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I was discussing the necron doomsythe's death ray on a different forum and an argument came up of if your allowed to measure to the starting position from the doomsythe anywhere within the twelve inches or if you have to guess what would be within twelve inches and then place the marker there.

so would it be:
measure twelve inches from the gun and pick the point to start the line

or:
place the marker at a location you think is within 12 and then measure to see if it is in range


I think it would be the second option as you normally can't per-measure distances.


Also as a secondary argument that came up about the death ray:
If night fighting is in effect and you shoot at something with the deathray and then also shoot at a unit with the tesla destructor would you need to roll for night fighting and if you fail would both shots auto miss?

I assume that you do need to roll for night fighting distance and that if the destructor doesn't get sufficent range then all shots would miss.

You "pick a point within the weapons range", and given you *have* to do that then i would say premeasuring is in - otherwise you cannot comply with the rule

TheAvengingKnee wrote:Also as a secondary argument that came up about the death ray:
If night fighting is in effect and you shoot at something with the deathray and then also shoot at a unit with the tesla destructor would you need to roll for night fighting and if you fail would both shots auto miss?

I assume that you do need to roll for night fighting distance and that if the destructor doesn't get sufficent range then all shots would miss.

Yes, you need to roll for night fighting and if your target is not within the rolled spotting distance you cannot fire any weapons that turn, I would even argue that, regardless of whether you are firing the destructor or not, you still need to nominate a target within LOS to be eligible to fire the Death Ray as per the standard shooting rules.

Regarding Night Fighting firstly, correct, if outside your vision, you may not fire.

Remember that your target point doesn't have to be a unit, however.

As for the range thing - the correct process is thus:

Measure 12" from the Doom Scythe in any/all directions.
Pick a point within that radius.
Roll 3d6.
Measure that result in inches in any/all directions of the target point.
Trace the line between the two chosen points.
Declare the target for the Tesla weaponry, if firing.
Roll to hit with Tesla weapons, following the normal process.
Before any Wound Allocation or Saves, resolve the results of the Death Ray.
Apply Wound Allocation/ Cover Saves/ damage results/whatever as with any other unit firing multiple weapons at a target(s).

Drunkspleen - the DR hasa specific exemption to the usual shooting rules, as you do NOT pick a target for it.

Agreed, every interpretation I've seen of this so far, exempts it from nightfighting as there is no target.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Drunkspleen - the DR hasa specific exemption to the usual shooting rules, as you do NOT pick a target for it.

I dispute that, it has special rules for resolving its firing but nothing exempts the Doom Scythe from the standard rules of needing to nominate a target as part of it's shooting, and nothing exempts it from the rule under the heading "Which Models Can Fire?" which says "All models in the firing unit that have line of sight to at least one model in the target unit can fire".

Obviously there are some slight modifications in the vehicle rules but fundamentally they still follow this principle, with models replaced by individual weapons. Without Line of Sight to a nominated target unit, a model (or weapon on a vehicle) cannot fire. The Death Ray is not immune to this, it only has special rules changing how you resolve the attack once you determine it has a valid line of sight.

Well as sad as I am about being wrong, being able to measure the 12" and place within that make the weapon so much nastier.

Drunkspleen - it is exempt because it never gets past the first part - choose a target. Note that the requirement is to have LOS to the target unit, there is NO target unit for the death ray

Also LOS /= Night fight spotting distance, before we go further.

It entirely replaces the rules for shooting - read the very first line "to fire the death ray"

nosferatu1001 wrote:Drunkspleen - it is exempt because it never gets past the first part - choose a target. Note that the requirement is to have LOS to the target unit, there is NO target unit for the death ray

Also LOS /= Night fight spotting distance, before we go further.

It entirely replaces the rules for shooting - read the very first line "to fire the death ray"

sure, LOS isn't nightfighting, but given my belief that the Doom Scythe still has to nominate a target, even when just firing the Death Ray, it triggers the Nightfighting rules which happen "After selecting a target, but before a unit fires".

those special rules do exactly what they tell you they do, they tell you how to fire the Death Ray, but before you can fire it, or indeed any weapon you have to determine "Which Models Can Fire?" if your model (or weapon on a vehicle) does not meet the criteria for being fired, then you can't follow it's special rules that tell you how to fire it.

Drunkspleen wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Drunkspleen - it is exempt because it never gets past the first part - choose a target. Note that the requirement is to have LOS to the target unit, there is NO target unit for the death ray

Also LOS /= Night fight spotting distance, before we go further.

It entirely replaces the rules for shooting - read the very first line "to fire the death ray"

sure, LOS isn't nightfighting, but given my belief that the Doom Scythe still has to nominate a target, even when just firing the Death Ray, it triggers the Nightfighting rules which happen "After selecting a target, but before a unit fires".

those special rules do exactly what they tell you they do, they tell you how to fire the Death Ray, but before you can fire it, or indeed any weapon you have to determine "Which Models Can Fire?" if your model (or weapon on a vehicle) does not meet the criteria for being fired, then you can't follow it's special rules that tell you how to fire it.

It doesn't matter what your "given belief" is. The Death Ray picks a POINT, not a UNIT. It does not target the point, and because of this it is not subject to Night Fighting or LOS restrictions.

The Death Ray is not a direct fire weapon. It's not aiming at any specific thing. It's picking an arbitrary starting point and sweeping across the field. It doesn't matter if it sees the enemy or not, it simply sweeps the beam across the field.

McNinja wrote:It doesn't matter what your "given belief" is. The Death Ray picks a POINT, not a UNIT. It does not target the point, and because of this it is not subject to Night Fighting or LOS restrictions.

The Death Ray is not a direct fire weapon. It's not aiming at any specific thing. It's picking an arbitrary starting point and sweeping across the field. It doesn't matter if it sees the enemy or not, it simply sweeps the beam across the field.

Sure, but you don't start rolling to hit with your boltguns before declaring your Marines are shooting that squad of Ork Sluggas over there, similarly, you don't start resolving the Death Ray using it's special rules for firing until you have declared a target for the Doom Scythe, this is just the standard sequence for firing any weapon in the game, and just because you have a special way for resolving the Death Ray attack does not exempt you from it, because those special rules don't tell you not to declare a target, they just tell you what happens when you fire a Death Ray, in lieu of rolling to hit and proceeding as normal.

However you do start shooting the Death Ray by choosing a point within the weapon's range. How the boltgun works is inconsequential. The Death Ray has its own separate rules.

Ghaz wrote:However you do start shooting the Death Ray by choosing a point within the weapon's range. How the boltgun works is inconsequential. The Death Ray has its own separate rules.

Which you can't use until given permission to fire the Death Ray, and to fire any weapon you must nominate a target unit and determine that the weapon can draw Line of Sight to that unit.

No. The Deathray does not target units. It picks a point, you roll 3d6 and draw a line. The rules for the Deathray overrule the general firing sequence. Or are you suggesting that if the Deathray hits 2 units that is illegal since the rules specify you can only target 1 unit with a shooting attack?

no, I am not suggesting that, plenty of weapoms can hit multiple units, all still require a target to be nominated before you can follow the rules for firing those weapons.

Heck just look at the rules for Blast weapons:

"When firing a blast weapon, models do not roll to hit, instead just pick one enemy model visible to the firer and place the blast marker (see diagram) with its hole over the base of the target model"

It's almost exactly the same, it gives you a set of unique rules for firing a certain type of weapon, that doesn't mean if you are firing only blast weapons you can ignore the normal rules that mandate you have to nominate a target unit (and as a corollary, test for night fighting if it is active) before you can even determine if the weapon is eligible to fire (using Line of Sight).

(Note: I don't mention Line of Sight here as a result of it being mentioned in the blast weapon rules, you would need Line of Sight to the target unit to be eligible to fire anyway. It being mentioned in the blast weapon rules only prevents you from putting the blast over models that are not in Line of Sight who are members of a unit that is in Line of Sight.)

Being told how to fire something is simply not sufficient on it's own to ignore these rules

Blast weapons tell you to pick a model, ie target a unit to shoot at. The Deathray specifies no such thing. You simply pick a point on the battlefield. Heck if you roll poorly you might not hit anything.

If I aim my Deathray at a hill what is my target unit?

Whatever unit you nominated as your Doom Scythe's target before starting to fire its weapons is your target unit, regardless of where you choose to put the Death Ray.

Drunkspleen wrote:Whatever unit you nominated as your Doom Scythe's target before starting to fire its weapons is your target unit, regardless of where you choose to put the Death Ray.

The blast weapon rules only replace the roll to hit (we know that because they say "models do not roll to hit, instead...") so they're a bad comparison.

And the quoted statement cannot be correct. The Death Ray doesn't target a unit - if it did, the final sentence in its rules would make no sense.
If you fire the tesla, it must be fired at a unit the Death Ray hits. Not a unit the Death Ray targets, just hits.

rigeld2 wrote:

Drunkspleen wrote:Whatever unit you nominated as your Doom Scythe's target before starting to fire its weapons is your target unit, regardless of where you choose to put the Death Ray.

The blast weapon rules only replace the roll to hit (we know that because they say "models do not roll to hit, instead...") so they're a bad comparison.

And the quoted statement cannot be correct. The Death Ray doesn't target a unit - if it did, the final sentence in its rules would make no sense.
If you fire the tesla, it must be fired at a unit the Death Ray hits. Not a unit the Death Ray targets, just hits.

Why does that rule not make sense? You nominate a target, fire your Death Ray, and then, so long as the nominated target was hit by the death ray, are still eligible to fire the Tesla.

Drunkspleen wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Drunkspleen wrote:Whatever unit you nominated as your Doom Scythe's target before starting to fire its weapons is your target unit, regardless of where you choose to put the Death Ray.

The blast weapon rules only replace the roll to hit (we know that because they say "models do not roll to hit, instead...") so they're a bad comparison.

And the quoted statement cannot be correct. The Death Ray doesn't target a unit - if it did, the final sentence in its rules would make no sense.
If you fire the tesla, it must be fired at a unit the Death Ray hits. Not a unit the Death Ray targets, just hits.

Why does that rule not make sense? You nominate a target, fire your Death Ray, and then, so long as the nominated target was hit by the death ray, are still eligible to fire the Tesla.

So you're reading it as an additional requirement, not the sole restriction?
IE it has to be a declared target and you must have rolled a high enough distance?

I can't read the Death Ray in any way but that it replaces all the shooting rules. No other way makes sense.

And pray tell what would even be the point of choosing a target (even though the rules for the Death Ray don't require it)? The Death Ray require that you draw the line towards the 'targeted unit' and the Tesla Destructors can be fired at any unit hit by the Death Ray. So tell us, what is the purpose of choosing a 'target' other than wasting time?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Make that "doesn't require"

Drunkspleen wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Drunkspleen wrote:Whatever unit you nominated as your Doom Scythe's target before starting to fire its weapons is your target unit, regardless of where you choose to put the Death Ray.

The blast weapon rules only replace the roll to hit (we know that because they say "models do not roll to hit, instead...") so they're a bad comparison.

And the quoted statement cannot be correct. The Death Ray doesn't target a unit - if it did, the final sentence in its rules would make no sense.
If you fire the tesla, it must be fired at a unit the Death Ray hits. Not a unit the Death Ray targets, just hits.

Why does that rule not make sense? You nominate a target, fire your Death Ray, and then, so long as the nominated target was hit by the death ray, are still eligible to fire the Tesla.

Until a FAQ is made regarding this (which I really doubt will deviate from the general consensus), the general consensus wins out. And I really don't see how you're getting a need to roll to hit anywhere out of the rules for the Death Ray.

Drunkspleen wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Drunkspleen wrote:Whatever unit you nominated as your Doom Scythe's target before starting to fire its weapons is your target unit, regardless of where you choose to put the Death Ray.

The blast weapon rules only replace the roll to hit (we know that because they say "models do not roll to hit, instead...") so they're a bad comparison.

And the quoted statement cannot be correct. The Death Ray doesn't target a unit - if it did, the final sentence in its rules would make no sense.
If you fire the tesla, it must be fired at a unit the Death Ray hits. Not a unit the Death Ray targets, just hits.

Why does that rule not make sense? You nominate a target, fire your Death Ray, and then, so long as the nominated target was hit by the death ray, are still eligible to fire the Tesla.

Bold is mine.
This directly contradicts the actual Doom Scythe rules. The actual rules quote is "If the vehicle's other weaponry is fired in the same shooting phase, it must be fired at at one of the units hit by the death ray." Since otherwise, a unit is only able to fire it's weapon at something it targets, this suggests to me that you only target a unit once you fire the Tesla.
In your example of targeting, you could pick a point next to unit A, target unit B, fail to roll enough distance to reach Unit B, and then be unable to fire the Tesla. But the actual rules say that in this situation, you can fire the Tesla at unit A.
P = Point
A = Unit A
B = Unit B

PA B

Ghaz wrote:And pray tell what would even be the point of choosing a target (even though the rules for the Death Ray don't require it)? The Death Ray require that you draw the line towards the 'targeted unit' and the Tesla Destructors can be fired at any unit hit by the Death Ray. So tell us, what is the purpose of choosing a 'target' other than wasting time?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Make that "doesn't require"

While the rules of the Death Ray don't mention the targetted unit, they don't exempt needing to have a target either, or needing to draw Line of Sight to it to be eligible to fire. The point of it is, the act of nominating a target triggers the requirement to roll spotting distance during Night Fighting and this is the sole target the Tesla Destructors are eligible to fire at (with the additional caveat that they may only do so if the Death Ray hits the targetted unit)

King Pariah wrote:Until a FAQ is made regarding this (which I really doubt will deviate from the general consensus), the general consensus wins out. And I really don't see how you're getting a need to roll to hit anywhere out of the rules for the Death Ray.

Until a FAQ is made, I will play by the RAW, which requires the Doom Scythe be able to spot a target to be eligible to fire any of its weapons.

Irdiumstern wrote:Bold is mine.
This directly contradicts the actual Doom Scythe rules. The actual rules quote is "If the vehicle's other weaponry is fired in the same shooting phase, it must be fired at at one of the units hit by the death ray." Since otherwise, a unit is only able to fire it's weapon at something it targets, this suggests to me that you only target a unit once you fire the Tesla.
In your example of targeting, you could pick a point next to unit A, target unit B, fail to roll enough distance to reach Unit B, and then be unable to fire the Tesla. But the actual rules say that in this situation, you can fire the Tesla at unit A.
P = Point
A = Unit A
B = Unit B

PA B

No, the rules don't allow for such determination, in fact the base rules tell you all weapons from a single unit fire simultaneously, and that all shooting must be declared before beginning to resolve any of it, given the Death Ray rules do not specifically override these core rules, you must have a declared target for your Tesla Destructors before even beginning to resolve the firing of your Death Ray. The special mention of additional weapon system in the Death Scythe rules only adds the restriction that should the Death Ray for some reason not hit the target unit, that unit is now an invalid target for the Doom Scythes additional weapon systems

Let me put the last sentence of the deathrays special fantabulous rules up so we can see what we are dealing with: If the vehicles other weaponry is fired in the same shooting phase, it must be fired at one of the units hit by the death ray.

Heres a question, what BRB rule allows you to shoot non blast weapons that require a target at your own troops?

Heres another snippet from the rule: Every unit (friendly or enemy) underneath the line suffers a number of hits equal to the number of models in the unit underneath the line.

If you are saying that you MUST declare a target for the deathray, then you are saying you have to target your own unit to fire it. Hm, i think this is incorrect.

Most people who have played it, and ive played it against treat it as a variable length template. Not only that, no where in its rules does it ay anything about selecting targets whatsoever EXCEPT in reference to the TL TD.

What you are saying is if Unit A is closest to me, and my FIRST point of firing, and i select unit B to be the target of my TL TD (because "all" firing is simo for this) and i roll triple 3s and ONLY hit unit A even though i was "aiming" for B, absolutely nothing happens. Neither my TL TD or my deathray does anything.

That makes no sense. It explicitly tells you you must select a unit hit by the DRAY to fire the TL TD at.

The majority of players say resolve who the dray hits first, then resolve the TL TD. Even people who vilely despise necrons agree this is so. I have yet to face anyone who believes different and im surprised at the obtuseness the this is bringing out Its like the FAQ about the deathray (paraphrased) If the deathray passes over 2 models in 1 unit, and 3 models in a second unit, how many models are hit? Um er uh ummmm er...5!


Hope im not coming over wrong but...sheesh. Have a nice day!






Automatically Appended Next Post:

No, the rules don't allow for such determination, in fact the base rules tell you all weapons from a single unit fire simultaneously, and that all shooting must be declared before beginning to resolve any of it, given the Death Ray rules do not specifically override these core rules, you must have a declared target for your Tesla Destructors before even beginning to resolve the firing of your Death Ray. The special mention of additional weapon system in the Death Scythe rules only adds the restriction that should the Death Ray for some reason not hit the target unit, that unit is now an invalid target for the Doom Scythes additional weapon systems

I wanted to quote you because you are kind of smearing the matter around here. If you read the special rule, it says that you MUST fire the TL TD at one of the units hit by the death ray. It does NOT say If the TL TD had targeted a unit not hit by the TL TD it now cannot fire.

It says the other weaponry must be fired at one of the units the death ray hits, meaning, you got to figure out what the deathray hits before you can determine who you are shooting at.

I agree that you need to role for night fighting for the Doom Scythe but i think you have to role to see and if you say role 9" then you may place the marker upto 9" away, this is the only way I can see that night fighting will effect the death ray. The tesla destructer is deffinatly effected by night fighting.
So in other words you are targeting a point with the death ray, which as Drunkspleen says you have to be able to see.

smUrfsrUs wrote:I agree that you need to role for night fighting for the Doom Scythe but i think you have to role to see and if you say role 9" then you may place the marker upto 9" away, this is the only way I can see that night fighting will effect the death ray. The tesla destructer is deffinatly effected by night fighting.
So in other words you are targeting a point with the death ray, which as Drunkspleen says you have to be able to see.

I agree.

Lets break this down. The regular rules for firing are as follows:

1. Check LoS and pick a target
2. Check range
3. Roll to hit
4. Roll to wound
5. Take saving throws
6. Remove casualties

Then we look at the Death Ray rules:

"To fire the death ray, nominate a point on the battlefield anywhere within the weapon's range, then nominate a second point within 3D6" of the first. Then, draw a straight line between the 2 points. Every unit (friendly or enemy) underneath the line suffers a number of hits equal to the number of models in the unit underneath the line. If the vehicle's other weaponry is fired in the same shooting phase, it must be fired at one of the units hit by the death ray."

From this we can actually see where the special rules actually replace from the core rules (steps 1, 2 and 3) and at which point they go back to normal (steps 4, 5 and 6). You are told to follow the special rules up to step 4, at which point the regular rules come back into play. Suggesting that they are in addition to the regular rules of picking a target, checking LoS, and rolling to hit is, IMO, wrong.

Using an example to illustrate. I select unit A as my target but place the line through unit B and not A. By your logic my tesla destructor may no longer fire even though the rules explicitly state it has to be fired at a unit hit by the death ray. The only other alternative seems that you must choose not to shoot it which I find ludicrous (unless of course the tesla destructor is out of range, out of LoS or it's firing arc is too limited to shoot).

Regarding Night Fight I disagree that it affects the death ray in any way. The tesla destructor would however be affected, as would its firing arc. If you look at the Night Fight rules it clearly states that you roll for night fight when selecting a target. As shown above you are not targeting any unit, merely picking a point.

Basimpo wrote:

smUrfsrUs wrote:I agree that you need to role for night fighting for the Doom Scythe but i think you have to role to see and if you say role 9" then you may place the marker upto 9" away, this is the only way I can see that night fighting will effect the death ray. The tesla destructer is deffinatly effected by night fighting.
So in other words you are targeting a point with the death ray, which as Drunkspleen says you have to be able to see.

I agree.

I don't. Nowhere in the Doom Scythe's rules does the Death Ray ever pick a target unit, which is part of the requirement for Night Fighting. The HF rules say "After selecting a target, but before a unit fires, a check needs to be made to see if the firers can clearly spot their target through the darkness. Roll 2D6 and multiply the result by 3, then measure the distance between the two units..." There is no other unit. The Death Ray simply picks a starting place and goes from there. Only the Tesla Destructor is subject to NF rules. The Death Ray is not, nor is it subject to LOS restrictions. In fact, the only thing it is subject to is a shaken/stunned/WepDestroyed/wrecked result. Other than that, it does not fire like a normal weapon, hence the extra rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Drunkspleen wrote:
No, the rules don't allow for such determination

They actually do. See "Codex: Necrons" page 50.

in fact the base rules tell you all weapons from a single unit fire simultaneously

Except you cannot fire the Tesla Destructor at anything other than a unit hit by the Death Ray. You MUST resolve the Death Ray first in order to fire the Tesla Destructor at all. Of course, you could opt to not fire the TD, but that's beside the point.

and that all shooting must be declared before beginning to resolve any of it, given the Death Ray rules do not specifically override these core rules

Again, they actually do. Specific > General, and the Death Ray rules are specific in how the Death Ray is supposed to be fired and how the Tesla Destructor can be fired.

you must have a declared target for your Tesla Destructors before even beginning to resolve the firing of your Death Ray.

And again, you cannot declare a target that does not exist prior to resolving the Death Ray.

The special mention of additional weapon system in the Death Scythe rules only adds the restriction that should the Death Ray for some reason not hit the target unit, that unit is now an invalid target for the Doom Scythes additional weapon systems

There is no target unit for the Death Ray. It does not even target a point. it selects a starting point for the Ray. The other weapon on the Death Scythe has no targets whatsoever until the Death Ray's shooting is resolved.