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I can't find where in any book it says that you have to ask your opponent permission for using the pieces which have the 40k logo on them in IA book. I'm making a mono-nurgle army and putting a blight drone in it, does that mean that i will have to ask every opponent every time if i can use it?

Yes, you will have to ask your opponents if you are pulling anything from anywhere outside the normal Codex. This is because most opponents that will agree to play a game of 40K will expect it to be a standard game of 40K, and not a game of 40K with IA books included, uless that is stated when you set the game up.

You will have to ask every time, it is just common courtesy.

2 things immediately stick out at me ifyou say that, firstly then why would they even bother with labelling them 40000 and apocalypse then if the same rules apply and secondly if it doesn't say this anywhere the makers of the game evidently aren't trying to limit my army.

olim wrote:I can't find where in any book it says that you have to ask your opponent permission for using the pieces which have the 40k logo on them in IA book. I'm making a mono-nurgle army and putting a blight drone in it, does that mean that i will have to ask every opponent every time if i can use it?

The Blight Drone is in Imperial Armour Apocalypse II, which was before they started stamping things with "40k" or "Apocalypse" (this only really started in the confusingly-named Imperial Armour Apocalypse: Second Edition). Indeed, IAA2 actually specifically says that it should be considered "official" (p3), while IAA:2E states that they are "official", with the caveat that you should still check with your opponent to make sure they understand the IA rules and are fine with playing them.

In any case, you can never say that nothing requires your opponent's consent. Every game is a social interaction, not a contract; they have no obligation to play against you, and can decline a game if you intend on using models they don't want to face. The best way to deal with this is to simply tell your opponent that you'd like to use IA rules, and offer to show them the rules and explain how they work well before the game begins. Of course, you don't really have to do anything, but it's a simple courtesy to do it anyway.

They label them 40K, and apocalypse because they are two very different rulesets.

and secondly this game is a permissive ruleset. it must say you can do something for you to be able to do it. "It doesn't say I can't" does not fly.

Bottom line is most players will expect a normal game of 40K, they will not expect anything outside of the standard codex, AKA, no IA units, or Apoc formations.

It is just common courtesy to ask every time.

olim wrote:2 things immediately stick out at me ifyou say that, firstly then why would they even bother with labelling them 40000 and apocalypse then if the same rules apply and secondly if it doesn't say this anywhere the makers of the game evidently aren't trying to limit my army.

The point of those labels is to tell you what rules systems those units are intended for. For example, that you can't use a titan in a regular game, but a Dreadclaw you can. And of course they aren't trying to limit your army (they are trying to sell you models, after all), but it's very simple courtesy and sportsmanship to make sure your opponent understands your army before the game and that they are comfortable with playing against you.

A player can turn down your list for having Imperial Armour units just the same as a player can turn down an opponent simply because they play Grey Knights.

It doesn't even matter what the rules say in such an instance, it's just that less people are familiar with Imperial Armour stuff and as such might be reluctant to play against it without advanced warning, not because you are breaking any rule by doing so, but simply because they aren't comfortable with it.

DeathReaper wrote:They label them 40K, and apocalypse because they are two very different rulesets.

and secondly this game is a permissive ruleset. it must say you can do something for you to be able to do it. "It doesn't say I can't" does not fly.

Bottom line is most players will expect a normal game of 40K, they will not expect anything outside of the standard codex, AKA, no IA units, or Apoc formations.

It is just common courtesy to ask every time.

They DO say they're allowed, so there's your permission. Obviously it'll still be a good idea to tell your opponent though.

I know in most (if not all) IA books, it says at the beginning you must have your opponents permission, in order to use those rules.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:They label them 40K, and apocalypse because they are two very different rulesets.

and secondly this game is a permissive ruleset. it must say you can do something for you to be able to do it. "It doesn't say I can't" does not fly.

Bottom line is most players will expect a normal game of 40K, they will not expect anything outside of the standard codex, AKA, no IA units, or Apoc formations.

It is just common courtesy to ask every time.

They DO say they're allowed, so there's your permission. Obviously it'll still be a good idea to tell your opponent though.

I can not find where Apoc units are allowed in the BRB. Page Please.

DeathReaper wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:They label them 40K, and apocalypse because they are two very different rulesets.

and secondly this game is a permissive ruleset. it must say you can do something for you to be able to do it. "It doesn't say I can't" does not fly.

Bottom line is most players will expect a normal game of 40K, they will not expect anything outside of the standard codex, AKA, no IA units, or Apoc formations.

It is just common courtesy to ask every time.

They DO say they're allowed, so there's your permission. Obviously it'll still be a good idea to tell your opponent though.

I can not find where Apoc units are allowed in the BRB. Page Please.

It's pretty clear he meant IA units, not apoc, and as a counterpoint to your oh so elegant argument;

"I can not find where Blood Angels units are allowed in the BRB. Page Please"

MUAHAHA smart arse answer!
"The army lists included in
the Warhammer 40,000 Codex books specify the
precise characteristics and abilities......" p.86

But seriously, the only issue is that lots of people haven't the foggiest idea of IA units and their rules. Introduce it gently, saying my army is made up using these IA rules, I got the book here, etc etc, don't go NOW HERES MY BLIGHT DRONE ITS SWEET WHAT YOU HAVEN'T PLAYED IT BEFORE PREPARE FOR LULZ! And yes, if you were that annoying you'd be talking in caps. I'm assuming you were going to go the first way, the gentle, respectful, sensible way. In which case I'd have no problems, but you'd better be ready for nifty IA units in our next game

Perhaps as a middle ground offer to let them have a riffle through your IA book and if there is any unit that they have the model for, let them adjust their army real quick to include that?

And one thing to keep in mind is that most tourneys are 40k only, which is what most people will be expecting in casual games as well.

That being said, most people will be perfectly willing to accept other GW sources if you provide the rules for the unit and give them a chance to look over the entry. Just dont expect to be able to use IA or apoc units in 40k tournements.



Sliggoth

Drunkspleen wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
They DO say they're allowed, so there's your permission. Obviously it'll still be a good idea to tell your opponent though.

I can not find where Apoc units are allowed in the BRB. Page Please.

It's pretty clear he meant IA units, not apoc, and as a counterpoint to your oh so elegant argument;

"I can not find where Blood Angels units are allowed in the BRB. Page Please"

"The army lists included in
the Warhammer 40,000 Codex books specify the
precise characteristics and abilities......" p.86 (As listed before).

And now I will amend...

I can not find where IA units are allowed in the BRB. Page Please.

I gave you your page#, give me the one I ask for, or your point is moot.

Or we could not get bogged down in yet another argument over the legality of IA.

At the end of the day, what it says in the book is more or less irrrelevant. Because they are not as widely available to all, people are less familiar with IA rules. That, combined with the (arguably false) impression that a lot of people have about Forgeworld stuff being overpowered leads to many people distrusting those rules, and not being prepared to accept them as legal regardless of what the books may say.

So, in order to avoid issues, it's always best to discuss with your opponent if you want to use anything that is not from the standard codex. No matter how 'right' you think you may be on the legality of whatever publication you are trying to use, you can't force someone to play against you if they don't want to play against whatever you are trying to field.

That is true Insaniak.

What I said before is true:

DeathReaper wrote:Bottom line is most players will expect a normal game of 40K, they will not expect anything outside of the standard codex, AKA, no IA units, or Apoc formations.

It is just common courtesy to ask every time.

DeathReaper wrote:"The army lists included in
the Warhammer 40,000 Codex books specify the
precise characteristics and abilities......" p.86 (As listed before).

And now I will amend...

I can not find where IA units are allowed in the BRB. Page Please.

I gave you your page#, give me the one I ask for, or your point is moot.

That doesn't say they are legal, just that they specify characteristics, abilities, and as the quote proceeds, point values, but it doesn't say they are legal to use in a standard game of 40k.

Drunkspleen wrote:That doesn't say they are legal, just that they specify characteristics, abilities, and as the quote proceeds, point values, but it doesn't say they are legal to use in a standard game of 40k.

They do if you look at the context on page 86.

DeathReaper wrote:

Drunkspleen wrote:That doesn't say they are legal, just that they specify characteristics, abilities, and as the quote proceeds, point values, but it doesn't say they are legal to use in a standard game of 40k.

They do if you look at the context on page 86.

If you're going to be like that then I'd like to point out that the BRB doesn't define what a "Codex" is. "In context" the part at the beginning of Imperial Armour Apocalypse Second Edition makes it just as official as any Codex, but recommends that you ask first. We're basically agreeing with each other about asking first, but not about the de jure status of Imperial Armour books.

It can be down to your local gaming group.

My friends and i agreed a whiel ago that IA rules are ok, but you need specific permission if you want to bring any Apoc formatios or superheavies.

part of thsi was because on of our guys wanted to do a "proper" Red Scorpions army from one of the IA books.

As far as i can tell most of the IA rules tend to be fairly balanced but some Apoc stuff coudl be an auto-win if your opponent didnt know it was coming.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

Drunkspleen wrote:That doesn't say they are legal, just that they specify characteristics, abilities, and as the quote proceeds, point values, but it doesn't say they are legal to use in a standard game of 40k.

They do if you look at the context on page 86.

If you're going to be like that then I'd like to point out that the BRB doesn't define what a "Codex" is. "In context" the part at the beginning of Imperial Armour Apocalypse Second Edition makes it just as official as any Codex, but recommends that you ask first. We're basically agreeing with each other about asking first, but not about the de jure status of Imperial Armour books.

The BA book says its a codex, so by definition it is. Where's the word codex in the IA book?

The simplest way to determine what is legal is to look at what GW/ FW/ IA themselves say is legal.


In the forward (second page) of Imperial Armour Apocalypse they themselves say that the Codexes and the rulebook are official, everything else is up to the players to add if they both wish.

Most IA units really arent at all overpowerd, many of them can argueably be considered slightly weak. Of course, there are a few that have been overpowered, and those few are the ones that cause people to react badly to the suggestion of using IA. If there is an op unit there WILL be people who will build an army to abuse that power. Seeing or even just hearing about the carnage that one of these broken units can cause spoils the entire idea of using IA in normal play.

Plus there is the problem for many US players that the IA army books simply arent available through any normal channels.



Sliggoth

Imperial Armour 11 wrote:
3. Warhammer 40,000 Unit: ...As with all our models,these should be considered 'official', but owing to the fact they may be unknown to your opponent, it's best to make sure they are happy to play a game using Forge World models before you start.

Happyjew wrote:

Imperial Armour 11 wrote:
3. Warhammer 40,000 Unit: ...As with all our models,these should be considered 'official', but owing to the fact they may be unknown to your opponent, it's best to make sure they are happy to play a game using Forge World models before you start.

The models are official.

However, because your opponent might have a problem with it, you'd be better off asking.

The same could be said of a new or controversial codex.

True enough. Discuss beforehand - explain the unit to them. maybe they will find a unti in the book that they want to field as well.