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Disciple of Fate wrote: 60 people Hamas send to die and Israel willingly obliged to kill in violation of the law. Agian, one know terrorist organization, other pretend Western state.
I think you have to be careful with assuming just how far you can take this information. As pointed out before Hamas gains political points within its own supporters for claiming people died as martyrs and all that gack they spout. Hence it reinforces the doctrination. In the same way that shooting an ISIS terrorist can reinforce a belief that they are also martyrs. Not many people are going to sacrifice themselves for what is a political ideology if they come out and say there's nothing afterwards, bad luck for getting shot. We can't assume that an activist or supporter is a terrorist. The may be because they get access to better food, medical supplies, persuaded by pointing a gun at their children etc. Depending on the news propoganda they are shown they may not even know they are terrorist organisation. You can't just assume that by being a member that they are the same as the people that commit atrocities. People are individuals and should be treated as such.
A comparable example would be the NRA. Just because there are a few members that are nut cases, you don't send in the US military to wipe out the local meeting members because it's a just a bit too close to the local school. The assumption that because there a few nut cases in the NRA then live fire on the rest is fine because that makes them all guilty by association.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/20 21:17:57
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
Where more the 50 of them were identified as Hamas terrorists.
Including one at the ripe old age of 3. The fact is that Israel is making gak up here. You may have noticed the first day of this butchery they put pictures up of all the Hamas terrorists they killed. The pictures didn't match some of the names, and in fact, a few were taken at the protest or from the victims social media pages.
If you're implying I'm a liar, that's slander, not an argument.
That one was in doubt, two stories came out still sad.
One was the child had a pre existing illness, so why they took out to a protest of burning tyres and tear gas...
The other was caused by exposure to tear gas... Which begs why you take your 3 year old child to a protest you know where it could get nasty and there's a gak ton of tear gas, smoke and such in the air in first place. And close ernough to lines that your in the gas zones.
Either story plain sad but why would you take your child to a protest you know could turn nasty in seconds!
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
Where more the 50 of them were identified as Hamas terrorists.
Including one at the ripe old age of 3. The fact is that Israel is making gak up here. You may have noticed the first day of this butchery they put pictures up of all the Hamas terrorists they killed. The pictures didn't match some of the names, and in fact, a few were taken at the protest or from the victims social media pages.
If you're implying I'm a liar, that's slander, not an argument.
That one was in doubt, two stories came out still sad.
One was the child had a pre existing illness, so why they took out to a protest of burning tyres and tear gas...
The other was caused by exposure to tear gas... Which begs why you take your 3 year old child to a protest you know where it could get nasty and there's a gak ton of tear gas, smoke and such in the air in first place. And close ernough to lines that your in the gas zones.
Either story plain sad but why would you take your child to a protest you know could turn nasty in seconds!
Because Hamas brainwashes it's people that it is their absolute duty to do crap like this.
Their own damn charter states that that Judgement Day will not arrive until the Jews are all killed.
If you're implying I'm a liar, that's slander, not an argument.
Ha, so NOW you care about ad hominem? Not so nice is it, when its used against YOU? Keep that in mind in future, the next time you feel like throwing around accusations of racism willy nilly.
Edit: Some context, for the benefit of confused onlookers:
Xenomancers wrote: honestly don't care how desperate a people is - the true blind hate this culture has against Israel to elect hamas shows you exactly how this will end.
Yeahj, with Israel committing even greater war crimes while racists like you try to justify it with fantasies like that.
BTW: the Israeli press is running a story atm about how Hamas offered at least a cease fire, and the Israelis told them to go to hell. Tell me, who want's to murder whom again?
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: I've not heard any of you guys express even a fraction of the vitriol you have for Israel, for the Palestinian Militants. I can't help but notice how you don't use the same emotive language when talking about Hamas et al that you use when talking about Israel's crimes. I'm not even arguing that they're equally to blame, obviously Israel is the First World democratic Nation, and must be held to higher stands than Palestine.
Your responses to me acknowledging that Palestine also deserves some criticism strike me as begrudging.
The stark difference in the tones and emotive language that you use when talking about Israel's crimes vs Palestine's crimes is very telling. Its very clear where your biases lie.
That is probably because the Palestinian militants don't cause anywhere near the level of innocent casualties that the IDF does, combined with Israel being rightfully held to much higher standards than a bunch of terrorists. Now don't get me wrong. I don't have an ounce of sympathy for Palestinian terrorist organisations. I fully support Israel in its struggle against terrorism. I just don't support the methods that they use in that struggle. I think the methods they use are unworthy of a free, democratic nation such as Israel. And it is especially shocking because it is Israel, which has a history of persecution itself and which I like to think of as a wonderful example of development in the Middle East. To see them devolve into apartheid and ethnic cleansing just makes me really sad. Basically, the Palestinian terrorist's crimes are bad, but they are terrorists, so that is to be expected. So when Israel's crimes are actually worse than those of the terrorists they are fighting, that is really shocking, which leads to more emotion on my part. I guess I am more vitriolic towards Israel than to Hamas because I care more about Israel than I do about Hamas. I want to see Israel succeed and do well, and currently they are heading in the exact opposite direction of 'well'.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/20 22:05:19
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: I've not heard any of you guys express even a fraction of the vitriol you have for Israel, for the Palestinian Militants. I can't help but notice how you don't use the same emotive language when talking about Hamas et al that you use when talking about Israel's crimes. I'm not even arguing that they're equally to blame, obviously Israel is the First World democratic Nation, and must be held to higher stands than Palestine.
Your responses to me acknowledging that Palestine also deserves some criticism strike me as begrudging.
The stark difference in the tones and emotive language that you use when talking about Israel's crimes vs Palestine's crimes is very telling. Its very clear where your biases lie.
That is probably because the Palestinian militants don't cause anywhere near the level of innocent casualties that the IDF does, combined with Israel being rightfully held to much higher standards than a bunch of terrorists. Now don't get me wrong. I don't have an ounce of sympathy for Palestinian terrorist organisations. I fully support Israel in its struggle against terrorism. I just don't support the methods that they use in that struggle. I think the methods they use are unworthy of a free, democratic nation such as Israel. And it is especially shocking because it is Israel, which has a history of persecution itself and which I like to think of as a wonderful example of development in the Middle East. To see them devolve into apartheid and ethnic cleansing just makes me really sad.
Basically, the Palestinian terrorist's crimes are bad, but they are terrorists, so that is to be expected. So when Israel's crimes are actually worse than those of the terrorists they are fighting, that is really shocking, which leads to more emotion on my part. I guess I am more vitriolic towards Israel than to Hamas because I care more about Israel than I do about Hamas. I want to see Israel succeed and do well, and currently they are heading in the exact opposite direction of 'well'.
I am in total agreement with that comment.
This is not a situation that has been stumbled upon either, but a systemic long term policy. Israel does not want peace with Palestinains, they want for there to be no Palestinians. Slowly piece by piece the land is taken over, it is actually a Biblical principle from the Book of Joshua.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
No. But it was nice of you to gloat, and look like an even bigger hypocrite. Gonna address how reality eviscerated you on your other points? Or are you going to hide behind a single point now?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Palestinians are irrelevant now except as meat Shields. Israeli and Iranian forces are starting to regularly trade fire. They are ants in a ring where Giants are wrestling.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
No. But it was nice of you to gloat, and look like an even bigger hypocrite. Gonna address how reality eviscerated you on your other points? Or are you going to hide behind a single point now?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
The new charter explicitly mentions that it doesn't recognise the Sate of Israel or cede any rights (AKA rights of return) making in effect their recognition of the 1967 frontiers completly worthless. It's basically Hamas admitting that Israel control that territory, which they do and they don't need to say it. It's the statement of an evidence. With such statement, Netanyahu, despite being a warmonger of genocidal proportion and one of the most despicable political leader of Israel history, is right to say that this new charter is purely for show and look conciliant. Then again, all of the Hamas charters have been for show and ignored for convenience at various point in its history.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/21 06:34:45
No. But it was nice of you to gloat, and look like an even bigger hypocrite. Gonna address how reality eviscerated you on your other points? Or are you going to hide behind a single point now?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
The new charter explicitly mentions that it doesn't recognise the Sate of Israel or cede any rights (AKA rights of return) making in effect their recognition of the 1967 frontiers completly worthless. It's basically Hamas admitting that Israel control that territory, which they do and they don't need to say it. It's the statement of an evidence. With such statement, Netanyahu, despite being a warmonger of genocidal proportion and one of the most despicable political leader of Israel history, is right to say that this new charter is purely for show and look conciliant. Then again, all of the Hamas charters have been for show and ignored for convenience at various point in its history.
So wouldn't you agree that it'd be better for everyone that Gaza returns to a non-Islamist quasi-terrorist government?
Where more the 50 of them were identified as Hamas terrorists.
Including one at the ripe old age of 3. The fact is that Israel is making gak up here. You may have noticed the first day of this butchery they put pictures up of all the Hamas terrorists they killed. The pictures didn't match some of the names, and in fact, a few were taken at the protest or from the victims social media pages.
If you're implying I'm a liar, that's slander, not an argument.
That one was in doubt, two stories came out still sad.
One was the child had a pre existing illness, so why they took out to a protest of burning tyres and tear gas...
The other was caused by exposure to tear gas... Which begs why you take your 3 year old child to a protest you know where it could get nasty and there's a gak ton of tear gas, smoke and such in the air in first place. And close ernough to lines that your in the gas zones.
Either story plain sad but why would you take your child to a protest you know could turn nasty in seconds!
Because Hamas brainwashes it's people that it is their absolute duty to do crap like this.
Their own damn charter states that that Judgement Day will not arrive until the Jews are all killed.
True. The fact you would put your child at such risk boggles the mind. It's not like they did not know exactly what was going to happen...
No. But it was nice of you to gloat, and look like an even bigger hypocrite. Gonna address how reality eviscerated you on your other points? Or are you going to hide behind a single point now?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
The new charter explicitly mentions that it doesn't recognise the Sate of Israel or cede any rights (AKA rights of return) making in effect their recognition of the 1967 frontiers completly worthless. It's basically Hamas admitting that Israel control that territory, which they do and they don't need to say it. It's the statement of an evidence. With such statement, Netanyahu, despite being a warmonger of genocidal proportion and one of the most despicable political leader of Israel history, is right to say that this new charter is purely for show and look conciliant. Then again, all of the Hamas charters have been for show and ignored for convenience at various point in its history.
Window dressing. There true aims have not changed.
This is like the whole ISIS name game. They have not changed who they are deep down just repainted the gate.
Hamas only wants peace so it has time to prepare for wars.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/21 09:03:44
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
True. The fact you would put your child at such risk boggles the mind. It's not like they did not know exactly what was going to happen...
Knew it all and still did it.
How do you know this. You are looking at it from the blinkered perspective of our free press and more open reporting and hence assume that someone in Gaza *knew* what was going to happen? Yet their access to such information is likely much more restrictive both a from a poverty perspective and what is allowed to be broadcast. Such people are simply not going to be as aware of the wider picture. It's easy from our perspective to be critical of an individual based on our better knowledge of the political landscape. For all we know some of these people were just told that there was going to be free handouts of baby formula and so on.
We know Hamas is in effect a terrorist organisation. We can't do anything about that. Their support comes from people that think that they are the only option available to them. Mass shootings drives more people to being extremely anti-Israel because they think it is the only way to retaliate. To break Hamas that support needs to be broken and you can't do that using a barrel of a gun. We tried that with NI and it didn't work, it just made things worse.
Instead you need to bring people together to see that there is another way. Instead of shooting people you could use tear gas/water cannon on 'rowdy' sections but on peaceful queuing sections you hand out food, baby formula, medicines etc. In this way you break the cycle, no one comes away injured and the propoganda cycle works less because it breaks the narrative. You rinse and repeat. People start to recognise that there is another way that they can have better lives and that message from Hamas will be wrong. There will be casualties inevitably especially as Hamas try and break that approach as their influence waits and they get more desperate; but then that would just be as in any war. A case in point was a recent interview of someone in Afghanistan. 10 years ago after a terrorist attack it would the US/wests fault, yet in a recent attack somebody publicly condemned the terrorists and that they weren't part of what the country stood for showing a step change in people's perceptions as they got use to peace and that the other side wasn't the monster the terrorists groups made them out to be. This can break down walls and people can start to share the land equally and live happily amongst each other regardless of faith/colour/creed etc.
Hamas will not take this step because it breaks their influence. The issue with the Israeli government is that they are in a much better position to action this sort of message yet they generally fail to do so which any sensible western government would want to achieve to reduce innocent casualties. But they consistently fail to do so and in fact try and escalate the situation. That would indicate that they have only one motive and that is to ritually displace people so they can expand their own territory. However by doing so they continually escalate the level of violence in the region which just like in NI will result in a terrible human tragedy before anything is done.
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
True. The fact you would put your child at such risk boggles the mind. It's not like they did not know exactly what was going to happen...
Knew it all and still did it.
How do you know this. You are looking at it from the blinkered perspective of our free press and more open reporting and hence assume that someone in Gaza *knew* what was going to happen? Yet their access to such information is likely much more restrictive both a from a poverty perspective and what is allowed to be broadcast. Such people are simply not going to be as aware of the wider picture. It's easy from our perspective to be critical of an individual based on our better knowledge of the political landscape. For all we know some of these people were just told that there was going to be free handouts of baby formula and so on.
We know Hamas is in effect a terrorist organisation. We can't do anything about that. Their support comes from people that think that they are the only option available to them. Mass shootings drives more people to being extremely anti-Israel because they think it is the only way to retaliate. To break Hamas that support needs to be broken and you can't do that using a barrel of a gun. We tried that with NI and it didn't work, it just made things worse.
Instead you need to bring people together to see that there is another way. Instead of shooting people you could use tear gas/water cannon on 'rowdy' sections but on peaceful queuing sections you hand out food, baby formula, medicines etc. In this way you break the cycle, no one comes away injured and the propoganda cycle works less because it breaks the narrative. You rinse and repeat. People start to recognise that there is another way that they can have better lives and that message from Hamas will be wrong. There will be casualties inevitably especially as Hamas try and break that approach as their influence waits and they get more desperate; but then that would just be as in any war. A case in point was a recent interview of someone in Afghanistan. 10 years ago after a terrorist attack it would the US/wests fault, yet in a recent attack somebody publicly condemned the terrorists and that they weren't part of what the country stood for showing a step change in people's perceptions as they got use to peace and that the other side wasn't the monster the terrorists groups made them out to be. This can break down walls and people can start to share the land equally and live happily amongst each other regardless of faith/colour/creed etc.
Hamas will not take this step because it breaks their influence. The issue with the Israeli government is that they are in a much better position to action this sort of message yet they generally fail to do so which any sensible western government would want to achieve to reduce innocent casualties. But they consistently fail to do so and in fact try and escalate the situation. That would indicate that they have only one motive and that is to ritually displace people so they can expand their own territory. However by doing so they continually escalate the level of violence in the region which just like in NI will result in a terrible human tragedy before anything is done.
As a sidenote, Hamas doesn't only get support because people view them as the only way to fight back against Israel. The militant wing is just one part of Hamas. They also do a lot of charity and provide basic social services to poor people in Gaza (which in Gaza is pretty much everyone, thanks to Israel). That is also what gets them a lot of goodwill with the people of Gaza.
So - spouting the same religious drivel and a shared will to annihilate Israel - that has nothing to do with it? A likely story. Palestinians been attacking Israel since long before Hamas. Israel - being a member of the UN - has probably given 100 times the relief to the Palestinian people as Hamas. It's gotten them no where.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
You'd think Hamas using the people it claims to want to protect as human shields and firing from hospitals would balance that out...wouldn't it? Then again when you see it as martyrdom - you don't exactly see that as a bad thing - when you should.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Xenomancers wrote: So - spouting the same religious drivel and a shared will to annihilate Israel - that has nothing to do with it? A likely story. Palestinians been attacking Israel since long before Hamas. Israel - being a member of the UN - has probably given 100 times the relief to the Palestinian people as Hamas. It's gotten them no where.
Hrm, methinks we have an...uninformed view of Hamas.
Yes, Hamas does bad things, has deplorable rhetoric, has engaged in shocking acts of violence, and is full of terrible people.
That said, they're as popular as they are because it is Hamas men who come around and take away the garbage every week, it is Hamas who opened and runs the school your 6 year old goes to. It is Hamas to who runs the clinic on your block. Your unemployed neighbor affords food and rent because Hamas pays it. When Israel blockades Gaza by sea and Egypt closes their crossings, it is Hamas who smuggles in food. It's hard to be anti-Hamas for many at that point.
The overwhelming bulk of Hamas funding has historically gone to social services. There's a book by a dude named David Phillips called "from bullets to ballots" that details a lot of this, noting that during the 90's about 85% of its budget went to social services.
Then, when Fatah stands by or is incapable (as many outside powers have gone to great lengths to ensure), when the Israeli's erect walls, build settlements and outposts where they please, set up checkpoints and restrict movement between Palestinian towns, blockades Gaza, etc, the people they see fighting back (in their eyes at least) are the dudes from Hamas.
That's how they achieved power and where they draw their support from. Thats where they get recruits for the military wing.
Whether you agree with the rhetoric or not, those are powerful and *practical* draws.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
Xenomancers wrote: So - spouting the same religious drivel and a shared will to annihilate Israel - that has nothing to do with it? A likely story. Palestinians been attacking Israel since long before Hamas. Israel - being a member of the UN - has probably given 100 times the relief to the Palestinian people as Hamas. It's gotten them no where.
Hrm, methinks we have an...uninformed view of Hamas.
Yes, Hamas does bad things, has deplorable rhetoric, has engaged in shocking acts of violence, and is full of terrible people.
That said, they're as popular as they are because it is Hamas men who come around and take away the garbage every week, it is Hamas who opened and runs the school your 6 year old goes to. It is Hamas to who runs the clinic on your block. Your unemployed neighbor affords food and rent because Hamas pays it. When Israel blockades Gaza by sea and Egypt closes their crossings, it is Hamas who smuggles in food. It's hard to be anti-Hamas for many at that point.
The overwhelming bulk of Hamas funding has historically gone to social services. There's a book by a dude named David Phillips called "from bullets to ballots" that details a lot of this, noting that during the 90's about 85% of its budget went to social services.
Then, when Fatah stands by or is incapable (as many outside powers have gone to great lengths to ensure), when the Israeli's erect walls, build settlements and outposts where they please, set up checkpoints and restrict movement between Palestinian towns, blockades Gaza, etc, the people they see fighting back (in their eyes at least) are the dudes from Hamas.
That's how they achieved power and where they draw their support from. Thats where they get recruits for the military wing.
Whether you agree with the rhetoric or not, those are powerful and *practical* draws.
Serious question - have you reviewed Hamas ledgers? How do you know anything about what Hamas spends it's money on? It's MFing terrorist organization. Not to say they don't hand out food and stuff - that is a great way to recruit more terrorist - I am not going to argue they don't do that but come on...where are you getting these %ages. Is there any way that is actually real data? I really don't think so.
The point I am making though is. Hamas practices the use of human shields - fires from schools and hospitals. Yet they still have the support of most palestinians. Why? Religious extremism. In the end - that is the most important factor here and no amount of good will, playing nice, ect is going to make any difference. Israel has come to terms with that. The west - has not. It really is time we come to terms with that. You can not reason with religious extremism.
Not to say Israel doesn't have it's share of religious extremist - Israel is set up as a Jewish state (which I don't agree with). You just don't see any Israelis using Civilians as human shields - true they don't need to - but they also know - it wouldn't work - they would just shoot through the civilians without hesitation.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Xeno... i think Vaktathi's point is that the Hamas does tangible real world things for them... hence their support. Not necessarily just because of religious extremism.
Most people are pragmatic... hence the whole mindset of "yeah... Hitler and Mussolini were bad... but, at least the trains ran on time".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/21 17:01:34
Hamas also murders anyone who disagrees so there's that.
Alternatively hard to have a government in that situation.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
It's also pretty pitiful to credit Hamas with that Aid. True most Palestinians probably don't know this but a huge chunk of Hamas money comes from foreign aid - hamas gives the people just enough to survive and spends the rest on weapons and to fund terrorism in other places. Hamas is exploiting Palestinians on a regular basis.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Serious question - have you reviewed Hamas ledgers? How do you know anything about what Hamas spends it's money on?
No, but I havent reviewed the sum total US/EU/Russian/etc budgets either. I referenced figures from those who professionally study this sort of thing and who would have access to the information.
It's MFing terrorist organization.
sure, that doesnt mean those other things arent also true.
Not to say they don't hand out food and stuff - that is a great way to recruit more terrorist - I am not going to argue they don't do that but come on...where are you getting these %ages.
I directly gave you the name of a book and author...
Is there any way that is actually real data? I really don't think so.
Well, if you have any countersources to debate and review, I'm happy to discuss them.
The point I am making though is. Hamas practices the use of human shields - fires from schools and hospitals. Yet they still have the support of most palestinians. Why? Religious extremism. In the end - that is the most important factor here and no amount of good will, playing nice, ect is going to make any difference. Israel has come to terms with that. The west - has not. It really is time we come to terms with that. You can not reason with religious extremism.
Lets be a little realistic about this.
First, when you're at a massive material, technological, logistical, organizational, informational, industrial, and agricultural disadvantage, that leaves you with limited options. We see human shields, randomly aimed rocket attacks, and suicide bombings as unconsciounable things. Well, it's not like the Palestinians have any other tools at their disposal given the above disadvantages. When people have little to lose and few tools, they find such things less abhorrent than they would otherwise, Religious extremism is just the vehicle at that point, not the driver.
As for firing from hospitals and crowded urban areas and whatnot, again, by Western standards, thats deplorable, and rightly so. However, from the Palestinian perspective, again holding all the above disadvantages true, well, these become...less so. No force dealing with all the above disadvantages is going to go out and fight a pitched battle it will lose totally, immediately, and decisively. They are fighting by pretty standard urban partisan tactics here, the same sort of stuff seen in Poland and the USSR during WW2 or in Vietnam and dozens of other conflicts and absolutely seen in Iraq and Afghanistan and Syria on *all* sides. Similarly, also its not like theres much room to manuever, particularly in Gaza. Gaza is a tiny area, 141 square miles, look at it on Google Earth, there's very little open area that isnt near civilian structures, and the place has a higher population density than Chicago.
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whembly wrote:Xeno... i think Vaktathi's point is that the Hamas does tangible real world things for them... hence their support. Not necessarily just because of religious extremism.
Most people are pragmatic... hence the whole mindset of "yeah... Hitler and Mussolini were bad... but, at least the trains ran on time".
^
We don't have to like Hamas, but there are practical reasons why they enjoy support. They may be counterproductive and self destructive in the long run, but when you're more worried about making rent and eating, you're probably not gonna hassle the dudes who are paying your rent.
Frazzled wrote:Hamas also murders anyone who disagrees so there's that.
Alternatively hard to have a government in that situation.
Also this.
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IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
Xenomancers wrote: It's also pretty pitiful to credit Hamas with that Aid. True most Palestinians probably don't know this but a huge chunk of Hamas money comes from foreign aid - hamas gives the people just enough to survive and spends the rest on weapons and to fund terrorism in other places. Hamas is exploiting Palestinians on a regular basis.
You really should get your sources straight on that.
Hamas filled the void between an ineffective Palestinian authority and an unwilling Israeli state to provide for the people who lived in the Palestinian limbo (especially in Gaza, as I've mentioned previously on this thread the West Bank has something more resembling a functioning economy).
When poor Palestinians wanted education, healthcare, food or housing Hamas was the only one who provided it for them. Hell, at the beginning Hamas was propped up and received Israeli funds purely on the basis that it was a counterweight to the secular PA (run by then PLO, that later became Fatah) and Israel was totally cool with keeping the Palestinians divided and thus weak.
And Hamas can't receive a penny in foreign aid, because it's considered a terror organisation by just about everyone in the planet. It depends on Qatari and Iranian funds (as well as wealthy individuals in UAE, KSA, etc.)
Hamas started and for the most part is a giant welfare organisation with a military wing.
You don't think Hamas gets it's hands on the money going to the PA?
I could post literally hundreds of posts to the effect but I don't know which one would suit your fancy.
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If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
I think that a certain amount of historical perspective should be retained here.
In 2006, Hezbollah lobbed literally thousands of missiles into Israel, killing several dozen and wounding literally thousands. In 2008, there were rocket attacks around the clock from Hamas for a number of months, with about half that number of casualties again. In other words, the relative immunity of Israel to this form of attack thanks to their multi-billion dollar defences is actually reasonably new. I've been posting on Dakka for longer than they've had time to start feeling reasonably secure.
Frankly, even if I was fine and everyone else I knew was completely safe too; sending me scrambling for a bomb shelter four times a week for six months would not engender me to look charitably upon the groups responsible. And I doubt many Israelis are in such a wonderful position as that.
http://uk.businessinsider.com/a-look-inside-israels-bomb-shelters-photos-2014-8
So yes. I agree with BaronIveagh's original point about how the Israeli response to this border incursion thing was disproportionate. I agree that frankly, the actions of the Israeli military are waaaay out of line (that sniper video was disgusting), and that yes, Israel should be held to a higher standard that bleeding Hamas (who really are several degrees worse). I condemn it utterly on grounds of moral irresponsibility that these soldiers who are heavily equipped and safe from retribution are sitting there taking bloody pot shots! There's no way to handwave or justify that away. It's disgusting and should be judged accordingly.
At the same time I am keenly aware however, that moral judgements on the internet a continent away detached from all context are extremely easy. And that had I been in Israel since 2000 enduring the kind of tit for tat casualties and hatred, having endured hundreds of collective hours sitting in a shelter and waiting for an all clear; I would likely have a very different and far more laissez-faire perspective on the whole thing. Because that's morality for you; generally subjective based on our own experiences and perceptions.
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Xenomancers wrote: You just don't see any Israelis using Civilians as human shields - true they don't need to - but they also know - it wouldn't work - they would just shoot through the civilians without hesitation.
IDF Soldiers Convicted of Using 11-year-old as Human Shield in Gaza
Also, just because a political party has a militant wing, does not mean you should not engage politically in order to resolve the conflict.
Sinn Fein was the political wing of the IRA, yet when they and the UK government sat down and actually negotiated, in good faith, a resolution that was satisfactory to both sides, that militant organisation disappeared (for the most part, there were splinter factions) and Sinn Fein just became a political party.
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The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
Xenomancers wrote: You just don't see any Israelis using Civilians as human shields - true they don't need to - but they also know - it wouldn't work - they would just shoot through the civilians without hesitation.
IDF Soldiers Convicted of Using 11-year-old as Human Shield in Gaza
And they condemn and punish their own for doing so in the rare cases it occurs. This more of less strengthens my argument.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
And they condemn and punish their own for doing so in the rare cases it occurs. This more of less strengthens my argument.
No, your argument was that Israeli's don't do that. But they do.
Punishing them after the fact is not good enough. Israel's approach has created the environment and mindset that leads to such practices, along with trained soldiers laughing and filming shooting unarmed people, including reporters and children.
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The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
And they condemn and punish their own for doing so in the rare cases it occurs. This more of less strengthens my argument.
No, your argument was that Israeli's don't do that. But they do.
Punishing them after the fact is not good enough. Israel's approach has created the environment and mindset that leads to such practices, along with trained soldiers laughing and filming shooting unarmed people, including reporters and children.
A few Israelis have done that - it is not policy - they condemn it. It is expected some people will misbehave in war. You could find equally atrocious acts in any modern military - what matters is how these countries deal with it when it happens and it's proven to be true.
It is very true that Israel does not practice the use of human shields. It's intellectually dishonest to say that they do.
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If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Xenomancers wrote: You don't think Hamas gets it's hands on the money going to the PA?
Israel collects all the big ticket taxes for the PA. Payroll, all business related, property, etc. I'm sure that if you have any indication that they're financing Hamas they'll be thrilled to know.
Now, if you mean that some public servant that happens to be a Hamas member gets paid through the Israeli tax service, then that's probably true. Will they skim off the top of many things going to Gaza? of course they will. But that's peanuts on the grand scheme of things.
Actually the recent Hamas approach to Fatah (leading to a sort-of truce between them) is basically because Hamas was running dry after the Qatari tap closed.
Oh, and on the issue of human shields, some reading.
www.btselem.org/human_shields
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Not so nice is it, when its used against YOU? Keep that in mind in future, the next time you feel like throwing around accusations of racism willy nilly.
