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SemperMortis wrote:

Kustom kulture really doesn't make much sense for orks though, as the clans are pretty much set in stone. There are no successor clans or similar, like there is for Craftworlds or Chapters.

It would make much more sense to have additional traits for splinter groups like Speed Freeks, The Great Waaagh! or Rebel Grots.

I think I remember reading in the fluff that there are other Klanz but they are so small that they never really get noticed.

Regardless, with SM's having to suffer a full year of not being the most OP faction in the game we all knew it was coming, but with sisters coming out soon and how bad most of the ork codex is compared to the current meta, I HOPE, but don't expect, a large points change for orkz. Add into the equation the fact that competitive orkz are probably the hardest hit by the removal of index options from competitive play and you realize we will need a HEAVY buff in order to continue to be competitive at all.

Maybe calling them custom kultures was a poor choice. I think of it like this, all klans have meks, but maybe you have a badmoon klan with a high proportion of meks. With custom warband creation options you could select traits that fit that narrative/warband design.

Another example could be the warbands from Vigilus (as I remember) where you have a few different deathskull themed groups, but some focus on a particular thing (stompa mobs, dreads, battlewagons, etc.)

Basically I think that if they are going the route of custom traits, that they will find some kind of fluffy justification for orks.

 Jidmah wrote:
Kustom kulture really doesn't make much sense for orks though, as the clans are pretty much set in stone. There are no successor clans or similar, like there is for Craftworlds or Chapters.

It would make much more sense to have additional traits for splinter groups like Speed Freeks, The Great Waaagh! or Rebel Grots.

I didn't know there were successor craftworlds, in fact I think they're pretty set in stone like our klans.

Though I agree there's many ways GW can skin this particular cat. Grot rebels would be fun, and speed freeks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I can all but guarantee there'll be these same rules for Orks and that they'll be equally fluffy and useful as what were seeing now for Craftworlds. I love them to be fair.

The idea of perfectly representing my clan with kustom traits is too cool. Who knows, Trukk Boyz might become more viable!

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I didn't know there were successor craftworlds, in fact I think they're pretty set in stone like our klans.

Eh, kind of. There aren't any new one popping up (because Eldar are dying, not flourishing), but right now you only got rules for the biggest of them. Many smaller ones are somehow related to the big ones.

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Craftworld

Most of them were just alternate paint schemes on the back of eldar boxes though.

I can all but guarantee there'll be these same rules for Orks and that they'll be equally fluffy and useful as what were seeing now for Craftworlds. I love them to be fair.

The idea of perfectly representing my clan with kustom traits is too cool. Who knows, Trukk Boyz might become more viable!

From what I understand, they are customizing warhosts, not craftworlds. You could just have customized Waaagh!'s just the same, overriding whatever clans are participating.

 Jidmah wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I didn't know there were successor craftworlds, in fact I think they're pretty set in stone like our klans.

Eh, kind of. There aren't any new one popping up (because Eldar are dying, not flourishing), but right now you only got rules for the biggest of them. Many smaller ones are somehow related to the big ones.

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Craftworld

Most of them were just alternate paint schemes on the back of eldar boxes though.

I can all but guarantee there'll be these same rules for Orks and that they'll be equally fluffy and useful as what were seeing now for Craftworlds. I love them to be fair.

The idea of perfectly representing my clan with kustom traits is too cool. Who knows, Trukk Boyz might become more viable!

From what I understand, they are customizing warhosts, not craftworlds. You could just have customized Waaagh!'s just the same, overriding whatever clans are participating.

Ehh I never knew there were so many Craftworlds! Madness.

Not a bad idea re the customised WAAAAGGGGHHH!!!s instead. Makes a lot of sense.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I didn't know there were successor craftworlds, in fact I think they're pretty set in stone like our klans.

Eh, kind of. There aren't any new one popping up (because Eldar are dying, not flourishing), but right now you only got rules for the biggest of them. Many smaller ones are somehow related to the big ones.

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Craftworld

Most of them were just alternate paint schemes on the back of eldar boxes though.

I can all but guarantee there'll be these same rules for Orks and that they'll be equally fluffy and useful as what were seeing now for Craftworlds. I love them to be fair.

The idea of perfectly representing my clan with kustom traits is too cool. Who knows, Trukk Boyz might become more viable!

From what I understand, they are customizing warhosts, not craftworlds. You could just have customized Waaagh!'s just the same, overriding whatever clans are participating.

Ehh I never knew there were so many Craftworlds! Madness.

Not a bad idea re the customised WAAAAGGGGHHH!!!s instead. Makes a lot of sense.

customized waaaagggghhhs... I support this.

I'v introduced some smasha mek guns (proxied but thinking these boys might be good as cheap alternatives? https://www.manticgames.com/games/warpath/forge-fathers-warpath/forge-fathers-weapons-platform-formation/)

started using the shokka mek

my ork army (mainly unchanged for like 15 years) suddenly starting to feel almost competitive! I usually bring them out for a fun game but thinking of pitting them vs my mate's harder lists.

Problem is now i'm tempted to just remove units that are not the most efficient and spam more of the same e.g. consider this is my list:



I'm thinking the sluggs need to be 30. Ditch the nobs and storm boyz and take more lootas and another weirdboy etc...

Thinking the army will end up feeling very generic and end up not having that funness about it (but maybe vs competitive stuff ye gotta bite that bullet and have a secondary list). Ugh torn, i'm thinking its a pretty hard list as it stands?

If the main Iron Hands defensive measure is a relic, perhaps the best counter would be a SSAG mek with opportunist?

You can use more dakka to trigger dakkax3 on 5's and 6's to essentially ignore moving (auto-hits on 5+, regardless of modifiers, IIRC) and then pop shoot twice (as he'll die shortly after this turn, if he even gets it) to kill the relic holder, and then chip some wounds off the next biggest target (or finish the relic holder off if you roll badly).

I've not played against them and don't know all their rules so there's some supposition going on here.

 some bloke wrote:
If the main Iron Hands defensive measure is a relic, perhaps the best counter would be a SSAG mek with opportunist?

You can use more dakka to trigger dakkax3 on 5's and 6's to essentially ignore moving (auto-hits on 5+, regardless of modifiers, IIRC) and then pop shoot twice (as he'll die shortly after this turn, if he even gets it) to kill the relic holder, and then chip some wounds off the next biggest target (or finish the relic holder off if you roll badly).

I've not played against them and don't know all their rules so there's some supposition going on here.

The main issue that hinders opportunist from being a useful trait is that it only works within 18 inches. The SSAG wants to sit back, so the only way I can see you getting it into range of a character like that is da jumping it up and unloading. Which basically makes a very good backfield support gun into a suicide unit. And that's if you can even jump him into range. That iron hands character is likely going to be burried in a thicket of vehicles, and with space marine anti-deepstrike shenanagins and scouts to hem you in and limit deployment, I seriously doubt your chances of being able to teleport the SSAG into range.

That's a fair point. What units have we got which can help us against a buried character?

Buzzbomm is too short range, though it can jump across to the character for a one-shot slim chance attack.

jumping in an opportunist is an option - who could be the best unit for this? Am I right in thinking that Badrukk already has a trait as standard?

Perhaps a relic + opportunist combo on the cheapest character possible for a suicide attack?

Cheapest character possible is still the SAG, for Opportunist at least. No other gun we have is even remotely viable for sniping, because of Ork BS. Only character with a gun that is even close to as viable is Badrukk, and he can't take Opportunist.

A dakkajet or wazbom blastajet will make a fine a sniper with the right positioning.

Those are decent options, but talking about the IH Dread character specifically, we really don't have great options. Even the SSAG is only doing like 1 Wound on average against the thing. Best option I can think of is to use Lootas, the SSAG, and Smashas to make a hole for your Boyz to Da Jump in and tie the Dread Ball in CC. You can't really hope to kill the thing, so you're better off just keeping it stuck somewhere while you make VP other way. But even that's tough, since the thing is cheap as chips (leaving plenty of points for the rest of the army).

IH have multiple layers - the trait provides FNP and deadly overwatch, the forgefather has 5++ and insane repairs, the iron stone character reduces damage and the vehicles have native high amount of 3+ T8 wounds. On top of that, scouting units and flyers prevent you from moving up the board and block deep strikes. Even if you manage to kill the ironstone in a suicide attack, their castle is by no means easy to kill, plus they still have smash captains to intercept your klaw boss or shooty mek.

Just a random thought to combat players castling up:

An army list built around using 2-3 units of 30 grots, 2-3 weirdboys with da jump, and the rest of the army being characters (supreme command?)

Turn 1, put a ring of grots around the castle, with 2-3 layers (depending on how many jump) so no hole can be made without killing most of each squad. Try to keep far enough away to make charges difficult for those at the back (so they pull the units out of the buff bubble).

Then roll around with your characters which cannot be targeted by said castle (wartrikes will be good) and kill what's outside his bubble, then take objectives.

Would this work?

 some bloke wrote:
Just a random thought to combat players castling up:

An army list built around using 2-3 units of 30 grots, 2-3 weirdboys with da jump, and the rest of the army being characters (supreme command?)

Turn 1, put a ring of grots around the castle, with 2-3 layers (depending on how many jump) so no hole can be made without killing most of each squad. Try to keep far enough away to make charges difficult for those at the back (so they pull the units out of the buff bubble).

Then roll around with your characters which cannot be targeted by said castle (wartrikes will be good) and kill what's outside his bubble, then take objectives.

Would this work?

What exactly would be doing the killing?

Gretchin have T2, Sv6+, and Ld4. Which, in real basic terms, means they're REAL easy to get rid of. For example:

20 BS4+ shots, with S4, AP-1, and D1 will wipe 8 Gretchin on average, and you'll be losing another 1d6+4 from Morale, so an average of 15.5 Gretchin. That's half the 30 strong mob with barely any effort put in. You're better off using Boyz, who, in addition to having T4 and Mob Rule, can benefit from Kultur and Stratagems. These can make your charges easier, or give them an Invuln or FnP, or allow you to bring them back from the brink.

With all the talk about rest of army being character I'll be stunned if those characters don't include at least one warboss making morale casualties to d3 from warboss smashign heads.

Oh and as for T4...point to point grots are actually tougher against about anything but S2 weapons. How many S2 weapons you are facing?

If his goal for the grots is just sacrificial wall then they do more efficiently than boyz. Boyz are if you want to actually kill something. In terms of survivability more than double the wounds count for more than T4 vs T2 and morale is not that big issue with warboss.

He was specifically talking about Jumping the Gretchin up. If you're Jumping Gretchin, you ain't Jumping a Warboss. Which is why Morale plays a factor in how tough they are.

the specific goal is to put cheap chaff around the clustered army huddling around their warlord, and then use purely characters (who now are untargetable by their ultra-buffed triple-concentrated army) to control the board, take out any outlying units, and ultimately take all the objectives. The buff-city castle would be reduced to shooting at the gretchin - the biggest waste of a buffed castle imaginable. Meanwhile you can pour firepower into them from our HQ's and Meks (not so fussed about runtherds, though they may help with the grots).

You could even have 2 waves of grots to jump in, if facing a shooting ball, you can sacrifice a unit or 2 of grots a turn to keep your pure-character army alive and shooting.

characters we have which can actually do some damage (I'm thinking deffskulls for the rerolls) in rule of 3:

SSAG Mek
SAG Mek x 2
KMB Mek x 3
Badrukk
Wartrike (mainly for mobility) x 3
Weirdboy x 3 (for psychic shooting)

Not sure if I've missed any characters, tellyport blasta megamek is a bit meh. KFF Mek could help maintain the grot wall a bit.

It's basically a variation of the "just ignore the knight" approach, but using grots to hem in the doom-bubble and render it practically worthless - Vs grots, anything higher than S4 or better than AP-1 is wasted. especially if it's buffed out the wazoo.

If they move forwards, you jump the second wave behind them and chase them, staying closer to them than they are to your characters.

Smartest move is to refrain form playing against IHs for now, wait for CA and PA to make us capable of defeating IHs. They are just a couple of months away.

Otherwise there is always luck, because a lucky SAG roll will hurt anything, even an IH repulsor buffed up to withstand hellish firepower.
11 on the strengh, 11 on the number of shots, dakka dakka. Boom goes the repulsor.
The flesh is weak ?
Well Iron ain't so tough now bro

Beauty bout rolling that with the SAG is mortal wounds is not damage profile, so he cant reduce it.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Beauty bout rolling that with the SAG is mortal wounds is not damage profile, so he cant reduce it.

Ooh, nail on the head right here.

What do we got that puts out MW's in addition?

SAG rolling 11+
Megatrakk Scrapjets kick out mortal wounds on the charge
Squiggoths as well
Isn't there a relic/stratagem that lets the warlord do it when they charge?
Kill Tanks do on the charge

And the important bit - if the positioning is right, you can charge something else, not take the leviathans overwatch, move within 1" and give him the MW. Then pile in away from him (getting him out of combat so he can't hit you) and then attack the other unit.

unfortunately orks dont have many ways to do mortal wounds.

SAG S11+ does D3 per hit (not wound, hit)
Weirdboys can Smite of course
Scrapjet/Boostablasta have 4+ on charge deal D3 mortals (boosta sucks balls at melee and scrapjet is so-so though)
Ramming Speed does D3 on a 2+ for a vehicle (i use this more to guarantee the charge than that damage)
Wartrike Snaggaklaw stratagem does D3 mortals when he pulls out of melee. I havnt even had a chance to do this let alone remembered to do it since i have to fall back for it to trigger
Babysquig/Killtank does it but i dont know off hand how much (on charge)
Gargsquig does D6 on a 2+ after charging to EVERYTHING he charged, not just 1 unit like the other guys.
Lifta Droppa does mortal wounds only, but its also laughably overpriced and unreliable as gak lol....
Relic Big Choppa does 2 mortals instead of damage on a wound of 6+
I think the damage the Redder Armor or whatever the Evil Sunz relic was called did mortals, but he has to be in a transport in close proximity. I.e. in ripe "KILL IT NOW" range

Thats...really it. I wish basic Trukks had the Spike Ram ability since..yaknow..they kinda have a spike ram modeled on them? would make trukk spam actually a threat since they could easily dish out a handful of mortals.
Orks can generally cause a random mortal wound pretty commonly since we have several on the charge mortals, but most of the units that can do it really do NOT want to be in melee and we have to suffer overwatch to get it off, usually offsetting any benefit we just got.

Also no that example you said about the leviathan wouldnt work. You cannot end your charge within 1" of something you did not charge, and the "On the Charge" mortal wound effects happen when you successfully charge, not start combat. It happens immediately before you select another unit to charge, so theres no chance to pile in.
That would work to just tie the guy up since iirc he cant fall back and shoot unless hes Ultrasmurfs.

Greenskins, please advise the army for 500 and 750 points against SM. There is only information that RG Shrike will be with his 12 attack from claws. For beginner, with a “start collection” and a couple of boxes, I have to argue for my green beliefs. As I understand it, I need to give preference to Deffskulls or SB in order to protect myself from the doctrine of bolters (-1 AP). Also I will not be able to use deepstrike effectively. Don’t know what to do...

 some bloke wrote:
Just a random thought to combat players castling up:

An army list built around using 2-3 units of 30 grots, 2-3 weirdboys with da jump, and the rest of the army being characters (supreme command?)

Turn 1, put a ring of grots around the castle, with 2-3 layers (depending on how many jump) so no hole can be made without killing most of each squad. Try to keep far enough away to make charges difficult for those at the back (so they pull the units out of the buff bubble).

Then roll around with your characters which cannot be targeted by said castle (wartrikes will be good) and kill what's outside his bubble, then take objectives.

Would this work?

Keep in mind a lot of Marine lists are running 2-3 Eliminator squads since they're so cheap. They can shoot your characters and they don't need LOS to do it.

 Vineheart01 wrote:

That would work to just tie the guy up since iirc he cant fall back and shoot unless hes Ultrasmurfs.

He can be given warlord trait that allows him to consolidiaje 6" in any direction so if he has room to move he consolidiates out of combat, no need to fall back. Better than um as no -1 to hit

tneva82 wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:

That would work to just tie the guy up since iirc he cant fall back and shoot unless hes Ultrasmurfs.

He can be given warlord trait that allows him to consolidiaje 6" in any direction so if he has room to move he consolidiates out of combat, no need to fall back. Better than um as no -1 to hit

A warlord trait that allows him to consolidate out of combat? that sounds like a rules flop not an intended functionality.

Dzeko wrote:
Greenskins, please advise the army for 500 and 750 points against SM. There is only information that RG Shrike will be with his 12 attack from claws. For beginner, with a “start collection” and a couple of boxes, I have to argue for my green beliefs. As I understand it, I need to give preference to Deffskulls or SB in order to protect myself from the doctrine of bolters (-1 AP). Also I will not be able to use deepstrike effectively. Don’t know what to do...

We need to know what else you have to give you decent advice, what other boxes did you buy?

 Vineheart01 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:

That would work to just tie the guy up since iirc he cant fall back and shoot unless hes Ultrasmurfs.

He can be given warlord trait that allows him to consolidiaje 6" in any direction so if he has room to move he consolidiates out of combat, no need to fall back. Better than um as no -1 to hit

A warlord trait that allows him to consolidate out of combat? that sounds like a rules flop not an intended functionality.

It's basically same rule that saim hann can have. Except at least here we are talking about non-flying model that doesn't do some 20" odd move like those eldar autarchs can do so you have more tools to stop it! Eldar one can literally charge, attack and before you get to hit end up 20"+ away from you. This one you can prevent by ensuring there's no base wide open route. Makes it harder but not impossible to keep him in combat. Unlike those eldars.

Mind you it's not certain he will have it(it costs him CP for one, there could be even better WT for leviathan or maybe he wants to have some bike/jump pack beatstick character to do the charge, attack, retreat into safety trick saim hann does. But keep in mind possibility and check from opponent does he have that if you plan to charge into combat.

(also keep in mind you will be likely losing 7-10 models IF you charge outside 8" range. If closer than that the two heavy flamers will add to the death toll...(

 DrGiggles wrote:

Dzeko wrote:
Greenskins, please advise the army for 500 and 750 points against SM. There is only information that RG Shrike will be with his 12 attack from claws. For beginner, with a “start collection” and a couple of boxes, I have to argue for my green beliefs. As I understand it, I need to give preference to Deffskulls or SB in order to protect myself from the doctrine of bolters (-1 AP). Also I will not be able to use deepstrike effectively. Don’t know what to do...

We need to know what else you have to give you decent advice, what other boxes did you buy?

I have:
1 “Start collecting”
+11 Boyz
+10 grotz
+1 warboss
+1 weirdboy

Of course, I will buy more orcs for the necessary army!