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I know alot of people have been praising the chapterhouse kit for storm ravens... looking at the kit I have to agree, but it seems to me the added length would make it a disavantage for purposes of LOS say for example hiding behind a building.

now the odd part about this is I think it looks good and if it wasn't for the tactical disadvantage I would totally be getting the kit... does that mean I am in some way modeling for advantage by not adding on a kit that I see as a possible tactical disadvantage but want for the look anyway.

now I also have a followup tactics on using the thing... it seems liek a solid weapons platform but at av12 it is kind of squishy... assumign I can't get the thing to 50% cover should I always zip it the 24 inches until it drops off my blender dred and whatevr other models I take in it... also I've heard as a rule take 2 or take none but as i haven't played against them much or with them ever is there truth to this on a btable takeing 2 or none (truth be told only used my bloodangels for the first time last saturday but if its valid I can order another storm raven)

The take 2 comes form the fact that they will draw a lot fire. If there is only one it tends to die real fast.

Yeah, and if there's two then it's stupid expensive. AV 12 means lots of lascannons, autocannons, even multi-lasers having a pop. I have actually wrecked a Storm Raven that had gone flat out once with my last chimera, the SR having withstood 8 meltaguns, 2 Russes and a few Krak Missiles.
It was a beautiful moment.

I really wouln't be concerned about an extra two inches in length. If you can currently find hard cover with a regular stormraven, you'll have no problem finding it with an extra two inches.

There are so few terrain pieces people play with that would actually give a model on a flying stand a cover save. Don't worry about it.

Bear in mind that once a skimmer has finished it's move, it is taken off it's base and placed on the table, so giving you that much cover should be fine as buildings can cover most of the vehicle in this fashion

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:Bear in mind that once a skimmer has finished it's move, it is taken off it's base and placed on the table

It is?

Necroagogo wrote:

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:Bear in mind that once a skimmer has finished it's move, it is taken off it's base and placed on the table

It is?

No, it is not.

Illumini wrote:

Necroagogo wrote:

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:Bear in mind that once a skimmer has finished it's move, it is taken off it's base and placed on the table

It is?

No, it is not.

Wrong, too many people forget this rule, look at page 71 under the end of the first paragraph of moving skimmers, once it is finished it's move it is taken off the base and placed on the table, as it says, it cannot be left hovering in mid air!

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:Wrong, too many people forget this rule, look at page 71 under the end of the first paragraph of moving skimmers, once it is finished it's move it is taken off the base and placed on the table, as it says, it cannot be left hovering in mid air!

Obviously set on table with base still attached to the skimmer...

You're disregarding the explicit denial of removing skimmer bases later on same page:
"If a skimmer is immobilised or wrecked, its base is removed, if possible. [snip] Note that it is not permitted to remove the flying stand other than in the two cases above, as normally skimmers cannot land in battle conditions" (Shooting at skimmers Brb, pg 71)

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

Illumini wrote:

Necroagogo wrote:

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:Bear in mind that once a skimmer has finished it's move, it is taken off it's base and placed on the table

It is?

No, it is not.

Wrong, too many people forget this rule, look at page 71 under the end of the first paragraph of moving skimmers, once it is finished it's move it is taken off the base and placed on the table, as it says, it cannot be left hovering in mid air!

I think you may want to re-read that yourself

Skimmers are not removed from their base unless they are wrecked/destroyed. They must be placed back on the table with their base after each move, not removed from their base.

The exact wording is "Note that a skimmer must be set down on the table and left in place at the end of its move - it cannot be left hovering in midair!"

It goes on to elaborate "If the skimmer is immobilised/wrecked, the base is removed if possible. If this is not possible, don't worry about it. The skimmers anti-grav field is obviously still working and the skimmer will remain hovering in place, incapable of further movement."

I can't imagine 2 inches on a high up flyer are going to matter. It's going to get fired at either way in most cases. Go for the looks!

Now i can understand the statement for where it says on the shooting at skimmers, but what do you then classify as hovering in mid air, as from what i can see it is not physically possible for a skimmer to "Hover in mid air" without the use of a flying base, so please, explain to me what it means.

Another thing is that i cannot see this in the BRB, as there is no Skimmer section in the fantasy rulebook.

Also, bear in mind that later in that paragraph it refers to a wrecked skimmer hovering wrecked in mid air if it cannot be taken off of it's base, suggesting that while on it's base it is "Hovering in Mid Air"

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:Now i can understand the statement for where it says on the shooting at skimmers, but what do you then classify as hovering in mid air, as from what i can see it is not physically possible for a skimmer to "Hover in mid air" without the use of a flying base, so please, explain to me what it means.

Another thing is that i cannot see this in the BRB, as there is no Skimmer section in the fantasy rulebook.

Also, bear in mind that later in that paragraph it refers to a wrecked skimmer hovering wrecked in mid air if it cannot be taken off of it's base, suggesting that while on it's base it is "Hovering in Mid Air"

It tells you that you cannot say that your skimmer "hovers" 24" above the table, even though it can "fly" it has to be placed back at the table (on its base) when it has finished its move.

Illumini wrote:

It tells you that you cannot say that your skimmer "hovers" 24" above the table, even though it can "fly" it has to be placed back at the table (on its base) when it has finished its move.

Where? I cannot see such a thing where it says, You cannot say that it hovers 24" above the table and therefore has to be placed back on the base when it finishes it's move.

Illumini wrote:

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:Now i can understand the statement for where it says on the shooting at skimmers, but what do you then classify as hovering in mid air, as from what i can see it is not physically possible for a skimmer to "Hover in mid air" without the use of a flying base, so please, explain to me what it means.

Another thing is that i cannot see this in the BRB, as there is no Skimmer section in the fantasy rulebook.

Also, bear in mind that later in that paragraph it refers to a wrecked skimmer hovering wrecked in mid air if it cannot be taken off of it's base, suggesting that while on it's base it is "Hovering in Mid Air"

It tells you that you cannot say that your skimmer "hovers" 24" above the table, even though it can "fly" it has to be placed back at the table (on its base) when it has finished its move.

you know... i can imagine people claiming this... my [insert flying model name here] is flying 72" up so you can't shoot it >_< thats pretty sad but every store has the waac players

as for the kit... i don't think im going to get the chapterhouse kit, decided instead to spend funds on 3 of the new dakka jets for my orks and possibly a 2nd stormraven I'll probably blue tack on the back so I cna revisit the idea of a kit to extend them down the road though. and where I play we use alot of large terrain I think I can hide one pretty well, out necron player hac no problem getting saves with his ghost arcs

G00fySmiley wrote:

Illumini wrote:

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:Now i can understand the statement for where it says on the shooting at skimmers, but what do you then classify as hovering in mid air, as from what i can see it is not physically possible for a skimmer to "Hover in mid air" without the use of a flying base, so please, explain to me what it means.

Another thing is that i cannot see this in the BRB, as there is no Skimmer section in the fantasy rulebook.

Also, bear in mind that later in that paragraph it refers to a wrecked skimmer hovering wrecked in mid air if it cannot be taken off of it's base, suggesting that while on it's base it is "Hovering in Mid Air"

It tells you that you cannot say that your skimmer "hovers" 24" above the table, even though it can "fly" it has to be placed back at the table (on its base) when it has finished its move.

you know... i can imagine people claiming this... my [insert flying model name here] is flying 72" up so you can't shoot it >_< thats pretty sad but every store has the waac players

And how would they leave said skimmer hovering 72" in the air without the use of a base? It's all well and good saying that their skimmer is 72" in the air but how are they going to put it 72" in the air as the model will have to be present on the board, The rules will know that a model must be present on the board so that will not be referring to WAAC players.

I meant as a joke mostly .. but I imagine a modeling for advantage with like a telescopic large antenai instead of a clear plastic piece... or a fishingpole duct taped to the table... heck i don't know hwo it'd get there but i was just imagining somebody trying to say i couldn't fire at their skimmer because they did somehting like this . note I so hope that the new space marine fliers also make it into blood angels, because stormtalon gunships look awesome

G00fySmiley wrote:I meant as a joke mostly .. but I imagine a modeling for advantage with like a telescopic large antenai instead of a clear plastic piece... or a fishingpole duct taped to the table... heck i don't know hwo it'd get there but i was just imagining somebody trying to say i couldn't fire at their skimmer because they did somehting like this . note I so hope that the new space marine fliers also make it into blood angels, because stormtalon gunships look awesome

Yeah i agree, sorry for going OT in a way but the new stormtalons look awesome and i want some in my Grey Knights, but i still don't understand what that text is saying as it doesn't even say it needs to be put on a base, just on the table so saying that it could be put on a fishingpole could be legit!

G00fySmiley wrote:you know... i can imagine people claiming this... my [insert flying model name here] is flying 72" up so you can't shoot it >_< thats pretty sad but every store has the waac players

How could the sentence mean that? it clearly says in the measuring dinstance section that you have to measure to the Hull if you want to shoot a skimmer and it gives you no permission anywhere in the book to remove the model from the table.

The sentence says that you must set the skimmer down on the table at the end of its move which means the actual skimmer otherwise it would have read "Skimmers base".

Luide wrote:You're disregarding the explicit denial of removing skimmer bases later on same page:
"If a skimmer is immobilised or wrecked, its base is removed, if possible. [snip] Note that it is not permitted to remove the flying stand other than in the two cases above, as normally skimmers cannot land in battle conditions" (Shooting at skimmers Brb, pg 71)

Read that again if you are still confused. You don't take a skimmer off its base unless it is destroyed.

newbis wrote:

Luide wrote:You're disregarding the explicit denial of removing skimmer bases later on same page:
"If a skimmer is immobilised or wrecked, its base is removed, if possible. [snip] Note that it is not permitted to remove the flying stand other than in the two cases above, as normally skimmers cannot land in battle conditions" (Shooting at skimmers Brb, pg 71)

Read that again if you are still confused. You don't take a skimmer off its base unless it is destroyed.

I'm reading it again, and then i'm reading the moving skimmers and realising the rulebook is contradicting itself, and seeing as there is no correct FAQ ruling i have to say it will be debated.

I'm in the keep it on it's base (on the table) camp. Troops disembarking from my Valkyrie do so from it's base. If I had to take the base off and set the valk on the table then there would be no base to disembark from. Also land speeders would be all wonky and break something.

The rulebook is quite clear that it's only removed from the base if immobilized or wrecked. When it says it's put on the table at the end of the move it means the whole thing, including the base. It's saying you can't pretend it's flying higher up in the air, even though it can fly over high pieces of terrain and tall units.

IIRC back in 1st and 2nd edition skimmers and jump packs actually had a rule where they were allowed to declare they were flying high, and were considered to be up in the air and out of range of assaults and such.

----------------

As for the original question, it's extremely unlikely to make a difference. The Stormraven almost never gets cover from terrrain, unless the [i]shooter's[i/] right next to to a solid wall or other big terrain piece.

portugus wrote:I'm in the keep it on it's base (on the table) camp. Troops disembarking from my Valkyrie do so from it's base. If I had to take the base off and set the valk on the table then there would be no base to disembark from. Also land speeders would be all wonky and break something.

This is true however it does say under the Valkyrie in particular that you always refer to the base, which isn't the case for other skimmers, so your point is invalid.

The point that no one has answered as as the model will have to be present on the table, how is someone going to say that it is hovering in mid air without the use of a base?

buzzsaw, your the only person on any warhammer forum who has ever suggested that a skimmer must be removed from its base after it moves, i would think someone else would have noticed that if your argument was even remotely valid...general rule of thumb: if your the only one who thinks something is the way you think it is, your probably wrong...that said, im not trying to be rude, i have done that myself about IG heavy weapons on vet squads (someone had convinced me i could take more than one and i was taking it to the mat, i finally admitted i was wrong, but i still laugh at myself over it)

also, heres a logical explanation of why you wouldnt remove the base: eldar skimmer moves flat out...but when it stops (which it hasnt really, just time has been paused so we can actually play the game) its no longer hovering? it would have an incredible amount of inertia and would scrape across the ground and break some probably very important bits...

jordanis wrote:

also, heres a logical explanation of why you wouldnt remove the base: eldar skimmer moves flat out...but when it stops (which it hasnt really, just time has been paused so we can actually play the game) its no longer hovering? it would have an incredible amount of inertia and would scrape across the ground and break some probably very important bits...

I totally get that, it's a very stupid rule, but as RAW it contradict's itself, and therefore you cannot say what is right or wrong, I would never use it as it is a stupid rule however this is now how we play it down our FLGS and a lot of people would agree on how I have ruled it, I would like to know what hovering in mid air is meant as, as it clearly says in the rulebook that models have to be left of the table so I want to know why the Skimmer must be set down on the table after it's move, referring to the skimmer itself rather than the base, and what hovering in mid air means and how a gamer could accomplish making his model hover in mid air whilst still a present model on the table, Games workshop does not have hover technology, you know!

And no, I'm not the only person, I can find plenty of people who would agree with the factors i have pointed out. Even the store manager at my FLGS has agreed to it, although it is a stupid rule I have to repeat, but it's a rule nonetheless.

jordanis wrote:buzzsaw, your the only person on any warhammer forum who has ever suggested that a skimmer must be removed from its base after it moves, i would think someone else would have noticed that if your argument was even remotely valid...general rule of thumb: if your the only one who thinks something is the way you think it is, your probably wrong...that said, im not trying to be rude, i have done that myself about IG heavy weapons on vet squads (someone had convinced me i could take more than one and i was taking it to the mat, i finally admitted i was wrong, but i still laugh at myself over it)

also, heres a logical explanation of why you wouldnt remove the base: eldar skimmer moves flat out...but when it stops (which it hasnt really, just time has been paused so we can actually play the game) its no longer hovering? it would have an incredible amount of inertia and would scrape across the ground and break some probably very important bits...

Nicely said.

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:
what hovering in mid air means and how a gamer could accomplish making his model hover in mid air whilst still a present model on the table, Games workshop does not have hover technology, you know!

A gamer would say: "I place it here, but it is really hovering up here"

I have experienced an opponent pulling this against me when I was very new to the game (back in 4th ed). That is what the rule is there to stop.

You should take this into YMDC if you still can't understand why you are wrong. In my experience, the people who hang there are pretty good at showing you the right way.

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

jordanis wrote:

also, heres a logical explanation of why you wouldnt remove the base: eldar skimmer moves flat out...but when it stops (which it hasnt really, just time has been paused so we can actually play the game) its no longer hovering? it would have an incredible amount of inertia and would scrape across the ground and break some probably very important bits...

I totally get that, it's a very stupid rule, but as RAW it contradict's itself.

it doesnt contradict itself, because it never says to explicity remove the flying stand...RAI you do not remove the flying stand, RAW it says the model must be placed on the board...even look at the images, not a single model has had its flying stand removed.