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I am looking to get into Infinity. After cursorily reading the two rulebooks and the boards about the game, I am still wondering whether or not the starters are worth buying.

On the plus side, they usually give you six figures for less than the price of five figures. However, like many bundles, they seem to contain figures that you may not want from either the player or the painter perspective. For example, consider the Nomad sectorial starter. It contains a Sin Eater Mk12, which is a stunning model. The problem is that the general consensus is that you really never want to take a Sin Eater with a Mk 12, as a HMG or sniper rifle are better choices. Other starters have similar problems. The regular Nomad starter has the Securitate model.

The Human Sphere rules help make line troops more useful with the addition of link teams, but it still does not cure odd weapon loadouts or high points costs.

It this my own misimpression based on inexperience? What is your take on the starters that are familiar to you?

First of all, no weapons load out is entirely "bad." Sure, the Asura with spitfire (I'm going to take an ALEPH perspective because that's the faction I play - as you can see below, it's a pretty good cross-section for Infinity) is a lot more useful than the Asura with multi rifle. Most of the time when I put an Asura in my list, I'm going to use the spitfire Asura. However, sometimes I'm gonna field a hacker Asura, or a lieutenant Asura (combi and multi rifles, respectively). Sometimes I want an Asura because she's hard to kill and can see through camo and I don't care what she's wielding, or I can't afford the harder version.

Secondly, when you mention link teams or coordinate orderes, it's important to consider that variety of weapons is actually a bigger advantage in this game. Sure, the HMG is better for Sin Eaters in most cases. However, if you're fielding a ton of Sin Eaters in a linked team, you probably want some other kinds of weapons up in there. Combi rifles have better range, for example, which can be an asset. If your force is full of HMGs, some opponents could easily play a long game and hang back, sniping at you from a distance.

And sometimes - like when you're first starting out - you just don't care. The fact is that Infinity does not have the same degree of WYSIWYG as, say, 40k or Warhahordes. Nine times out of ten all you need to do is point at your Asura (or Sin Eater) and say "spitfire" (or HMG) and your opponent will nod sagely and say "cool."

So, my advice is to go for the starter pack. It provides you with a good variety of models to begin with and to learn with, and you can easily grow your connection from there. If you end up not using some of what you've got as much in the long run... well, whatever. You've got some beautiful painted models you can still use once in a while.

The only circumstances under which I'd recommend cherry-picking rather than buying the starte are...
1) You have a ton of money and can do without the discount included in the starter pack.
2) You have played enough games with borrowed/proxied models that you know exactly what you want to play.
3) What you want to play is a sectorial or other limited set within your faction's range, so many of the models in the starter will be useless to you.

Otherwise, I recommend the starter.

The good thing about Starter Packs is that they provide a bunch of miniatures, and from that point you can start expanding your army depending on your style or your personal preferences.

I bough the Military Orders Starter Pack because I loved the minis (one of the main reasons IMHO to start a faction, beside the fluff) and starting with that basic miniatures I started buying some others that I knew I needed.

I think that's the purpose of sectorial Starter Packs. They provide a solid base from which you can develope your style.

Buy!...its worth it.

What ElectricPaladin said is spot on.

I always run my Sin-Eater with a mk12, as I don't want him eating into my SWC. Never felt he needed a heavier weapons.

I've not used Sin-Eaters yet, but the Mk12 should be fine for closer defence and leaves you with SWC to put big guns on your offensive models.

Your looking at it the wrong way.

The Sin-Eater MK12, don't work like the HMG or Sniper Sin-Eater. The HMG/Sniper is a long range deterrent, used to sit back and force you enemy to go were you want them. The MK12 is a defence unit used to guard 1 or 2 of you important units. It is your inexperience with the game that is coloring your view.

As for the rest like the Mods, lets put it this way, your not going to want to bring the same list. You will need to keep it changing, or the others will find a hole in your line up and stomp you. Hell, you are going to want to change your Lt, even when you don't change the models, just to keep the other guy from hunting you Lt.

ElectricPaladin wrote:First of all, no weapons load out is entirely "bad." Sure, the Asura with spitfire (I'm going to take an ALEPH perspective because that's the faction I play - as you can see below, it's a pretty good cross-section for Infinity) is a lot more useful than the Asura with multi rifle. Most of the time when I put an Asura in my list, I'm going to use the spitfire Asura. However, sometimes I'm gonna field a hacker Asura, or a lieutenant Asura (combi and multi rifles, respectively). Sometimes I want an Asura because she's hard to kill and can see through camo and I don't care what she's wielding, or I can't afford the harder version.

You must admit that certain miniatures are better paired with particular types of weapons than other miniatures. To use an analogy from 40k, a powerfist would be a better purchase on an assault marine than on a devastator. An Hassassin Lasiq is probably better off with a sniper rifle, than a plain old rifle.

Again, I do not have any play experience, but it seems that some models in starters are just not good choices. For example, I think that there are better options for Haqislam than Ghulam infantry. You can get Naffatun, who have the same statline, for three points less.

The Ariadna 3rd Highlander Grey Rifles with HMG seems like an odd weapon choice.

Sin Eaters are designed for ARO. If an opponent shoots at them from far away, then they cannot react if they have a short range gun like the Mk12.

Whith the Ghulam vs. Naffatun... the Ghulam are awesome because they are cheap Doctors with good Willpower. The Naffatun are excellent units, but they can't link up, and you only get the flamethrowers... no other special things.

I should point out that the Bakunin starter would become an illegal choice were it to include an HMG or Sniper Rifle - as it's about ~120 points, with the Zero's E-mauler and the SWC cost for upgrading the Moira or a Moderator to Lt, the SWC for an MSR or HMG would make it more than the allowed 2 SWC.

You could in theory swap in the Zero without the E-mauler and then include an MSR, but that would still prevent the Moira being a valid Lt (and that Zero is already in the regular starter!). I also point out that it's a starter, and thus not the best place to put OMGDEATH models that will put anyone who plays it off the game.

It is, therefore, an entirely reasonable choice to include in the box. And not half as tame as you seem to think it is - it's still a heckuva nasty weapon, and it frees up SWC to be used elsewhere.

In any case, my Infinity buying principle is that any doubts you may have had about buying Infinity models tend to go out of the window when the pretty models actually arrive on your doorstep.

spaceelf wrote:

Sin Eaters are designed for ARO. If an opponent shoots at them from far away, then they cannot react if they have a short range gun like the Mk12.

That is way unit placement, matter in this game. Use your guys right, the MK12 is not meant for long range. You are miss judging there usefulness becouse use can't see how they interact on the table. This isn't a game of I GOT THE BIGGEST GUN, but a game of TACTICAL MOVEMENT and PLACEMENT. With the right movement and placement your weapons become the star. So I can't shot as far as your guy, don't matter becouse your going to have to move into my +3 range band to attack my guy while you get +0 or -3 and take multi ARO, guess what I win that fire fight.

spaceelf wrote:
You must admit that certain miniatures are better paired with particular types of weapons than other miniatures. To use an analogy from 40k, a powerfist would be a better purchase on an assault marine than on a devastator. An Hassassin Lasiq is probably better off with a sniper rifle, than a plain old rifle.

Yes it will be more effective outside close firefights (the Rifle version is better within 16" and much better between 8" and 12") but there's a big difference beyond the points cost. The rifle version costs no SWC and the sniper version costs 1.5 SWC - as you only get 1 SWC per 50 points in the force that puts a big restraint on the number of other big guns or odd Lieutenant choices you can take.

spaceelf wrote:
Again, I do not have any play experience, but it seems that some models in starters are just not good choices. For example, I think that there are better options for Haqislam than Ghulam infantry. You can get Naffatun, who have the same statline, for three points less.

One point less. The light flamethrower Naffatun is the one you take when you can't find the extra two points for the heavy version.

Yes, the basic Ghulam is less effective than the basic Naffatun. However the Naffatun only comes in one and a bit loadouts with no HMG, Panzerfaust, Missile Launcher, Hacker, Doctor or LGL versions, and costs a swinging 2 SWC to make the Lieutenant.

spaceelf wrote:
The Ariadna 3rd Highlander Grey Rifles with HMG seems like an odd weapon choice.

An HMG on a Dogged unit that can keep fighting after falling unconscious, has armour and has one of the highest BS levels in the faction? Hell yes it's a good choice! Even better in a Link Team.

spaceelf wrote:
Sin Eaters are designed for ARO. If an opponent shoots at them from far away, then they cannot react if they have a short range gun like the Mk12.

As Noir has pointed out, placement and terrain is incredibly important in Infinity. If you can't find a place where the Mk 12 (which has much better effective range than anything else rifle-sized by the way) can't protect your back line without being shot from range, the chances are your table is too open.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
P.S. I like to think of the Infinity starter packs as being samplers as much as starters, they're not balanced against each other and are mostly a bit short on big guns.

Noir wrote:

spaceelf wrote:

Sin Eaters are designed for ARO. If an opponent shoots at them from far away, then they cannot react if they have a short range gun like the Mk12.

That is way unit placement, matter in this game. Use your guys right, the MK12 is not meant for long range. You are miss judging there usefulness becouse use can't see how they interact on the table. This isn't a game of I GOT THE BIGGEST GUN, but a game of TACTICAL MOVEMENT and PLACEMENT. With the right movement and placement your weapons become the star. So I can't shot as far as your guy, don't matter becouse your going to have to move into my +3 range band to attack my guy while you get +0 or -3 and take multi ARO, guess what I win that fire fight.

I see your point. However, if it has a longer range gun, then the miniature can be used more flexibly, giving me more game play options. If your opponent knows how you have to play your Sin Eater then he may be able to counter your moves.


spaceelf wrote:
The Ariadna 3rd Highlander Grey Rifles with HMG seems like an odd weapon choice.

IJW wrote:
An HMG on a Dogged unit that can keep fighting after falling unconscious, has armour and has one of the highest BS levels in the faction? Hell yes it's a good choice! Even better in a Link Team.

He has a huge drawback though in the form of frenzy. He may be powerful, but he may well be forced to move to his doom. I would not want to lose such an important gun. (You will only get a few big guns because of SWC)

1. Spend an Order to stop him rabidly running toward the enemy.
2. Don't cancel the Impetuous Order and have an extra order where he outshoots everyone with Burst 4, BS13 and excellent range bands.
3. Make sure at the end of the previous turn that the 4" Impetuous move won't take him out into the open.
4. In a Caledonian Sectorial stick him in a Link Team where he can't become Impetuous.

Etc.

spaceelf wrote:

I see your point. However, if it has a longer range gun, then the miniature can be used more flexibly, giving me more game play options. If your opponent knows how you have to play your Sin Eater then he may be able to counter your moves.

Dude, since this is about what you will buy and what you will play....based on what you are saying then it looks like you are already decided...go for the models you like...make a list and post it here saying you are making your own starter list to buy. See what people say about your self made starter. In a way it is like you are getting the same benefits of the starter set...but maybe spending a little more to omit a model(s) you don't like and replacing them with models you are more comfortable with.

Just gives you more options I guess.

Pointblank wrote:

spaceelf wrote:

I see your point. However, if it has a longer range gun, then the miniature can be used more flexibly, giving me more game play options. If your opponent knows how you have to play your Sin Eater then he may be able to counter your moves.

Dude, since this is about what you will buy and what you will play....based on what you are saying then it looks like you are already decided...go for the models you like...make a list and post it here saying you are making your own starter list to buy. See what people say about your self made starter. In a way it is like you are getting the same benefits of the starter set...but maybe spending a little more to omit a model(s) you don't like and replacing them with models you are more comfortable with.

Just gives you more options I guess.

I was hoping for model by model reviews of the starters. It would be helpful to users other than myself. Discussion of specific models would also be useful. For example, is anyone taking Ghulam with rifles and why?

I am considering buying models from a nomad sectorial list I saw on the infinity forum. It is based around Intruders, which seem like a strong unit based on their MSV and Camo. It includes an
Intruder lt
Intruder
Two Intruders with sniper rifles
Intruder with HMG
Tomcat doc with zond
Tomcat
Senor Massacre

spaceelf wrote:

Pointblank wrote:

spaceelf wrote:

I see your point. However, if it has a longer range gun, then the miniature can be used more flexibly, giving me more game play options. If your opponent knows how you have to play your Sin Eater then he may be able to counter your moves.

Dude, since this is about what you will buy and what you will play....based on what you are saying then it looks like you are already decided...go for the models you like...make a list and post it here saying you are making your own starter list to buy. See what people say about your self made starter. In a way it is like you are getting the same benefits of the starter set...but maybe spending a little more to omit a model(s) you don't like and replacing them with models you are more comfortable with.

Just gives you more options I guess.

I was hoping for model by model reviews of the starters. It would be helpful to users other than myself. Discussion of specific models would also be useful. For example, is anyone taking Ghulam with rifles and why?

I am considering buying models from a nomad sectorial list I saw on the infinity forum. It is based around Intruders, which seem like a strong unit based on their MSV and Camo. It includes an
Intruder lt
Intruder
Two Intruders with sniper rifles
Intruder with HMG
Tomcat doc with zond
Tomcat
Senor Massacre

Hmmm... interesting.

4.5 SWC and exactly 300 points.

Intruders can't form a link team, which isn't a big deal, I guess.

Seems like someone was trying really hard to use up all 300 points...

Seems like quite a small force too.

As an Aleph player, my current Asura/spitfire list gets almost as many orders at half the points... it might be worth looking at swapping out something expensive for a few cheap order generators so you can do more with those expensive Intruders

Armor might be a problem as well. Unless those are Multi Snipers.

A TAG could make for a particularly tough opponent if it gets through your camo.

Senor Massacre is fun to have on the table though. Special Rules allow him to break the fourth wall on any building if he's painted up like Deadpool.

spaceelf wrote:
I was hoping for model by model reviews of the starters. It would be helpful to users other than myself. Discussion of specific models would also be useful. For example, is anyone taking Ghulam with rifles and why?

Well, on the Haqq side, I can look at the models in the Haqq starter box since you bring up the Ghulams:

*Ghulam Rifles: Yes, Naffatn are more lethal, but Ghulams are a better source of cheap specialists (hacker & doctor), and most importantly, budget Lieutenant options. If you're going to take a fancy Lt. figure, then the Naffatns are better order monkeys. But on a budget, the basic Ghulam Lt. is already a good deal with WIP 14 and becomes more effective if you've got one or two other Ghulams to play a shell game with. Or take a fancy Lt with WIP 14 and try to make it look like the Ghulam is the Lt. Especially on the Hassassin Sectorial, where they are the cheapest Lt/order monkey.

*Naffatn w/ Light Flamer: Not as good as the Heavy Flamer, really, but if that extra 2 points will help you buy heavy weapons elsewhere, also a tolerable option. Also, I've never had a problem if my opponent wanted to proxy this as a Heavy Flamer. Shouldn't be too tough a conversion either if you really want WYSIWYG

*Janissary w/AP Rifle: Good Heavy Infantry. Religious means this guy will keep on going even in Retreat or Loss of Lieutenant, and the AP Rifle is a decent equivalence to a MULTI rifle for other factions. Also great Lt if you're willing to spend SWC, or a tough frontline doctor.

*Hunazkut w/ Sniper Rifle: Irregular makes him a bit of a pain, but a decent camouflage sniper platform, and the deployable repeaters are nice if you've got a hacker. Mines can also be a pain in the arse for the other guy. Also a good proxy for the still unreleased Ghulam sniper loadout.

Personal verdict: Good deal. The 3 Ghulam rifles can see a lot of use, as will the Janissary. The Naffatn and Hunzakut are currently exclusive(?) to the starter, and range from okay (Naffatn light flamer), to good (Hunzakut sniper)

Chemical Cutthroat wrote:

Senor Massacre is fun to have on the table though. Special Rules allow him to break the fourth wall on any building if he's painted up like Deadpool.

As a Merc, I often forget about him.

And then someone reminds me how Mercs can be 'legally' used in certain Sectorials...

spaceelf wrote:I was hoping for model by model reviews of the starters. It would be helpful to users other than myself. Discussion of specific models would also be useful. For example, is anyone taking Ghulam with rifles and why?

Yes.
A) Because it's fluffy.
B) Because they're easily used as Halqa, and mechanised deployment is useful.
C) Because they're not half as useless as people seem to have them marked down as. The flamethrower is deliciously lethal, but it's also very short ranged. The shotgun, on the other hand, is actually useful at more than 8 or 10". Having most of a force armed with decent ranged AoE weapons can give opponents a real headache trying to make sure they're not opening themselves up to having multiple troops taken out in one shot.
D) Because they're not gouging you on the SWC to make them an Lt. (And even then, this would only save you a single point, as Naffatun Lts have to have the Heavy FT).

Naffatun are just naturally bad Lts - aside from the nasty 2 SWC, the contrast between the somewhat gung-ho way Naffatun should be used and the cautious way Lts. should be used often means you end up without an Lt fairly quickly - either because they get shot dead, or their odd behaviour sticks out like a sore thumb and puts them on your opponent's hit list. So, if you want to hide an Lt amongst LI, a mess of Ghulam are far better.

I like Naffatun, but I wouldn't consider them my first choice.

Im no nomad player... but based on looks... intruders look cool and those snipers would be very effective.

However you maybe short on orders... and also see what adjustments could be made with the force you posted in case you have to build a squad with lower points...like 250 or 200....even down to 100.

Ghulam are great. Especially as doctors and order generators. I go against haqq all the time and have yet to win with my shasvastii.

That Nomad list with some few models would be overrun by the same Haqq army. If there's Djabazan with their MSV you might as well forget about that camo.