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Here is a list I have been tinkering with... So far it is undefeated in my community, but my gaming group is still getting used to the new crons (as most of them are new players), so it isn't a fair litmus. Please take a look and let me know what you think. It is roughly based on the MTO type list that JY2 runs, but with a little tuning to my own collection as well as my own style.

HQ
Overlord - Warscythe, MSS, Phase Shifter, Sempiternal
Command Barge - Gauss
Cryptek - Despair, Veil of Darkness
Cryptek - Destruction
Cryptek - Destruction, Solar Pulse
Destroyer Lord - Mindshackle Scarabs, Sempiternal Weave

Elite
5 Praetorians

Troops
5 Warriors
5 Warriors
9 Immortals

Fast attack
5 Wraiths - 3 Whip Coils, Particle Caster
7 Scarabs
7 Scarabs

Heavy
Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge
2 Canoptek Spyders

1,748 Points - 13 KP - 3 Scoring Units

Typically the scoring units go into reserve, to preserve their existance. The Veiltek goes with the immmortals, the lanceteks either create a small court of their own or parse out one to one with the warriors units (in this case I would deploy the pulse bearing unit and reserve the other two).

Essentially it plays out much like the MTO list. There is a little scarab farming going on, a bunch of jump troops. The Destroyer Lord joins the praetorians (I used to field a ress orb with him but it rarely paid for itself) making them another incredible anti-tank force... who i have also used to walk through several tac squads.

The list is playing great, but there is always room to tweak, I'd like to keep the main feel of an MTO type list, but am open to changes.

One of the things I have been debating is running 2 OL in command barges which also gives two pulses. I know most people run just a ScytheOL in a barge, but in my group everytime I do that my OL gets destroyed very quickly. I have found by giving him the other 75 points in upgrades it keeps him alive in almost every battle i have used him and he is always at least a thorn in my opponents side. Also with the deep striking Immortals, he is never left in some corner because they can come rescue him.

Anyway, I'd like to get some opinions from dakka dakka as the user base here seems a little more in tune with the game, where some other forums are just net list flame wars.

Thanks for your time.

P.S. When I get some cash up I'm going to put some Night Scythes in here as transports. They are almost an even swap with the Annihilation Barges so why not!?

I hate to say, "Praetorians suck", but they really do. I would use the 360 points from the Destroyer Lord and Praetorians to add another Barge Overlord with upgrades.

They certainly do on paper, but when used in this list they have yet to let me down! Usually they're not targeted right away and therefor can get into some nice gooey positions.

They function in this list as additional AT, and also against weakened or MSU units. Without a lot of AT firepower I feel the entropic strike can exponentially help my entire army. I'd ditch them for another unit of Wraiths, but I want 2 units of scarabs. Damn You FOC!!! lol

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This list is that awesome, aye?

No one has an opinion?

praetorians really are that bad. You admit that your opponents are mostly new players, and I would suspect thats probably why your list is doing well, despite the praetorians.

Im not a fan of footslogging troops unless they have a VOD.

During an objective mission, if you choose to reserve your warriors, how do you plan to get them to the objective when they arrive?

If they come out turn 2, they are weak and can be killed easily, and if they come out late game, they wont have enough turns walking 6" to make it very far.

even if you dont shoot and choose to run, at BEST your warriors will move 6" and run 6" from your board edge, still leaving you in your own deployment zone. Next turn you dont shoot and you move 6" and run 6" at best and now your at the exact middle of the battlefield. If the game doesnt go to extra turns, you have no chance to even make it near your opponents deployment zone (where objectives are likely to be)

You only have 1 unit capable of making it to claim/ contest an objective outside your own deploymeny zone, and from personal experience, thats not enough.

If you use VoD to DS in and claim/contest an objective, you have a 2/3 chance of scattering away from where you intended to land.( or scattering into a unit and mishapping)

If you insist on using praetorians, drop the PS from the overlord, drop the scarab units to 5 each and use the points to add a third spyder and get another VoD.

BarBoBot wrote:praetorians really are that bad. You admit that your opponents are mostly new players, and I would suspect thats probably why your list is doing well, despite the praetorians.

Well, they aren't bad, just maybe not the most efficient use of points. If they have the blade/caster options, they'll get the same attacks as Lychguard but as JI have better mobility. Personally, I'd use Sword and Board lychguard to get the invul save.

Actually, in this list, you'd be better off using another squad of wraiths and dropping a scarab squad.

BarBoBot wrote:Im not a fan of footslogging troops unless they have a VOD.

This. Even JI Praetorians need this. Also, the abyssal staff will help thin out the enemy before the combat. Course, with only 1 Court, that is going to be difficult as you can't take an additional VoD.

BarBoBot wrote:During an objective mission, if you choose to reserve your warriors, how do you plan to get them to the objective when they arrive?

If they come out turn 2, they are weak and can be killed easily, and if they come out late game, they wont have enough turns walking 6" to make it very far.

even if you dont shoot and choose to run, at BEST your warriors will move 6" and run 6" from your board edge, still leaving you in your own deployment zone. Next turn you dont shoot and you move 6" and run 6" at best and now your at the exact middle of the battlefield. If the game doesnt go to extra turns, you have no chance to even make it near your opponents deployment zone (where objectives are likely to be)

You only have 1 unit capable of making it to claim/ contest an objective outside your own deploymeny zone, and from personal experience, thats not enough.

Only 1 unit to claim, but can contest with wraiths, scarabs, the AB and CCB. I think we need to assume that at least 1 objective is within walking distance of the edge of the board.

First and foremost - Thank you all for your dialogue. I sincerely appreciate it.

BarBoBot wrote: even if you dont shoot and choose to run, at BEST your warriors will move 6" and run 6" from your board edge, still leaving you in your own deployment zone. Next turn you dont shoot and you move 6" and run 6" at best and now your at the exact middle of the battlefield. If the game doesnt go to extra turns, you have no chance to even make it near your opponents deployment zone (where objectives are likely to be)

I'm not sure why the objectives are all located in my enemies deployment zone. It seems like I must have done a terrible job at placing the objectives then.

I have found more often than not there at least one objective within 14-16 " of my table edge. I can almost for sure make this so if I place at least 2 Objectives in Seize Ground, as I put one on either side of the table 12" from the edge. Then my warriors units only really have to walk 9" to get within the 3" required to claim the objective. All I need to do is win by one, so the entire rest of my army can contest and destroy my opponent, while the grot squad plants its but down and waits.

It is quite risky with only a handful of dudes to hold all of my objectives, but this has yet to be an issue, and watching JY2 MTO... he rarely has that problem. Usually the issues come in when the rest of the army performs flat... and then well, your toast without some crafty play.

MarkCron wrote: Well, they aren't bad, just maybe not the most efficient use of points. If they have the blade/caster options, they'll get the same attacks as Lychguard but as JI have better mobility. Personally, I'd use Sword and Board lychguard to get the invul save.

Actually, in this list, you'd be better off using another squad of wraiths and dropping a scarab squad.

I actually used a list last night running lychguard with a veiltek, and a chronometron... and was absolutely stunned at the resiliance and amount of stuff they can evicerate. The Praetorians admittedly will never have this kind of standing power or shredding power, but being jump Infantry becomes way better when I have to counter-assault a quickly approaching unit, or if I have to respond quickly to a threat. Or If I am facing JoWW.

Admittedly I have been debating on picking up another unit of Wraiths, but I feel like then I am essentially just emulating the popular net lists out there and that doesn't interest me. Eventually I will grab another two units, as I'd like to run an entire wraithwing sometime, but for now.. I'm not sure.

BarBoBot wrote: praetorians really are that bad. You admit that your opponents are mostly new players, and I would suspect thats probably why your list is doing well, despite the praetorians.

Are you saying the entire list is weak and I'm only winning because my players are noobs? or just that the Praetorians are that crappy? I do not want this to become a flamewar situation, but I'm trying to understand what exactly you are getting at here. I will gladly admit the Praetorians are not the most point efficient choice in the codex (like my Warp Spiders), but one, I think, that could be great, especially against Mech, if used properly. Understand I do not use them the same way one would use the Wraiths. They are more of a center of the battle field control, a quick response free safety for my fire base, as I play against a lot of drop podding Dreadnoughts and deep striking Trygons (etc...) - threats that need to be addressed immediately.

Also, a little context. By me saying my players are new I mean we have only been at 5th edition for about 16 months, but we are a group of about 6 players who consistently play 3 or four games a week (usually at least one a piece)... so we're new... but not new. Also, most of use are players from back in early days of 40k and quit in the beginning of the 3rd edition (mostly due to life changes), so we are veterans of the 40k universe. So, with some perspective, I guess perhaps I shouldn't have mentioned it at all. I guess my purpose was more to infer there is a learning curve to fighting the new codexes and I'm not sure how much my victories stem on this curve. I know when creating a list (as I am a veteran Eldar player, but a relative rookie at Necrons - only since the new codex) I feel way less confidant than when I create an Eldar List, and that is soley based on experience.

Much appreciation for the responses. Please keep the dialogue coming!!

Well, first off, I didn't say all the objectives were in your opponents deployment zone... I was actually VERY generous with how far your troops will be able move towards ANY objective. I was pointing out that you have zero chance of ever walking those warriors into an objective located in your opponents deployment zone.

They move 6" a turn with a d6" extra if you run and choose no to shoot.

On average your troop unit without shooting walks 9-10"

When you walk onto the board edge from reserves, 10" won't even make it to the edge of your own deployment zone... The objectives dont have to be in your opponents side, because your warriors on foot cant even make it out of your own deployment zone.

How many turns are your opponents going to let a 5 man squad with a 4+ save walk towards an objective?

Now as for what I said about your list doing good despite the praetorians;

They have 1 attack base, initiative 2, a extremely short range weapon, and no invulnerable save... For 40 points iirc.

Your 200 point unit will jump out, shoot, and then be blasted off the board on your opponents turn, or you can choose to assault whatever you shot at, with their initiative 2 they go last. How many praetorians will live through getting attacked first? Not enough to deal much damage back with their low amount of attacks.

Do I think you list is weak? Yes, but I wasnt flaming you for it.

You said your opponents were new to the game and also new to playing against necrons. That leads me to believe your list is performing well because of that, and not because it's a good list.

Why do I think your list is weak?

1) troops are footslogging. I have already shown how the warriors walking in from the board edge have virtually no chance to claim/contest objectives more than 18-20" away ( that's with MAX movement and above average run rolls)

2) 3 troops may be fine at 1750 for some army lists, but your troops are not protected with a transport and the warrior units are minimum squad sizes. This all means that during objective missions, your troops will not have enough survivabity to make it to an objective let alone hold it (2/3 of the book missions are objectives)

3) praetorians ( for reasons I already explained)

4) not enough ranged anti-armor. As someone who uses annihilation barges, I know they dont kill vehicles very well mostly because of the AP-. They can stun very well, but do not destroy easily. You have scarabs and wraiths that can take out tanks, but good opponents wont just sit there and wait for you. You will need a 4+ or 6+ to hit vehicles depending on how fast they moved. That means most of your attacks will miss. With wraiths, only a 6 on penetration will effect most vehicles, and with scarabs, the entropic strike will lower the vehicles armor, but by how much?

If you hit the vehicle on a 4+, half their attacks miss. You then roll for entropic on 4+ and again only half make it. It's way worse if you need 6's to hit from a vehicle moving fast enough.

Thats after you actually CATCH the vehicle which can move 12" a turn (even non-fast vehicles) AND assuming you still have a full unit of scarabs left when you get there.

It's nothing personal. You asked for criticism, and I gave my 2 cents.

As an experienced Necron player, (couple of years). I would suggest you have more Troops.

Also i would say less scarabs because they aren’t that great, you would be better with a heavy destroyer or two because they are way more likely to destroy the unit (just keep your distance)

But if you are using them as a meat shield and not as anti tank you should keep the scarabs

Gangrel767 wrote:

MarkCron wrote: Well, they aren't bad, just maybe not the most efficient use of points. If they have the blade/caster options, they'll get the same attacks as Lychguard but as JI have better mobility. Personally, I'd use Sword and Board lychguard to get the invul save.

Actually, in this list, you'd be better off using another squad of wraiths and dropping a scarab squad.

I actually used a list last night running lychguard with a veiltek, and a chronometron... and was absolutely stunned at the resiliance and amount of stuff they can evicerate. The Praetorians admittedly will never have this kind of standing power or shredding power, but being jump Infantry becomes way better when I have to counter-assault a quickly approaching unit, or if I have to respond quickly to a threat. Or If I am facing JoWW.

The lychguard with s&b soak up an amazing amount of fire. I usually run them as a mini death star, with Obyron and an orblord and stormtek. I play them aggressively, dropping them into the backfield when deathmarks come in. They take some of the shooting away from the deathmarks and being close increases chance of a deflection shot.

The stormtek works well to open vehicles and provides additional defense when attacked through lightning. And, if a cc isn't going well, you can just ghost walk mantle out of it!

Re troops, I also have three sets at 1750, except mine are all warriors. I generally don't have a problem moving to secure 1 objective, if anything my issue is that they come in too early. however, I always have a LanceTek in every squad, because the lanceteks make the whole unit more resilient. This is because of the ever living factor. So, if all the warriors die, you can still roll for ever living and bring the crypteks back, at which point you have a scoring cryptek. jy2 also does this, except I think for his reserve squad.

And, debatably, if you roll ever living first and the cryptek stands up, then you can roll rp for the rest of the warriors as you only don't get rp if the entire unit is destroyed...and if the crypteks is still there the whole unit wasn't destroyed. However, I don't play this way cos I'm not convinced it's fair.

That last part is not true, the RP rule specifically says crypteks, lords, and IC's do not count for the squad getting back up.

You have to have at least 1 model from the unit still alive to get a RP roll, and crypteks, lords, and IC's dont count towards that.

BarBoBot wrote:That last part is not true, the RP rule specifically says crypteks, lords, and IC's do not count for the squad getting back up.

You have to have at least 1 model from the unit still alive to get a RP roll, and crypteks, lords, and IC's dont count towards that.

Ooops..checked the codex and it says Characters, not Independent Characters. My bad. Good thing I wasn't playing it like that then.

Still, having a scoring cryptek is fun.

BarBoBot wrote:It's nothing personal. You asked for criticism, and I gave my 2 cents.

...and I sincerely appreciate it. When I get time today I'll go through all the posts and reply more meaningfully.

Also, I wasn't trying to insinuate you were flaming me, I was trying to let you know I wasn't arguing with you (or flaming you), just exchanging ideas. I just hate when these "check out my list" posts become arguing over crap. I like productive conversation. Which we have had here. So, again thank you.

Edit** deleted double post

Gangrel767 wrote:They certainly do on paper, but when used in this list they have yet to let me down! Usually they're not targeted right away and therefor can get into some nice gooey positions.

They function in this list as additional AT, and also against weakened or MSU units. Without a lot of AT firepower I feel the entropic strike can exponentially help my entire army. I'd ditch them for another unit of Wraiths, but I want 2 units of scarabs. Damn You FOC!!! lol

Well, they are only I2 in CC, and Lychguard having a 4++ and a PW for only 5 pts is better, IMO. Entropic Strike is good in massed quantities. Most guys that fail the wound and lose the armor are already dead. It's really good against Tyranids and their High wound monstrous creatures. Remove their armor save and bring them down with scarabs! Scarabs are good because there are SO MANY ATTACKS! You are bound to do way more damage there because you get 28 attacks with 7 bases, or 35 with charging. Assuming a charge, half of those will hit if the vehicle only moved 6", so we'll round to 17.5 hits, and half of those will strip armor, so 8.5 Av lost, and 17 S3 hits against AV4 on a Rhino or AV6 on a Land Raider. 10 Praetorians will get 20 attacks without a charge, and 30 with, going the Void/caster route. Assuming they get the charge on a tank, 15 will go through, 7.5 will drop armor, so 15 S5 hits against AV5(Rhino), or 15 S5 hits against AV7(Land Raider). I guess it's just a question if you want to spend 400pts or 105pts for a unit that does AT, with the same threat range.

Markcron; yeah scoring cryptek definitely adds survivability to the troops.

Gangrel; no worries, I didnt think you were being argumentative or anything like that.

You should definitely look into making your troops more survivable and mobIle. If your opponents also go light on the troop choices, focus on them during your next objective mission and you'll see just how easy it is to take away their ability to claim objectives, making them play for a tie instead of a win.

BarBoBot wrote:You should definitely look into making your troops more survivable and mob

Stick them in a Ghost Ark for piratey, AV13 goodness!!! Seriously, ghost arks make tank stunning/harassing way more feasible. You get to broadside, hoping for rapid fire, and then all of the warriors and crypteks inside get to shoot.

Here's the thing, I have been using this as my standard troops assortment since I started them in November:

5 Warriors - PulseTek
Ghost Ark
5 Warriors - LanceTek (pulse if two OL)
Ghost Ark
10 Immortals - Veiltek

it comes to about 530 points before the crypteks so....680 with them. (more with extra pulse)... good, but boring.

Occasionally I'll try a couple 15 man warrior blobs with ghost ark support, but they seem to get swept in combat too quickly and easily. (I play orks and nids often) even with OL/Lord help. (I2 blows) - and they eat up more points

I just can't grasp the troops section of our codex. It seems to me that it to falls right into the same issue I have with my Eldar... underwhelming troops with overwhelming other stuff (except with the Necrons there is a lot more good stuff than the Eldar right now - next year my precious) - are they meant to be a way to just buy the scythes (a la DAVU Waveserpents)...?

I feel like I am wasting a lot of points for troops which never seem to do anything except claim objectives. This lead me to JY2's lists and a few others out there which feature "grot squads" or those 5 warrior units. They never seem to get attacked and they always seem to survive... but I have only personally tested them in 3 or 4 battles and only with this list and the dual lychguard list i posted yesterday. So no true litmus yet.

I was running AV 13 spam armies for a while, but that got boring. So, I wanted to try other things, but feel like I'm limited so much by the extra 230 pints for those arks... I mean that's almost a fully kitted wraith unit!

As far as all comments on the scarabs.... I have found that when I field 6 -8 of them in a unit I can hide them effectively granting them the stealth save, and also I have so many other threats that they don't seem to get targeted.

I use them as my swiss army knife. My last battle with this list I had 8 scarabs kill 3 attack bikes, which were laced with melta goodness. This saved my entire right flank from destruction. I lost two bases of scarabs and destroyed the attack bikes. It took like 3 or 4 combat turns (so 2 game turns), but it was PERFECT, because it allowed my right flank to be completely free. I did get a lucky 6 fleet roll, but hey it still counts)

So, I guess... the topic is shifting here, but what should I do in this situation? I mean why do the troops feel so lackluster? Or am I just being a ninny and I should just buck up and deal with it?

I personally like Immortals more than warriors because of their S5 weaponry. Immortals get the job done. When it comes to warriors, I put them in the ark so that they don't get into combat, because they suck hard. They're really good for flying up to an annoying vehicle and blowing up, especially with the Eldritch Lances. I know exactly what you mean though when it comes to troops.

Gangrel767 wrote:
Occasionally I'll try a couple 15 man warrior blobs with ghost ark support, but they seem to get swept in combat too quickly and easily. (I play orks and nids often) even with OL/Lord help. (I2 blows) - and they eat up more points.

Agree with this entirely. I've never been able to get these to work effectively - I found I had to have so much screening for the blobs it seemed like a waste.

Gangrel767 wrote:I just can't grasp the troops section of our codex. It seems to me that it to falls right into the same issue I have with my Eldar... underwhelming troops with overwhelming other stuff (except with the Necrons there is a lot more good stuff than the Eldar right now - next year my precious) - are they meant to be a way to just buy the scythes (a la DAVU Waveserpents)...?

I feel like I am wasting a lot of points for troops which never seem to do anything except claim objectives. This lead me to JY2's lists and a few others out there which feature "grot squads" or those 5 warrior units. They never seem to get attacked and they always seem to survive... but I have only personally tested them in 3 or 4 battles and only with this list and the dual lychguard list i posted yesterday. So no true litmus yet.

Agree, I migrated to smaller but cryptek buffed troops as well. Works well providing that the opponent doesn't target them first up. Generally, I've found that its fairly unlikely the opponent can target them straight up, but that is the point of a MTO style list.

Gangrel767 wrote:So, I guess... the topic is shifting here, but what should I do in this situation? I mean why do the troops feel so lackluster? Or am I just being a ninny and I should just buck up and deal with it?

I think the warriors are lacklustre. Immortals I can sort of use, but even here small squads of immortals don't seem to do much more than the small squads of warriors, so i come back to wanting to spend the points on other stuff.