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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Charistoph wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I only have a slight nitpick about this. For older editions, you typically jumped from AP4 to AP2 for assessing a weapons value. Most stuff made specifically with AP3 in mind we're usually too expensive, but grabbing just some cheap AP2 worked fine, since obviously you wanted cheap and for it to work against anything.

Actually AP3 was one of the rarest values in the game. It's not because it was too expensive, it just wasn't as available and/or on anti-Vehicle weaponry. In Imperium weapons AP3 was Krak Missiles and artillery. Meanwhile, also readily available was Plasma, Melta, and Rending weapons. Even as you look across the Xenos weaponry, it remains the same. It changed a little bit when Power Swords became AP:3, but that tended to be the most common version by a long shot when looking at taking out Infantry.

It could be really expensive for the purpose it served though. Look at Rubrics, Vespid, Scions (though they could pack up on weapons like nobody's business so it kinda evened out), Banshees, and I know for a fact I'm missing a few. GW would literally price stuff as "hey look it'll kill those pesky Marines because AP3!" and then ignore the fact those units weren't great anyway.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

Insectum7 wrote:Imo the issue stems from the proliferation of high-AP weapons that began around 5th edition. Prior to that it was actually pretty difficult to amass lots of high-AP weapons, and especially difficult to amass them on durable platforms. This meant that in most firefights against "normal" units, the 3+ save was still quite valuable, and there was an ability for a Marine player to focus counterplay against the high-AP weapons.

5th edition began to open up high AP weapons in a big way, and Marines were no exception. Case in point, a 4th Edition Marine Veteran Squad was basically a Tactical Squad with +1 Ld. and +1 Attack. For 5th Edition they became what we know as Sternguard. . . who can give EVERY model a Combi-weapon, and who could also bring Specialist ammunition with AP3. (A similar thing happened to Command Squads/Company Veterans). Models like Riptides started showing up, very durable units with gobs of high AP firepower. (In addition, 5th ed brought TLOS, increasing visibility on a lot more tables.) Naturally people brought more of these high-AP weapons, and the 3+ save suffered as a result.

The proliferation of high-AP weapons has stuck. During 8th I found I could fairly easily build an army that could deliver 90+ AP-3 shots using a combination of Plasma and Grav. This could all be BS3+ with Chapter Master rerolls and Lt. rerolls if I coordinated it right. It was an absolutely stupid level of firepower against a 3+ save army.


I played Guard and Tyranids in 4th Ed. Tyranids have always suffered for AP (I mean, we had Rending Claws, but Genestealers were mediocre after the rip-roaring good time that was index-era 3rd, where they counted as power weapons...), but my Guard were packed to the brim with plasma guns. Every 80pt and then 60pt squad of Guardsmen was toting a plasma gun, the command squads had plasma guns, the Leman Russes had AP3 pie plates, the Veterans had meltaguns. I had AP3 or better pouring out of every group of dudes or self-propelled vehicle.

I know Guard were special in just how much firepower they could take, but it's not like Guard were a negligible part of the player base. I think you're right though about later editions adding to the amount of AP3 firepower that could be taken, especially once they started adding superheavies, bigger battlesuits, and Knights to the mix. Special forces dudes with armor that makes them nigh-immune to small arms sure start to seem vulnerable when they're getting shot at by aircraft and battlemechs, don't they? This axe is getting pretty sharp by now.

Xenomancers wrote:Plus we also did comparison to assault intercessors (an inferior unit practically no one takes)The choppy boys still outperform them damage wise without any gimmicks. That is the point.


So... the point was that Slugga Boyz barely out-damage 'an inferior unit practically no one takes', and actually lose by a slight margin when they go head to head? That was the point? Okay sure I guess.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/04/23 02:18:53


 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 catbarf wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:Imo the issue stems from the proliferation of high-AP weapons that began around 5th edition. Prior to that it was actually pretty difficult to amass lots of high-AP weapons, and especially difficult to amass them on durable platforms. This meant that in most firefights against "normal" units, the 3+ save was still quite valuable, and there was an ability for a Marine player to focus counterplay against the high-AP weapons.

5th edition began to open up high AP weapons in a big way, and Marines were no exception. Case in point, a 4th Edition Marine Veteran Squad was basically a Tactical Squad with +1 Ld. and +1 Attack. For 5th Edition they became what we know as Sternguard. . . who can give EVERY model a Combi-weapon, and who could also bring Specialist ammunition with AP3. (A similar thing happened to Command Squads/Company Veterans). Models like Riptides started showing up, very durable units with gobs of high AP firepower. (In addition, 5th ed brought TLOS, increasing visibility on a lot more tables.) Naturally people brought more of these high-AP weapons, and the 3+ save suffered as a result.

The proliferation of high-AP weapons has stuck. During 8th I found I could fairly easily build an army that could deliver 90+ AP-3 shots using a combination of Plasma and Grav. This could all be BS3+ with Chapter Master rerolls and Lt. rerolls if I coordinated it right. It was an absolutely stupid level of firepower against a 3+ save army.


I played Guard and Tyranids in 4th Ed. Tyranids have always suffered for AP (I mean, we had Rending Claws, but Genestealers were mediocre after the rip-roaring good time that was index-era 3rd, where they counted as power weapons...), but my Guard were packed to the brim with plasma guns. Every 80pt and then 60pt squad of Guardsmen was toting a plasma gun, the command squads had plasma guns, the Leman Russes had AP3 pie plates, the Veterans had meltaguns. I had AP3 or better pouring out of every group of dudes or self-propelled vehicle.

I know Guard were special in just how much firepower they could take, but it's not like Guard were a negligible part of the player base. I think you're right though about later editions adding to the amount of AP3 firepower that could be taken, especially once they started adding superheavies, bigger battlesuits, and Knights to the mix. Special forces dudes with armor that makes them nigh-immune to small arms sure start to seem vulnerable when they're getting shot at by aircraft and battlemechs, don't they? This axe is getting pretty sharp by now.


Iirc the thing about Guard in 4th is that aside from their tanks (of which they could only have 3*), their access to high AP was very not-durable. And Transports were tricky business for delivering them into short range where they could really bring damage to bear. There is clear planning for delivery as well as counterplay opportunity when dealing with Vets and Command Squads. Spamming plasma in Infantry Squads was also not particularly threatening (not ineffective mind you) as Guardsmen died plenty fine in firefights with Marines. There's a really accessible "dialogue" between the basic units involved in those firefights. Essentially the saving grace is that a simple Assault Squad with two Flamers could butcher Guardsmen in droves. Or a good Whirlwind hit (killing dudes, Pinning units) Like, a Tac Squad wasn't helpless in the face of an incoming Command Squad.

There's much less "dialogue" in Drop Podding Sternguard or having to deal with a Riptide or two (or three). Even the IG tanks you could find a reprieve by Stunning it, and you could flank the thing for a better chance to affect it. Against a Riptide, a Tac Squad really was basically helpless. It's a combination of MOAR AP but at the same time reducing counterplay opportunities that broke the system, imo.


*and before you say it , yes the Armored Company list existed in 4th. But it was a "by permission only" iirc and not standard play. 5th Ed brought the notorious Leafblower though, lol.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/23 06:01:30


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in fr
Mutilatin' Mad Dok






Welcome the new (and hopefully short) reign of Drukari, and say goodbye to the SM boogeyman era (which for me ended long ago but whatever)

Ere we go ere we go ere we go
Corona Givin’ Umies Da good ol Krulpin they deserve huh huh 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 addnid wrote:
Welcome the new (and hopefully short) reign of Drukari, and say goodbye to the SM boogeyman era (which for me ended long ago but whatever)

It ended before 9th started.


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Xenomancers wrote:
 addnid wrote:
Welcome the new (and hopefully short) reign of Drukari, and say goodbye to the SM boogeyman era (which for me ended long ago but whatever)

It ended before 9th started.



Not really, but it did end when the SM codex came out.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 addnid wrote:
Welcome the new (and hopefully short) reign of Drukari, and say goodbye to the SM boogeyman era (which for me ended long ago but whatever)


Thats true, anyone who has a drukhari opponent who owns 600$ of wrack squads specifically is in for a really bad time.

Show of hands? Opponents who own 40+ wracks in real life?

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in ca
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






 the_scotsman wrote:
 addnid wrote:
Welcome the new (and hopefully short) reign of Drukari, and say goodbye to the SM boogeyman era (which for me ended long ago but whatever)


Thats true, anyone who has a drukhari opponent who owns 600$ of wrack squads specifically is in for a really bad time.

Show of hands? Opponents who own 40+ wracks in real life?


well considering theres a pandemic going on right now, its easy for anyone to play anything on TTS.

But i'm a drukhari player that when i started (in 8th) wanted to have a coven/wych army with wracks/talos/grotesques as objective holders and jetbikes/hellions as harassment units. Sadly, it wasnt possible without taxing myself with useless HQs so i never went for it and now my love for this game has kind of lowered ever since i found more solid alternatives. I'd still go for a mass wrack list (if only they were cheaper). I'm at 20 wracks owned right now

Admech Lucius
Drukhari
Craftworld Yme-Loc
Thousand sons
Tzeentch Demons
Slaanesh Demons
Night Lords
Imperial knights

 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 the_scotsman wrote:
 addnid wrote:
Welcome the new (and hopefully short) reign of Drukari, and say goodbye to the SM boogeyman era (which for me ended long ago but whatever)


Thats true, anyone who has a drukhari opponent who owns 600$ of wrack squads specifically is in for a really bad time.

Show of hands? Opponents who own 40+ wracks in real life?

I have been trying to get wracks for a while. They were OP even before the codex came out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Quasistellar wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 addnid wrote:
Welcome the new (and hopefully short) reign of Drukari, and say goodbye to the SM boogeyman era (which for me ended long ago but whatever)

It ended before 9th started.



Not really, but it did end when the SM codex came out.

Same thing - there where no games being played except in your garage before marine codex came out really.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/23 15:37:57


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Wild, so youre saying theres some kind of fundamental difference in the amount of bad games an OP unit causes when it's a thing you need to buy ~12 50$-for-5 kits for relatively obscure faction than when that op unit is for an army everybody owns and you get them in the starter set for the game?

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets





 the_scotsman wrote:
Wild, so youre saying theres some kind of fundamental difference in the amount of bad games an OP unit causes when it's a thing you need to buy ~12 50$-for-5 kits for relatively obscure faction than when that op unit is for an army everybody owns and you get them in the starter set for the game?
Obscure faction? Wracks used to be commonly used back in 5th+ for their durability and liquifiers. For those just getting into them it's a bit obscure yes but old DE should have plenty.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Obscure faction? Wracks used to be commonly used back in 5th+ for their durability and liquifiers. For those just getting into them it's a bit obscure yes but old DE should have plenty.


I feel safe in saying most DE players haven't been hoarding liquifier-armed Wracks from almost 10 years ago.

Annoyingly they weren't hard to get in the UK when the Codex dropped - but over the last couple of weeks have vanished from all stores.

Oh well. Probably best not to blow a few hundred quid on an army I'd play a few times, then inevitably be soft-banned from playing outside a tournament and will I think inevitably suffer GSC level nerfs once GW hears the cries of the Marine players.

Wracktide is sort of cool as a concept even without DT liquifier spam. Unfortunately though without it I don't think you have enough teeth to really do anything.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Liquifier spam appears to be unpopular on the tables. I would think people would find proxies if it was the most effective DE list. I'm also not entirely sure a list from a very old book that took 500 points of Zoan that were gone by turn 2 is a good barometer. Especially that even though the DE player tabled him it was still a low scoring game. There were a lot of sacrifices on primary points there.

   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
Wild, so youre saying theres some kind of fundamental difference in the amount of bad games an OP unit causes when it's a thing you need to buy ~12 50$-for-5 kits for relatively obscure faction than when that op unit is for an army everybody owns and you get them in the starter set for the game?
Obscure faction? Wracks used to be commonly used back in 5th+ for their durability and liquifiers. For those just getting into them it's a bit obscure yes but old DE should have plenty.


Yeah, given that they tend to hover around a 1-3% playrate I'd say Drukhari are relatively unusual, and Wracks are

1) the most recent plastic troop kit
2) the most expensive plastic troop kit by far (and the kit only comes with 1 liquifier IIRC)
3) equipped differently from the most common wrack build of the past 4 editions (which was generallly Ossefactor or Oss+Hex)
4) the only subfaction that has never ever featured in any kind of bundle discount for drukhari (neither of the 2 start collecting boxes, nor blood of the pheonix, nor the new Combat Patrol box, nor Gangs of Commorragh)

In my 14 years playing I've played against 4 dark eldar players besides myself, none of whom had any significant amount of haemie coven representation in their lists (all generally either leaned hard into wych cults or into kabals)

It's like that little time window when Vaul's Wrath Artillery thingies were the most busted 58% wr eldar list. How many people actually played against that one before 9th dropped and made them worthless again? Anyone actually IRL and not on TTS?

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 the_scotsman wrote:

2) the most expensive plastic troop kit by far (and the kit only comes with 1 liquifier IIRC)
Eh? I see Wracks at $36US for 5 while Necron Immortals are at $38 for 5 and Tyranid Warriors are at $55 for 3!

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Insectum7 wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:

2) the most expensive plastic troop kit by far (and the kit only comes with 1 liquifier IIRC)
Eh? I see Wracks at $36US for 5 while Necron Immortals are at $38 for 5 and Tyranid Warriors are at $55 for 3!


Sorry, to clarify: For dark eldar. They're twice as expensive as wyches and kabalites which are 10 for the same price point (and also vastly more poseable, fething wracks even have monopose arms that can only go on one way)

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 the_scotsman wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:

2) the most expensive plastic troop kit by far (and the kit only comes with 1 liquifier IIRC)
Eh? I see Wracks at $36US for 5 while Necron Immortals are at $38 for 5 and Tyranid Warriors are at $55 for 3!


Sorry, to clarify: For dark eldar. They're twice as expensive as wyches and kabalites which are 10 for the same price point (and also vastly more poseable, fething wracks even have monopose arms that can only go on one way)
Ahh gotcha gotcha.

Yeah I do hate the five for 35-40 for a number of models. The five-box Dire Avengers for Eldar really bugs me, and Immortals. . . not a lot of options or posing to do there.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 the_scotsman wrote:
 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
Wild, so youre saying theres some kind of fundamental difference in the amount of bad games an OP unit causes when it's a thing you need to buy ~12 50$-for-5 kits for relatively obscure faction than when that op unit is for an army everybody owns and you get them in the starter set for the game?
Obscure faction? Wracks used to be commonly used back in 5th+ for their durability and liquifiers. For those just getting into them it's a bit obscure yes but old DE should have plenty.


Yeah, given that they tend to hover around a 1-3% playrate I'd say Drukhari are relatively unusual, and Wracks are

1) the most recent plastic troop kit
2) the most expensive plastic troop kit by far (and the kit only comes with 1 liquifier IIRC)
3) equipped differently from the most common wrack build of the past 4 editions (which was generallly Ossefactor or Oss+Hex)
4) the only subfaction that has never ever featured in any kind of bundle discount for drukhari (neither of the 2 start collecting boxes, nor blood of the pheonix, nor the new Combat Patrol box, nor Gangs of Commorragh)

In my 14 years playing I've played against 4 dark eldar players besides myself, none of whom had any significant amount of haemie coven representation in their lists (all generally either leaned hard into wych cults or into kabals)

It's like that little time window when Vaul's Wrath Artillery thingies were the most busted 58% wr eldar list. How many people actually played against that one before 9th dropped and made them worthless again? Anyone actually IRL and not on TTS?
I have 9 D cannons. Very few have more than 3 artillery though.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

For cheap wracks but still WYSIWYG and 100% GW plastic get the 20man box of fantasy ghouls. Combined with spared blades and other bitz from wyches, kabalites, etc.. and maybe some green stuff (not mandatory though) they make a perfect conversion for wracks and 20 models are just slightly more expensive than 5 original wracks.


 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Blackie wrote:
For cheap wracks but still WYSIWYG and 100% GW plastic get the 20man box of fantasy ghouls. Combined with spared blades and other bitz from wyches, kabalites, etc.. and maybe some green stuff (not mandatory though) they make a perfect conversion for wracks and 20 models are just slightly more expensive than 5 original wracks.


Ew. Imma stick with my Edge Miniatures wracks thst cost 25c/per to print.

Bigger, beefier wracks with actual pose variety, male and female models, gun wracks actually holding and aiming their guns, weapons separated at the wrists not the shoulder so that any torso can be given any weapon, and I can mirror any bit I want and make any weapon combination I want.


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
 
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