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I've looked on this site for how to play this out but haven't found anything but if it's been brought up before my apologies.

So Brotherhood Champion has 3 stances Storm Sword, Blade Shield and Rapier Strike
Brotherhood Banner states it gives all models an extra attack in the unit.
Blade shield and Storm Sword are pretty straightforward in that it will not give an extra attack/save.

However, I think the argument can be made that Brotherhood banner can give Rapier strike an extra attack.
Rule is that the Brotherhood Champion makes d3 attacks (+1 if charging) resolved at init 10. To me it looks as if the D3 attacks is just defining base attack and the (+1 if charging) is allowing modifiers to be applied, ergo charging still allows the plus one attack. I do not see any reason for the Brotherhood Banner to not apply to adding attacks as well. Any rulings on this?

There's nothing in the FAQ, so we're left with coming up with the most logical route using the rules.

For Rapier Strike, you will absolutely get the bonus attack from the banner. You have a number of attacks, and add +1, no problem there.

For Blade shield, you get a bonus attack, but since blade shield does not allow you to attack you do not get to make use of it. Best to think of it as you get nothing from the banner.

As for Sword Storm, this is the interesting one. You get to make one attack on each model in base to base with the Champion. So you have a set number of attacks. The caveat to that is you get no bonus attacks, but specifically only charge bonuses are lost. So you get to make your attacks, +1 additional attack that is allocated on the unit as a normal attack would be.

I would have to disagree on what you said about Storm Sword. In the RAW it states you make a SINGLE attack ON every model in base to base contact.

Meaning, that each model receives a single attack. I do not think it grants you to make X amount of attacks Vs the unit you are assaulting basing X as the number of units in base to base contact. Thus you would lose the extra attack from the banner.

newdigitaltau wrote:I would have to disagree on what you said about Storm Sword. In the RAW it states you make a SINGLE attack ON every model in base to base contact.

Meaning, that each model receives a single attack. I do not think it grants you to make X amount of attacks Vs the unit you are assaulting basing X as the number of units in base to base contact. Thus you would lose the extra attack from the banner.

However, we have no hard proof either way so we're forced to do the best we can. If you look at Sword Storm, it only says you don't get bonus attacks from charging. If it wasn't supposed to get attacks from elsewhere, it would say the model gains no bonus attacks of any sort. That means we have to follow the base rules laid out in Sword Storm, that the model makes an attack on each model in base. We also have to satisfy the Brotherhood banner rule which gives +1 attack. We cannot use that bonus attack in the same manner as Sword Storm because we don't have permission to do so (Meaning no taking the bonus attack and slapping it on the poor sarge that's in base so he gets attacked twice). So what we must do with that bonus attack, is go back to the normal way attacks are worked out, just like every other attack on a unit. Keep in mind the assault rules tell us the models must fight with their full number of attacks, meaning we cannot simply lose the attack.

Lone Dragoon wrote:

newdigitaltau wrote:I would have to disagree on what you said about Storm Sword. In the RAW it states you make a SINGLE attack ON every model in base to base contact.

Meaning, that each model receives a single attack. I do not think it grants you to make X amount of attacks Vs the unit you are assaulting basing X as the number of units in base to base contact. Thus you would lose the extra attack from the banner.

However, we have no hard proof either way so we're forced to do the best we can. If you look at Sword Storm, it only says you don't get bonus attacks from charging. If it wasn't supposed to get attacks from elsewhere, it would say the model gains no bonus attacks of any sort. That means we have to follow the base rules laid out in Sword Storm, that the model makes an attack on each model in base. We also have to satisfy the Brotherhood banner rule which gives +1 attack. We cannot use that bonus attack in the same manner as Sword Storm because we don't have permission to do so (Meaning no taking the bonus attack and slapping it on the poor sarge that's in base so he gets attacked twice). So what we must do with that bonus attack, is go back to the normal way attacks are worked out, just like every other attack on a unit. Keep in mind the assault rules tell us the models must fight with their full number of attacks, meaning we cannot simply lose the attack.

I agree with this.

If you make an attack each each enemy in base contact and an attack against the unit, have you followed the rules for Sword Storm? No, because you made an extra attack that was not against a model in base contact that had not already recieved a single attack.

You cannot attack with all your attacks if a special rule you have does not let you, and in this case making the extra attack against the unit is not following the rules for Sword Storm.

Avatar 720 wrote:If you make an attack each each enemy in base contact and an attack against the unit, have you followed the rules for Sword Storm? No, because you made an extra attack that was not against a model in base contact that had not already recieved a single attack.

Actually, you have. Read Sword storm again, it doesn't specify that you can not make additional attacks. The extra attack is not directed against model in base contact with him, it is directed against unit.

Avatar 720 wrote:
You cannot attack with all your attacks if a special rule you have does not let you, and in this case making the extra attack against the unit is not following the rules for Sword Storm.

Nowhere in Sword Storms description is there a "Model cannot make normal attacks". Only restriction is that Champion does not receive bonus attacks for charging. Which is completely different from "Model cannot receive bonus attacks".

So normal rules for attacks apply.

The important thing is that it does not specify that you can make additional attacks. If you have made an additional attack then you have not used Sword Storm.

If you tell me to eat 4 of your fries and I eat 5, have I followed your instructions? No, I have not, since you only told me to eat 4. At no point did you tell me that I could eat more.

Avatar 720 wrote:The important thing is that it does not specify that you can make additional attacks. If you have made an additional attack then you have not used Sword Storm.

If you tell me to eat 4 of your fries and I eat 5, have I followed your instructions? No, I have not, since you only told me to eat 4. At no point did you tell me that I could eat more.

Actually that's not the way logic works.

The answer to the question "Has he eaten 4 fries?" is considered 'yes' if the person eats 4 or more fries. You are artificially inserting the word 'only' into the sentence because that's how the instruction would be understood in normal, everyday speech.

If you are with 5 friends and a rule stated "You eat a single fry for every other person at the table" and an additional rule stated "you may eat an extra fry if someone is wearing a hat" then if you ate 6 fries, you would not have broken either rule (provided someone was wearing a hat, of course). If, however, the first rule actually said "You may only ever eat a single fry for every other person at the table" then you would have broken the rules by eating 6.

The fact that Sword Storm specifically prohibits the bonus attack from charging, but not extra attacks from other sources, is also very telling (although GW is famous for sometimes being ambiguous in their intent).

I would consider it RAW that you gain an additional attack from a banner for both Rapier Strike and Sword Storm, but not Blade Shield.

DoW

The problem I see is a question of where the additional attacks go. Your special rule allows you a single attack per model in base contact--NOT two. There are no normal rules for directing attacks before they are hit, or directing attacks at models that are not in base contact with you. So if you are in base with 4 models in a 5 model unit, and you have +1 attack from the banner, the first rule granting you 1 attack per model in base leaves your +1 banner attack with no way be resolved.

This issue is not related only to bonus attacks by the way. Psy grenades on a result of 2 allow the model only 1 attack. What happens if this result was applied to a champion in base with 4 models? If you use your storm special rule to attack each model in base, you are not following the normal rules for attacks, so a restriction/bonus to normal attacks (like +1 attack from the banner, -1 attack from defend dire avengers, or 1 attack only from psynades) doesnt change your sword stance special rule.

Well, assuming in both stances you gain an extra attack, this is how I believe.it should go. Rapier strike is easy,.just D3+1(or +2 on the charge). Sword Storm should be 1 vs every b2b model and then a regular attack.

Just my HYWPI.

Deadshot wrote:Well, assuming in both stances you gain an extra attack, this is how I believe.it should go. Rapier strike is easy,.just D3+1(or +2 on the charge). Sword Storm should be 1 vs every b2b model and then a regular attack.

Just my HYWPI.

I concur.

I also believe this is the RAW as you are not forbidden from gaining an extra attack from a source other than the bonus for charging.

DoW

While you can get bonus (or penalty) attacks when using sword storm, you still are using a special rule that interferes with how you attack and does not use your attack stat.

DevianID wrote:While you can get bonus (or penalty) attacks when using sword storm, you still are using a special rule that interferes with how you attack and does not use your attack stat.

Sword storm does not interfere with how you attack, it tells you that when you use Sword storm you attack that way. What it doesn't do is say, "You are only allowed one attack on each model in base to base, and may make no further attacks." It says, "The brotherhood champion makes a single attack on every model in base contact with him (note that he does not receive bonus attacks from charging)."

There is nothing in there that says sword storm's rules are the only way he can attack with that particular stance. Nothing prevents him from gaining bonus attacks from something other than charging, and those attacks have to go somewhere. So we use the normal assault rules to determine where the attacks go.

So he would still get a bonus attack for having a power weapon and a pistol?

For Rapier strike yes, SS is debatable.as we can see. Besides, he doesn't have a pistol so the point is moot.

Sword storm does not interfere with how you attack, it tells you that when you use Sword storm you attack that way

I dont know. The model does not have an attack stat to begin with, he instead picks a stance. While he can get bonus or penalty attacks, his attack stat is still '*'. '* + 1' does not = 1, just like *-1 from dire avengers does not reduce his attacks.

Lone Dragoon wrote:There's nothing in the FAQ, so we're left with coming up with the most logical route using the rules.

For Rapier Strike, you will absolutely get the bonus attack from the banner. You have a number of attacks, and add +1, no problem there.

For Blade shield, you get a bonus attack, but since blade shield does not allow you to attack you do not get to make use of it. Best to think of it as you get nothing from the banner.

As for Sword Storm, this is the interesting one. You get to make one attack on each model in base to base with the Champion. So you have a set number of attacks. The caveat to that is you get no bonus attacks, but specifically only charge bonuses are lost. So you get to make your attacks, +1 additional attack that is allocated on the unit as a normal attack would be.

Tons of good points here (read the whole thread), but I see nothing in the Codex that contradicts Lone Dragoon's reading. RAW and permissive rule set philosophy all seem to agree with the above.

Lobukia, how would you resolve -1 attack then?

DevianID wrote:Lobukia, how would you resolve -1 attack then?

Pick a model in BtB that he doesn't make an attack against. IMO that would only be fair if you're allwing the Banner to add an attack. So in combination: one attack against each model in BtB, (normal), then select one model that's "immune" (-1 attack), then swing against the unit normally (+1 attack).