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So, my understanding of chaos seems a lot different then the one endorsed by most lore (so double heresy?). Most of my ideas about Chaos have been shaped by the Black Library novels i've read (focus on Graham McNeil and Dan Abnett), as well as outside influences (like Lovecraft), and not by codices/army books.

Since the Chaos Gods exist outside our narrow understanding of space-time, i tend to think that they have always existed. This has been hinted to by the Omphalos Daemonium (in Dead Sky Black Sun) who made several comments about our material universe being a temporary state, vomited forth from the warp. Also, in Hereticus (from the Eisenhorn series), Cherubael says that the demi-god Yssarile went to war against his patron god, who was a great sorcerer (so, Tzeentch). Since this happened millions of years ago, Tzeentch must in fact be far older then mankind, even though other sources of lore say that the chaos gods didn't gain consciousness until just after the Emperor was born...around BC 8,000 in most sources.

Perhaps the gods did exist before all this, but they had yet to turn there attention towards humanity? Perhaps gods only 'awaken' from one races point of view once they take notice of that species...perhaps once that race reaches some level of psychic connection to the warp. This could be why the Tau lack a lot of knowledge about chaos...they are a psychically null race. They may have encountered servants of the gods, both mortal and daemonic, but they are totally immune to the corruptions (and temptations) of the warp.

Even Slaanesh, in my view, is eternal. Though he was born of the Eldars' lust in the 30th millennium, since he exists outside our understanding of time....once he was born in one time, he existed through ALL times in all realms. Perhaps this is how all the gods are. Once born, they would have always existed.

I also believe that the Chaos Gods in 40k are the same as exist in Fantasy. They exist outside all universes, and thus are also connected to every one (and what is fantasy if not an alternate reality?). Again, in Dead Sky Black Sun, the Omphalos Daemonium speaks of traveling the warp as moving through a space surrounded by shards of a broken mirror, an 'in between' space that isn't a space. Each shard being its own self-contained existence, its own universe. A clumsy allegory to be sure, but how else would a truly eternal warp entity describe something like the mechanics of the warp to two mortal beings (in this case the Ultramarines Uriel Ventris and Pasanius Lysane) that fundamentally lack the capacity to understand, even at its most basic level?

Think of the tesseract. If a square is the 'square' projection of a 1-dimensional line across the 2nd dimension, and a cube is the square projection of a square across the 3rd dimension...a tesseract is the square projection of a cube into a further 4th dimension. Now picture that. Really you cant, no one can. We can see approximations that have been 'dumbed down' to a dimensionallity we can understand (check out the wikipedia entry on tesseracts), but we dont have the perspective to picture that along a fourth axis. (And yes, i do come from a math background)

I had other points to make in this argument (essay? mad ramble?), but i've forgotten them at the moment, as i have an angry commissar telling me to...slowly....back away...from...the........keyboard........but....

***BLAM!***

[Transmission ends]

Don't try to understand Chaos, that is the path of madness.

No, the Chaos Gods were created by (among other races) the thoughts and feelings of humans. The exception being Slaanesh, who was created in the 30,000s by the Eldar and all their raping and pillaging. So no, they haven't always existed.

DeadlySquirrel wrote:No, the Chaos Gods were created by (among other races) the thoughts and feelings of humans. The exception being Slaanesh, who was created in the 30,000s by the Eldar and all their raping and pillaging. So no, they haven't always existed.

The OP says this much.

But what he is saying is that time is irrelevant in the Warp as it flows backwards and forwards, there is no meaning to time. So the Dark Prince was born by the fall of the Eldar true, but he has always existed, as with the other Chaos Gods. Certain events might have bought them into being, but they have always been.

Confusing fo shizzle ...

Sanity is for the weak!

Pilau Rice wrote:

DeadlySquirrel wrote:No, the Chaos Gods were created by (among other races) the thoughts and feelings of humans. The exception being Slaanesh, who was created in the 30,000s by the Eldar and all their raping and pillaging. So no, they haven't always existed.

The OP says this much.

But what he is saying is that time is irrelevant in the Warp as it flows backwards and forwards, there is no meaning to time. So the Dark Prince was born by the fall of the Eldar true, but he has always existed, as with the other Chaos Gods. Certain events might have bought them into being, but they have always been.

Confusing fo shizzle ...

Sanity is for the weak!

There is a huge debate over the nature of time. Many believe time to be another dimension, or just a fabrication of our minds to help us know the seasons and to look forward to our own mortality. Because we do not know the very nature of time, one cannot understand the nature of chaos.

That's what I've always thought: The Fall of the Eldar made Slaanesh have always been there.

DeadlySquirrel wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

DeadlySquirrel wrote:No, the Chaos Gods were created by (among other races) the thoughts and feelings of humans. The exception being Slaanesh, who was created in the 30,000s by the Eldar and all their raping and pillaging. So no, they haven't always existed.

The OP says this much.

But what he is saying is that time is irrelevant in the Warp as it flows backwards and forwards, there is no meaning to time. So the Dark Prince was born by the fall of the Eldar true, but he has always existed, as with the other Chaos Gods. Certain events might have bought them into being, but they have always been.

Confusing fo shizzle ...

Sanity is for the weak!

There is a huge debate over the nature of time. Many believe time to be another dimension, or just a fabrication of our minds to help us know the seasons and to look forward to our own mortality. Because we do not know the very nature of time, one cannot understand the nature of chaos.

Exactly

Let us assume then, that time is in fact the 4th dimension (as put forth by minds such as Steven Hawking).

We know that the laws of the universe do not apply to the warp, so it is possible to assume that there IS no time in the warp or it is at least different.

The Gods may feel they have always existed because time is nothing to them, but to those who reside in the material universe the gods will most certainly have done things that correspond to certain time periods (such as performing miracles in the year XXXXXX) and like Slaanesh will have had a birth (and eventual death). To us, then, the gods are not eternal. They haven't always existed.

This then begs the question, that if a being (warp or not) has both a birth and a death, are they not mortals?

DeadlySquirrel wrote:Let us assume then, that time is in fact the 4th dimension (as put forth by minds such as Steven Hawking).

We know that the laws of the universe do not apply to the warp, so it is possible to assume that there IS no time in the warp or it is at least different.

The Gods may feel they have always existed because time is nothing to them, but to those who reside in the material universe the gods will most certainly have done things that correspond to certain time periods (such as performing miracles in the year XXXXXX) and like Slaanesh will have had a birth (and eventual death). To us, then, the gods are not eternal. They haven't always existed.

This then begs the question, that if a being (warp or not) has both a birth and a death, are they not mortals?

All is Dust

Chaos, by it's definition, impossible to precisely define or understand. Any attempt to do so completely will lead to insanity, unless one is a god (Chaos Powers, Eldar and Ork Gods) or has god-like power (the Emperor, the Hive Mind).

It actually specifically says in the Chaos Marine codex (or maybe the Chaos Daemons one) that because of how time works, despite Slaanesh being born from the fall of the eldar he has always existed.

Slaanesh being eternal isn't relevant since he/she only started affecting stuff after his/her birth

Not true. Once Slaanesh exists he/she can affect anything in any time. The warp touches all times.

But if you really want to understand the warp, just look at new editions and codexes. If some old canon is replaced with something new, it has always been that way. If every single person stopped buying chaos marines and daemons from 6th edition on, they wouldn't be around in nearly the same way in 7th.

I think I agree with the OP. I mean, if Khorne is the god of anger and war, and there were sentient species that were angry and waged war long before humanity evolved, then Khorne would have existed then as well. My personal interpretation would be that the gods themselves (with the possible exception of Slaanesh) have existed for as long as sentient life has, but that humanity only gained enough of whatever it is they feed on to warrent their attention around 8000BC onwards, which created the gods as humanity understands them. So while the god of decay has always existed for all intents and purposes, humanity only named it Nurgle in 8000BC, so Nurgle the god is eternal, but Nurgle the face of the god will only exist as long as humanity does.

Violence and Bloodshed, not anger and war. Khorne is the god of Violence and Bloodshed. War is simply a grand outflowing of bloodshed, but the lone serial murderer killing in the name of the Blood God is as much a worshipper of Khorne as some battle-field berserker with chain-axes.

Anger is simply a tool for this Chaos Power, not one of his prime foci.

Psienesis wrote:Violence and Bloodshed, not anger and war. Khorne is the god of Violence and Bloodshed. War is simply a grand outflowing of bloodshed, but the lone serial murderer killing in the name of the Blood God is as much a worshipper of Khorne as some battle-field berserker with chain-axes.

Anger is simply a tool for this Chaos Power, not one of his prime foci.

"Khorne is the Blood God, an angry and murderous God of Chaos whose bellows of insatiable rage echo throughout time and space."- CSM codex 4th ed.

"When the tribes of Man first travelled abroadupon the lands and seas of ancient Terra, when they first met their distant kin, their first words were not of peace and brotherly love. They were of anger, hatred and rage... Khorne is the embodiment of this violent, irrational aspect of human nature."- CSM codex, 3.5 ed.

"Amidst bloodshed on such a scale Khorne finds his followers, for when war has stripped a man of all decency, compassion and humanity, then his soul is open wideto the howling, hate-driven oaths of the Blood God."-CSM codex 3.5 ed.

Khorne is the god of war and anger. Of course, I was hoping you'd actually respond to my argument rather than the domains I attributed to one of the gods.

I always thought it was they always existed, but certain events sort of caused them to manifest wholly and come into.... well they were already in existence, but more exist-y?

Like they've always been there but the gained sentience through more events in time

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:I always thought it was they always existed, but certain events sort of caused them to manifest wholly and come into.... well they were already in existence, but more exist-y?

Like they've always been there but the gained sentience through more events in time

Pretty much. They've always been there, but the elder three didn't actually achieve sentience until Earth's Dark Ages, and Slaanesh until the Fall of the Eldar.

Perhaps there are "blobs" of neutral, non-sentient chaos god energy. As the feelings of mortals change and grow, they change these blobs also. Eventually, they become full on gods dedicated to the emotions that gave them their power. Could explain the whole "eternal" thing.

Durza wrote:

Psienesis wrote:Violence and Bloodshed, not anger and war. Khorne is the god of Violence and Bloodshed. War is simply a grand outflowing of bloodshed, but the lone serial murderer killing in the name of the Blood God is as much a worshipper of Khorne as some battle-field berserker with chain-axes.

Anger is simply a tool for this Chaos Power, not one of his prime foci.

"Khorne is the Blood God, an angry and murderous God of Chaos whose bellows of insatiable rage echo throughout time and space."- CSM codex 4th ed.

"When the tribes of Man first travelled abroadupon the lands and seas of ancient Terra, when they first met their distant kin, their first words were not of peace and brotherly love. They were of anger, hatred and rage... Khorne is the embodiment of this violent, irrational aspect of human nature."- CSM codex, 3.5 ed.

"Amidst bloodshed on such a scale Khorne finds his followers, for when war has stripped a man of all decency, compassion and humanity, then his soul is open wideto the howling, hate-driven oaths of the Blood God."-CSM codex 3.5 ed.

Khorne is the god of war and anger. Of course, I was hoping you'd actually respond to my argument rather than the domains I attributed to one of the gods.

You're again using a descriptor of the god as an example of his portfolio. Of course he's an angry and murderous god, he's the god of violence and bloodshed. Your second and third quotes there further support my point that Khorne is the god of violence and bloodshed... hence "the Blood God". If we're to believe that fifty dudes meeting forty-five dudes, all dressed in animal skins and carrying wood and stone clubs were violent enough to be considered a "war", rather than a particularly rough pub-brawl, well... doesn't take much to call yourself a god of war, then, I suppose. War is simply, as said before, a large-scale outpouring of bloodshed and violence, so of course he revels in it... he'd revel just as much with a single guy taking an axe to a bunch of other guys in a village somewhere and heaping the bloody trophies up in a closet somewhere. Plenty of background for Ordo Hereticus/Ordo Malleus stuff to illustrate that Khornate followers aren't always soldiers, and aren't always found on a battlefield.

As to whether or not they have birthdays or have always existed? Depends on which book you read. Some of the older books claim that they've always existed and, in fact, exist in all times simultaneously, so they could have been both "born" at some point as well as having existed for all time. In the end, what does it matter? If we want to really go back, Khorne got his start sometime during the War in Heaven, when the Necrontyr and the C'Tan were waging wars of a scale the galaxy hasn't seen since, and Nurgle probably before then, as pre-transference Necrons were, supposedly, a pretty grim and fatalistic lot, what with their (now of questionable veracity) irradiated, disease-wracked homeworld(s). Tzeentch? Probably all up in that, as a trick to make the Deceiver green with envy, as he plays the C'Tan into changing the fates of the Necrontyr and, in fact, changing their very bodies, into the Necrons. Slaanesh? The Prince of Pleasure has probably been around since there was a functional nervous system to feel pain and pleasure, and things to covet and desire... and also came into being at the Fall of the Eldar.

The humano-centrism of the stated birth of the Chaos Gods makes little sense in the grimdarkness of the 40K setting. As a race, humanity is a relative newcomer and, though a powerhouse in M41, there's millions of years of history predating them, and all manner of xeno races of similar mental/psychic ability and potential to create the same sorts of energies that humanity is said to have created in order to create the Chaos Gods.

Psienesis wrote:Don't try to understand Chaos, that is the path of madness.

Im completely not mad, fool!

thenoobbomb wrote:

Psienesis wrote:Don't try to understand Chaos, that is the path of madness.

Im completely not mad, fool!

Some primarchs said that too, where are they now?

The Chaos Gods have existed forever and also have distinct points in time of their births.

This isn't a contradiction when you consider that they exist within the Warp where there is no such thing as time.

Psienesis wrote:Don't try to understand Chaos, that is the path of madness.

This isnt just double heresy, its TRIPLE heresy.

Chaos exists. And it does not. It has a beginning, and it does not. It has an end.

Chaos, at the end of the day, contains the essence of paradox. You're not going to get anywhere trying to classify it within the bounds of mortal sciences or philosophy. It's not going to work. Or an angry Commissar will blow your head off. Or something like that.

Juniperius wrote:

thenoobbomb wrote:

Psienesis wrote:Don't try to understand Chaos, that is the path of madness.

Im completely not mad, fool!

Some primarchs said that too, where are they now?

Ruling Daemon Worlds.