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Hello everyone.

I was recently reading the CSM codex again and came across fabius biles enhanced warriors rule. It states that the effected unit is "At +1 strength for the remainder of the game"

Does this mean it's a stat change, or some silly modifier that's not temporary?

The reason I ask is I am wondering for how it interacts with things like powerfists

Another listing for the same rule (but different result) states "Add +2 strength for the entire game"

I'm inclined to believe it's a permanent stat change, but that rule that says you add after you multiply is messing with my head.

Any help is appreciated.

Just going by the wording of the rule, I would say it replaces their base strength entry for the duration of the game, rather than being added as a modifier each time.

I would argue then that Fabulous Bile gives you S10 PF rather than S9.

Then again I play GKs so I'm pretty generous with my S10 hammers

DoW

yeah having looked too, i would agree with Dog

Hmmm. I think I agree, but I can see how this would be a tricky issue. Doesn't furious charge give +1 for the turn? It's the same wording with a different duration. But SM's with furious charged PFs are strength 9.

thats right death, but the wording for the Fab enhance is a bit diferent.

sorta like the DW company banner adding +1 attack to the models profile, rahter than +1 attack while the banner is alive

one is permanent the other isnt

Good point. I'm all in favor of this since I've got a fabius bile list.

They are strength 4(5), and as per the rules in the BRB *and* mathematics in general, you multiply then add. S9 powerfists.

The stat increase is added before the pf multiplyer, therefore it would be str10. If it was meant to be str4 (5) it would state this in the rules.

It states this in the rules because the +1S is by definition a modification to the users strength, in the same way +!T from a bike is also a modifier (to T). As this is an additive modifer it is evaluated after the multiplicative modifier of a powerfist

S9 powerfists is the RAW on this.

I'll agree nos that you add before multiplying, but since the primary rule in question states they are " At +1 strength " I didn't think the normal stuff applied here, since the later entry says you " Add +2 strength " which leads me to believe the rule modifiers their primary stat line.

If you can prove to me the rule doesn't modify their base stat, then yes the standard method for +1 str and a powerfist works.

The other question is what if the models need a strength test? Are they still always str 4? Or do we start using str 4(5) and 4(6)? Also, where does it say such strength acts this way? I know chaos demons upgrades, frost blades and a few other things increase strength, not sure on their wording though.

This is no different to Mark of Nurgle or Mark of Slaanesh

MoN is +1T, so models are T4(5)
MoS is +1I, so models are I4(5) (for example)

Characteristic tests are aways on the characteristic unless specified as "unmodified" - sweeping advance specifies unmodified, so slaanesh marked CSM are at I4 for sweeping advance

It is defined by the rulebook as a modifier, and thus comes after multiplying. I dont have to prove this any more than by pointing to the rulebook section on modifiers - it is defined as one by those sets of rules, so you have to prove it isnt.

Ok, I see.

So were does it state that those bonuses besides toughness become "x (y)"? Every since CSM unit with a mark built in doesn't have the stat as "x (y)" they have it as "y", except for vaules involving toughness.

Noise marines are int 5, berzerkers have 2 attacks, how is this any different? I never mentioned these, but for reference they state that the model "gains" the + 1, and in regard to the fabius results the models being "at +1" sounds like the same thing.

It doesnt need to, as the rulebook defines them as modifiers.

Prove that, despite them fitting the rulebook definition of a modifier, that they are not a modifier.

You missed Plague Marines, which are T4(5) - are you suggesting that MoN marines would be T5 then? Because if you are then you are stating they get a FNP save frmo a krak missile where the cults would not.....

Nos is right on this. Anything that adds to or subtracts from a stat is a modifier, and the rules specify you multiply before you add.

Striking Scorpion Exarchs use to have a power you could take which gave them a permanent +1Str, and GW confirmed it was still S7 total with their fist, not S8. Same with 3.5-codex Chaos Marines with Daemonic Strength. That gave a permanent +1Str but with a Fist you only got S9 total, not S10.

The only exceptions are when GW specifically and explicitly states that a modifier/change is to the base statline, as they did with Thunderwolves. But IIRC Thunderwolves may be the only thing that works that way currently.

The Mark of Nurgle would make the models T5 if the rule didn't specify that it didn't count for Instant Death.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:The Mark of Nurgle would make the models T5 if the rule didn't specify that it didn't count for Instant Death.

No, it wouldnt, because AGAIN the rules IN THE RULEBOOK define said stat increase as a modifier. That line is, as per usual, redundant GW writing.

It is a modifier, so is 4(5)
This is a S modifier, so they are S4(5)

Unless you have a rule saying they arent a modifier (which you dont ) or explicit permission to add then multiply (you dont, cf to hammerhand) then it is S9 for powerfists.

THAT simple

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Prove that, despite them fitting the rulebook definition of a modifier, that they are not a modifier.

What I am asking for is why a mark of slanessh and a mark of khorne can adjust a models stat-line permanently, yet a permanent +1 strength cannot. Why aren't the stat lines for noise marines initative 4(5)?

Were aren't talking about nurgle here, this isn't about values involving toughness, it's about strength.

I'm seeing consistency with regard for modifiers to toughness, they get brackets. But no were in any book does it show or give any intent that we list permanent modifiers the same way.

The enhanced warrior rule doesn't have any mention of applying the bonuses to the models profile, though you have to do so for it to work (were as the space wolves thundercav state add to profile)

Then again, adding the space wolves bonuses is still adding, so do we do this the same way? Or is this in the SW FAQ.

Anything that changes the statline is a modifier, per the rulebook. Doesn't really matter if it's permanent or situational. Back when 3.5 Chaos could double Attacks, for example (old Dreadnought frenzy, and that Khorne Daemon weapon), you doubled the base stat and then added the +1 for charging on top of that.

The reason Toughness gets brackets is because Instant Death means the difference matters more often.

Mannahnin wrote:Anything that changes the statline is a modifier, per the rulebook. Doesn't really matter if it's permanent or situational.

So Space wolf Lords on a Thunderwolf wielding a Thunderhammer are only Str 9, but the one guy in the unit of TWC that has a Thunderhammer is Str 10?

The implication from the faq is no, S10

DeathReaper wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:Anything that changes the statline is a modifier, per the rulebook. Doesn't really matter if it's permanent or situational.

So Space wolf Lords on a Thunderwolf wielding a Thunderhammer are only Str 9, but the one guy in the unit of TWC that has a Thunderhammer is Str 10?

Pardon, I miswrote. If a given modifer is stated as changing the base statline, and specified as doing so, it will apply before doubling. As page 4 of the SW FAQ makes explicitly clear. But not all bonuses are considered to change the base statline, and in fact the default condition is that they don't, as with bikes, Mark of Nurgle, Mark of Slaanesh, etc.

Mannahnin wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:Anything that changes the statline is a modifier, per the rulebook. Doesn't really matter if it's permanent or situational.

So Space wolf Lords on a Thunderwolf wielding a Thunderhammer are only Str 9, but the one guy in the unit of TWC that has a Thunderhammer is Str 10?

Pardon, I miswrote. If a given modifer is stated as changing the base statline, and specified as doing so, it will apply before doubling. As page 4 of the SW FAQ makes explicitly clear. But not all bonuses are considered to change the base statline, and in fact the default condition is that they don't, as with bikes, Mark of Nurgle, Mark of Slaanesh, etc.

Okay, I thought it was Str 10 for the lord, then I read your post and had that question for clarification.

Fair enough! I get sloppy and make mistakes from time to time, that's for sure.

Yes, they're S9 Fists. Nothing else to say.

Except, Gimlison has the best avatar EVA! Who is that BTW?

Mannahnin wrote:Fair enough! I get sloppy and make mistakes from time to time, that's for sure.

Everyone does, thats for sure Worst one is making absolute statements, they always () come back to bite you when you forget that there is almost always an exception somewhere in GWs rules.....

Ok so my question regarding if the rule affected the base stat line because it doesn't say it does has somewhat been answered. Thanks.