israel in the news killing civilians and the disgusting part is how little the rest of the world cares that the MIT college grad is out punching the homeless in the balls with a rocket powered baseball bat (with stainless steel nails).

The point is the sheer effort IDF and Israel has plowed into protecting its people.

And those rockets can pack at biggest up tp 144KG warheads. sure the basic is like 20 kg but that plus shrapnel in, and the rocket body is a perfectly deadly weapon if the IDF did not have such in depth defenses. Maybe not, but if they do get past, they could do plenty of harm.. there not exactly harmless.

Let's put this in perspective, more people were killed in this one protest event than have been killed by all Hamas rockets from Gaza in the last fifteen years.

Hamas has plowed there construction into attack tunnels, not rebuilding. lots to rebuild, yet they dig tunnels into israel with hundreds of tons concrete and steel.
THere money for war not there people.

Those tunnels aren't just "attack" vectors, a lot of those tunnel networks are economic in nature, given that Gaza is blockaded. But yes, Hamas absolutely does do these things, and nobody is denying that, only the proportion of the response.

 Vaktathi wrote:
But yes, Hamas absolutely does do these things, and nobody is denying that, only the proportion of the response.

It's like claiming that all of the death and destruction of WW1 was totally justified because Franz Ferdinand was shot.

 LordofHats wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:


Perhaps the critics of Israel here should devote part of their vitriol and criticism for the Leaders of Palestine who are deliberately getting their own people killed.

We do, but I suppose some of us just don't see a modern democratic state with the 30ish odd strongest economy on the planet and a bunch of people in bombed out buildings as having the same level of political agency, and thus assign a lot more blame and condemnation accordingly when one of them kills four to five times as many people as the other in the world's longest and most violent game of red rover.

Especially when there is no need for such criminal murder of civilians. Tear gas, water cannons and so forth, even rubber bullets are used the world over to stop potentially violent protests. So the question is why the Israel government thinks that one true method is to use lethal force. The reason being it gives them an excuse to continue the process of 'ethnic cleansing' of areas. They want Hamas to be in charge, because they know they will react aggressively because the populace think that is the only way to prevent them being oppressed (a natural instinct to fight back). The Israel military gun down hundreds of civilians, the populace demands a response, a few ineffectual rockets are fired, which gives the excuse to expand the borders for 'safety reasons', depopulate them, repopulate them and then start the cycle again. If all the protestors turned up stark naked with hands in the air then the Israeli military would still fire on them because it is part of a wider strategy and manipulation.

 Frazzled wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
Rocket fire is so "low casulty" because Israel preparations are extensive in defensive options for civilians.

They're low casualty because they're not particularly good rockets, and Israel has a multi-billion dollar flyswatter at the ready. Effort or lack there of isn't really the point. The point is that Palestine is like a fly facing a futuristic bug zapper, and in spite of that Israel feels the need to assert itself against that fly with every kind of bug spray it can muster and Palestinians that would know they can invoke that response on demand. The rockets are not about causing casualties anymore, and haven't been since at least the Second Intifada.

Today it's all about getting Israel in the news killing civilians and the disgusting part is how little the rest of the world cares that the MIT college grad is out punching the homeless in the balls with a rocket powered baseball bat (with stainless steel nails).

If terrorists/guerillas whatever were firing rockets into San Diego from Mexico we would respond with B1 strikes followed by the Marines invading Northern Mexico. *

It's interesting that you brought that now because Hamas has been shooting rockets from the Sinai for a while now and hasn't invaded Egypt yet.

On the contrary, they share intelligence with the Egyptians and they help each other. When ISIS got a bit too loud in the Sinai a few months back Israeli drones and helicopters made strikes against targets in Egyptian territory under Egyptian guidance.

Why work with Egypt on one hand and undermine Fatah to the point of throwing half of Palestinian people into Hamas' open arms? The answer is quite simple.

People still bring up Hamas shooting rockets as justification for the Israeli response should google what proportionality means in regards to the law and war.

I've not heard any of you guys express even a fraction of the vitriol you have for Israel, for the Palestinian Militants. I can't help but notice how you don't use the same emotive language when talking about Hamas et al that you use when talking about Israel's crimes. I'm not even arguing that they're equally to blame, obviously Israel is the First World democratic Nation, and must be held to higher stands than Palestine.

Your responses to me acknowledging that Palestine also deserves some criticism strike me as begrudging.

The stark difference in the tones and emotive language that you use when talking about Israel's crimes vs Palestine's crimes is very telling. Its very clear where your biases lie.

I don't know how to unpack that. You're saying that you concede they're not equally to blame and simultaneously complaining people aren't equally disdainful of their actions.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
I've not heard any of you guys express even a fraction of the vitriol you have for Israel, for the Palestinian Militants. I can't help but notice how you don't use the same emotive language when talking about Hamas et al that you use when talking about Israel's crimes. I'm not even arguing that they're equally to blame, obviously Israel is the First World democratic Nation, and must be held to higher stands than Palestine.

Your responses to me acknowledging that Palestine also deserves some criticism strike me as begrudging.

The stark difference in the tones and emotive language that you use when talking about Israel's crimes vs Palestine's crimes is very telling. Its very clear where your biases lie.

Yes, my biases lie with the oppressed peoples of the Earth. It isn't Hamas that has put people in a giant concentration camp because they want their land. It isn't Hamas that blockades the Palestinians to deprive them of medicine and food.


I am biased against genocidal states. Is this a problem?

As I said. Hamas is a terrorist organisation while Israel pretends to be a democratic law abiding country. I don't go after Hamas as much in this thread because it would be like raging about what Al Qeada does every time the US does something wrong. One side is already clearly labelled as such.

Hamas sends women and children to detonate suicide vests.
Hamas sends people to murder Israeli civilians and children in their beds at night.
Hamas fires rockets into Israel on a weekly basis.
Hamas indoctrinates Palestinianian children to hate Jews.

And yet you can't even muster up a teeny weeny bit of vitriol and emotive language when discussing the things that Hamas does.

This is a thread about Israel shooting 60 people and Hamas none though.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
This is a thread about Israel shooting 60 people and Hamas none though.

Where more the 50 of them were identified as Hamas terrorists.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
This is a thread about Israel shooting 60 people and Hamas none though.

60 people who Hamas deliberately sent to die. Thats how this tangent started.

60 people Hamas send to die and Israel willingly obliged to kill in violation of the law. Agian, one know terrorist organization, other pretend Western state.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 whembly wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
This is a thread about Israel shooting 60 people and Hamas none though.

Where more the 50 of them were identified as Hamas terrorists.

According to?

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

The stark difference in the tones and emotive language that you use when talking about Israel's crimes vs Palestine's crimes is very telling. Its very clear where your biases lie.

I don't deny I'm biased against Israel. For much the same reason I'm biased against Nazis. I despise anyone who rules through fear and murder, whether it's Hamas, Nazi Germany, Israel, or the United States. But Israel gets my goat the most, as they wave about how horrible the Nazis were, and how put upon they are, and then turn around and commit acts that belong more to something like Intelligenzaktion Pommern than modern COIN operations.

 BaronIveagh wrote:


I don't deny I'm biased against Israel. For much the same reason I'm biased against Nazis. I despise anyone who rules through fear and murder, whether it's Hamas, Nazi Germany, Israel, or the United States. [sni[]

I don't believe you.

 whembly wrote:

Where more the 50 of them were identified as Hamas terrorists.

Including one at the ripe old age of 3. The fact is that Israel is making gak up here. You may have noticed the first day of this butchery they put pictures up of all the Hamas terrorists they killed. The pictures didn't match some of the names, and in fact, a few were taken at the protest or from the victims social media pages.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

I don't believe you.

If you're implying I'm a liar, that's slander, not an argument.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
60 people Hamas send to die and Israel willingly obliged to kill in violation of the law. Agian, one know terrorist organization, other pretend Western state.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 whembly wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
This is a thread about Israel shooting 60 people and Hamas none though.

Where more the 50 of them were identified as Hamas terrorists.

According to?

According to Senior Hamas Official... here's the first 10 google links:
https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/palestinians/50-of-dead-in-gaza-protest-were-hamas-activists-says-hamas-official-1.6094899
https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-official-50-of-the-people-killed-in-gaza-riots-were-members/
https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-official-50-of-the-people-killed-in-gaza-riots-were-members/
https://www.thejc.com/news/world/senior-hamas-figure-admits-majority-of-gaza-border-deaths-were-terror-group-members-1.464210
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/hamas-says-most-protesters-killed-israel-gaza-were-members-n874906
https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/patrick-goodenough/senior-hamas-official-says-50-62-palestinians-killed-gaza-week-were
https://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/50-Hamas-members-reportedly-killed-during-Mondays-Gaza-protests-556627
https://nypost.com/2018/05/16/hamas-claims-most-killed-at-gaza-border-were-supporters/
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-hamas-gaza-israel-20180516-story.html
https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-5262470,00.html

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
And yet you can't even muster up a teeny weeny bit of vitriol and emotive language when discussing the things that Hamas does.

Seems like a truly, truly bizarre nitpick, but OK.

It was very, very bad for the Palestinians to have put civilians in harms way! They should feel terrible about that! The parents that brought young children to a situation in which their was a good chance of death or serious injury should feel very, very bad about what they did.

I mean, we agree, and stipulate, that what the Israelis did is an order of magnitude worse. Are you wanting us to soften that language? It was regretful that the Israelis killed those children? I certainly wish they wouldn't use excessive, disproportional force?

Do you see what a super, weird thing you are doing is? You're appear to literally be saying that one party acted worse, and you agree that is so, but we shouldn't emphasize that with our speech.

 whembly wrote:

According to Senior Hamas Official...

Dr. Salah Albardawil...

You take a guy who's job in Hamas is to spread misinformation to Europe and take his word as golden.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 whembly wrote:

According to Senior Hamas Official...

Dr. Salah Albardawil...

You take a guy who's job in Hamas is to spread misinformation to Europe and take his word as golden.

Why would he lie something like this?

Isn't it to their interest to claim they were ALL civvies?

 whembly wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
60 people Hamas send to die and Israel willingly obliged to kill in violation of the law. Agian, one know terrorist organization, other pretend Western state.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 whembly wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
This is a thread about Israel shooting 60 people and Hamas none though.

Where more the 50 of them were identified as Hamas terrorists.

According to?

According to Senior Hamas Official... here's the first 10 google links:
https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/palestinians/50-of-dead-in-gaza-protest-were-hamas-activists-says-hamas-official-1.6094899
https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-official-50-of-the-people-killed-in-gaza-riots-were-members/
https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-official-50-of-the-people-killed-in-gaza-riots-were-members/
https://www.thejc.com/news/world/senior-hamas-figure-admits-majority-of-gaza-border-deaths-were-terror-group-members-1.464210
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/hamas-says-most-protesters-killed-israel-gaza-were-members-n874906
https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/patrick-goodenough/senior-hamas-official-says-50-62-palestinians-killed-gaza-week-were
https://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/50-Hamas-members-reportedly-killed-during-Mondays-Gaza-protests-556627
https://nypost.com/2018/05/16/hamas-claims-most-killed-at-gaza-border-were-supporters/
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-hamas-gaza-israel-20180516-story.html
https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-5262470,00.html

So the man says they were Hamas members, not soldiers/militants, Hamas is a political party is Gaza as well.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Hamas sends women and children to detonate suicide vests.

Nope. The 2015 Ma'ale Adumim attempted bombing did involve a woman, but it was car bomb, and not Hamas that sent her.

The 2016 Bus bombing was a man, and the only person killed.

Point of fact, there's only been two Palestinian suicide bombings of any type in the last decade.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Hamas sends people to murder Israeli civilians and children in their beds at night.

I tried to find this, but I couldn't in the avalanche of Israelis murdering Palestinians in other countries.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Hamas fires rockets into Israel on a weekly basis.

There have been five attacks total this year. None of them hit anything other than an empty house.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Hamas indoctrinates Palestinian children to hate Jews.

That I have no doubt of, and dislike them for it.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 whembly wrote:

Why would he lie something like this?

Isn't it to their interest to claim they were ALL civvies?

No, but at the same time he doesn't say they were militants or in any way associated with Hamas militant wing. Remember, Hamas runs things from Charities to Garbage collection.

IDF figures that 25 might have been militants, and the rest were all civies. Which is pretty much in line with their usual 50% civilian casualty rate.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

The stark difference in the tones and emotive language that you use when talking about Israel's crimes vs Palestine's crimes is very telling. Its very clear where your biases lie.

I don't deny I'm biased against Israel. For much the same reason I'm biased against Nazis. I despise anyone who rules through fear and murder, whether it's Hamas, Nazi Germany, Israel, or the United States. But Israel gets my goat the most, as they wave about how horrible the Nazis were, and how put upon they are, and then turn around and commit acts that belong more to something like Intelligenzaktion Pommern than modern COIN operations.

OMG.... did you... did you just Godwin Israel??????



Oh thank you for that.

I am really enjoying this thread, awful as its impetus was.