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I have been playing against empire for quite awhile with both my demons and my new beastman. My buddy just purchased their new dex and he almost always runs a steam tank.

To deal with the steam tank of the previous dex I would use mindrazor with my demons and with my beastmen I have had some good luck with using the stonecrusher mace.

I have not seen the new dex so what should I expect now from the steamtank? Will I still need the S9 and 10 or has the toughness be reduced or will magic attribute tests effect it? I guess what I am saying is continue as I have been or can I now say throw a unit of bastigors into it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
nevermind just read furrycats blog and got my answer.

The Stank is now only T6 so its much easier to wound(still has 1+ armor)

It uses the Engineer's stats for tests(so its I3) unlike the previous book where it automatically died(except vs Str tests)

Unlike the old dex, where the steam tank was very hard to kill, but largely neutered once you inflicted more than a couple of wounds, in the current book it's fairly practical to kill it, but at the same time the steam tank will keep on inflicting putting out the hurt.

He's a basic table showing how many hits you'll need at each strength level to take 10 wounds from a steam tank;
Str Hits needed
3 360
4 360
5 90
6 40
7 22.5
8 14.4
9 14.4
10 14.4

It looks like a lot, but there's no accounting for weapons inflicting multiple wounds there, and remember that the steam tank, if it runs at full steam, is quite likely to do some wounds to itself, especially if you've already knocked some wounds off of it.

Oh, and the steam tank now follows the rules for a chariot, and has been given an initiative value via the Engineer captain. So it doesn't autofail against tests any more, but with a fairly humble IN of 3 it's a good chance of failing.

sebster - as a returning to Empire player, should I be avoiding Steam Tanks and Characters on Griffons?

i.e., everything I really want to paint and field?

It seems like all the 'cool' stuff is supplanted by hordes of doofuses that I really don't look forward to painting...

Steam tanks are still decent.

The SuperChicken is still just T5, no saves, and dies to any sort of shooting at all. If you can make use of that to draw fire away from more important stuff, then it is useful. Otherwise it is pretty much a waste of points.

Which is a shame because it is a really pretty model.

That's my problem!

The new model is what really gets me wanting to paint up my long in a box somewhere in the basement Empire army!

It's funny, with the new book I've been trying an all cav army "just for kicks."

A dozen games later I've only lost once. After a few tweaks here's my 2500pt "fun list" that's been kicking ass.

Archlector on horse, crown of command, 2+ armour
Captain BSB on horse, 1 + armour
Pegasus Captain, 1+ armour, magic sword
Wizard Lord of Griffon, 4+ ward, dispel scroll

12 Inner Circle Knights, command, razor standard
10 Knights, command

4 Demigryphs, musician
4 Demigryphs, musician, flame banner
Cannon
Cannon

Steam Tank

Originally I had Karl Franz. I like him but ultimately cut him due to his cost. My wizard was originally on foot but with the points I saved I was like, you know, the Griffon really isn't that bad. Another fast hard hitting threat. Another warmachine/missile unit hunter. Lore of Beasts is a solid lore with 2 spells that can take out ethereal units. I do miss the lore of life as it would keep my various multi wound models topped up (and dwellers) but what can you do.

Part of the issue for my opponents is all the 1+ armour. Monsters tend to die to cannons + steam tank + amber spear. Steadfast units get ground down by Demigryphs. Enemy Death stars get held up by Steamtank. Knights mop up once key enemy units are engaged.

I'm not saying it's the most optimal list ever. But I've been playing all my tournament buddies with their optimized lists and I've been doing surprisingly well.

Alpharius wrote:That's my problem!

The new model is what really gets me wanting to paint up my long in a box somewhere in the basement Empire army!

If you like it get it, you don't have to minimax. I love my dragon model, now dragons are vulnerable to cannon just as griffons are vulnerable to bolt throwers and regular shooting (up to a point). The thing is you are the one with the cannon. With enough guns you can manufacture your own survivability by shooting the opponents guns. Cannon pop other artillery easy, when playing other armies with a monster its not so easy.

You gain what you lose in direct protection for the monster. I for one would be quite comfortable fielding an Empire griffin but worrit over my High Elf dragon. Thing is I dont like the current griffin model much, the old metal deathclaw and stormwing looked much better IMHO, might convert over the Island of Blood one like others have.

Alpharius wrote:sebster - as a returning to Empire player, should I be avoiding Steam Tanks and Characters on Griffons?

i.e., everything I really want to paint and field?

It seems like all the 'cool' stuff is supplanted by hordes of doofuses that I really don't look forward to painting...

Griffons aren't really much better than last edition, you still pay a lot of points for a model that goes down really fast, and all you can stick on top of it is a fairly modest Empire character. That said, they are cheaper than before, and while I've never had much luck with mine I know one other player who does really well with his.

I personally think the steam tank is excellent in this edition. Sure it's a bit easier to kill, especially now that troops with great weapons can wound on a 5, or even a 4+, but the big thing is that unlike last edition it can keep throwing out damage once it's taken some wounds. It isn't that strong an option as an anvil/points denial unit, but the counter is that the thing has the potential to kill a lot of enemy guys. And with Greatsword being stupidly expensive, the Empire doesn't really have that many options for large numbers of Str 6 attacks.

I mean, ultimately you're probably going to have to paint at least one really big block of troops, and you will hate the world and everything in it before you're done If anything, the new book has only made the move from 30 strong to 50 strong infantry units more necessary.

sebster wrote:

Alpharius wrote:sebster - as a returning to Empire player, should I be avoiding Steam Tanks and Characters on Griffons?

i.e., everything I really want to paint and field?

It seems like all the 'cool' stuff is supplanted by hordes of doofuses that I really don't look forward to painting...

Griffons aren't really much better than last edition, you still pay a lot of points for a model that goes down really fast, and all you can stick on top of it is a fairly modest Empire character. That said, they are cheaper than before, and while I've never had much luck with mine I know one other player who does really well with his.

I personally think the steam tank is excellent in this edition. Sure it's a bit easier to kill, especially now that troops with great weapons can wound on a 5, or even a 4+, but the big thing is that unlike last edition it can keep throwing out damage once it's taken some wounds. It isn't that strong an option as an anvil/points denial unit, but the counter is that the thing has the potential to kill a lot of enemy guys. And with Greatsword being stupidly expensive, the Empire doesn't really have that many options for large numbers of Str 6 attacks.

I mean, ultimately you're probably going to have to paint at least one really big block of troops, and you will hate the world and everything in it before you're done If anything, the new book has only made the move from 30 strong to 50 strong infantry units more necessary.

Ugh - no kidding on that last bit! That and the shift to ridiculous magic phases really don't help endear the new edition to me...

So...50 Halberdiers it is then, I suppose!

But when you are finished you will have a block of 50 painted dudes that looks so dang cool

It almost makes you want to paint another block of 50 dudes.

@Alpharius: One option that really intrigues me on the griffon is the Bloodroar upgrade that makes units roll an extra D6 on their terror checks. It may not be game breaking, but it feels like you could do some pretty decent things clearing out chaff and owning flanks with that ability.

Also- some degree of protection for your big stuff can be gained through target saturation. When playing against empire, I'm already feeling like I have to counter battery the artillery, which makes it harder to focus fire on the monsters.

The griffon may not be #1 a-plus optimized, but I think it can be used well. Plus, with a charmed shield or some cannon protection for the rider, it can be hard to get points for monster riders who then dive into units for protection.

In short, I say go for it.

Alpharius wrote:Ugh - no kidding on that last bit! That and the shift to ridiculous magic phases really don't help endear the new edition to me...

So...50 Halberdiers it is then, I suppose!

See, I'm the opposite. With big blocks on infantry on the field I'm loving it, because the battlefield finally looks like a proper battlefield.

But totally I understand hating to paint that many guys.

I would say the magic phase is less rediclous now then it used to be.

Sure, there are now some pretty nasty spells but you have to admit the days of 20+PD phases were just stupid broken. Some armies could just toss gobs and gobs of spells out there, others would barely manage two or three.

I can manage this system, and I play ogres. We hate I test or die spells as even our characters have piss poor inititive.

Grey Templar wrote:I would say the magic phase is less rediclous now then it used to be.

Sure, there are now some pretty nasty spells but you have to admit the days of 20+PD phases were just stupid broken. Some armies could just toss gobs and gobs of spells out there, others would barely manage two or three.

I can manage this system, and I play ogres. We hate I test or die spells as even our characters have piss poor inititive.

There is certainly less scope for abuse in the current system, because you can't just keep buying spellcasters to ensure dominance, but within the current magic system there's tremendous variety in possible results. You might get Dweller's Below off on his horde unit and wipe 25 guys from the board, but you also might get sucked into the warp throwing two dice at a fireball spell.

For a lot of folk that kind of randomness is too much, and they feel it comes to dominate over player skill too much. Personally, I'm not that bothered about the randomness, in part because it's overstated, and in part because if the dice swing the odd game one way or the other, well that just makes it more exciting to watch unfold - I'm just a friendly gamer and don't really get that bothered about if the result goes against me.

Red_Zeke wrote:@Alpharius: One option that really intrigues me on the griffon is the Bloodroar upgrade that makes units roll an extra D6 on their terror checks. It may not be game breaking, but it feels like you could do some pretty decent things clearing out chaff and owning flanks with that ability.

Also- some degree of protection for your big stuff can be gained through target saturation. When playing against empire, I'm already feeling like I have to counter battery the artillery, which makes it harder to focus fire on the monsters.

The griffon may not be #1 a-plus optimized, but I think it can be used well. Plus, with a charmed shield or some cannon protection for the rider, it can be hard to get points for monster riders who then dive into units for protection.

In short, I say go for it.

You've convinced me - 2 Griffons it is!

All joking aside, I admit, I love the new model - both versions!

Even the Two-Headed one!

sebster wrote:

For a lot of folk that kind of randomness is too much, and they feel it comes to dominate over player skill too much. Personally, I'm not that bothered about the randomness, in part because it's overstated, and in part because if the dice swing the odd game one way or the other, well that just makes it more exciting to watch unfold - I'm just a friendly gamer and don't really get that bothered about if the result goes against me.

You and me both, brother!

sebster wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:I would say the magic phase is less rediclous now then it used to be.

Sure, there are now some pretty nasty spells but you have to admit the days of 20+PD phases were just stupid broken. Some armies could just toss gobs and gobs of spells out there, others would barely manage two or three.

I can manage this system, and I play ogres. We hate I test or die spells as even our characters have piss poor inititive.

There is certainly less scope for abuse in the current system, because you can't just keep buying spellcasters to ensure dominance, but within the current magic system there's tremendous variety in possible results. You might get Dweller's Below off on his horde unit and wipe 25 guys from the board, but you also might get sucked into the warp throwing two dice at a fireball spell.

For a lot of folk that kind of randomness is too much, and they feel it comes to dominate over player skill too much. Personally, I'm not that bothered about the randomness, in part because it's overstated, and in part because if the dice swing the odd game one way or the other, well that just makes it more exciting to watch unfold - I'm just a friendly gamer and don't really get that bothered about if the result goes against me.

I agree with you in a way. I know a lot of people who feel the randomness detracts from their ability to "skillfully play", but in my experience if you take out too much randomness it becomes 40k, where you can usually tell the winner in the mechanics of their lists. Player skill is an overstated item in a d6 wargame anyways.

Usually I feel it comes down to a few token maneuvers like using redirects, knowing that the average total on two dice is 7 when casting spells, knowing the odds of an upcoming combat ( ie 20 attacks needing 4's to hit and 4's to wound should result in X wounds. He should do y back.) and not getting your units in over their head unless you can make up combat rezz in other ways. The rest is usually waiting for an opponent to mess up.

I think losing a wizard to a 2dice fireball is a fine variable in the game. It's a way to shift the power balance from time to time, same with random charges. It's not fun if I know my warrior block can dominate his empire swordsman the second I get within 7 inches. If however, my failed charge means I might get hit in the flank by greatswords AND charged by the swordsmen, well, now it's interesting!

I would actually say it enhances player skill, and it certaintly shows what skill you do have.

My second game of the BAO this year was a perfect example. First turn I lose my Slaughter Master to a 3 diced Bonecruncher. That game became a real challange and perhaps the best game I've had ever. The fact I won just made it even more awsome

Grey Templar wrote:I would actually say it enhances player skill, and it certaintly shows what skill you do have.

My second game of the BAO this year was a perfect example. First turn I lose my Slaughter Master to a 3 diced Bonecruncher. That game became a real challange and perhaps the best game I've had ever. The fact I won just made it even more awsome

Fair point. Even if the event is so catastrophic that you never recover and it costs you the game, well at least it got you thinking, got you to change your battleplan on the fly. That's worth more than recording a win, in my opion.

sebster wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:I would actually say it enhances player skill, and it certaintly shows what skill you do have.

My second game of the BAO this year was a perfect example. First turn I lose my Slaughter Master to a 3 diced Bonecruncher. That game became a real challange and perhaps the best game I've had ever. The fact I won just made it even more awsome

Fair point. Even if the event is so catastrophic that you never recover and it costs you the game, well at least it got you thinking, got you to change your battleplan on the fly. That's worth more than recording a win, in my opion.

This. Learning to change your plans is a huge step to being a better player.