Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Let's be polite to those users who are going through the series a little slower; thanks. --Janthkin

Changed my opinion, . See bottom post.

The serie wanted (or seemed to want) to gradually escalate the appearance of fantastic elements. Being the gal with the drakes, she was one of the first and most obvious elements of fantasy to be introduced. I think it's okay to have 'held back' the impact she could've had on the serie, since she was still only an adolescent when she got her dragons. It would've been baaaaaaaad if A storm of Swords had started with Dragons Paladins and mages trying to usurp gods....

By the way, it's pretty common for authors to precipitate the final events of a serie. Kinda throws off the rythm.

It's a colossal mind feth, she's gonna die and never even see Westeros.

A Storm of Swords I could understand. But having three books after that with no moving toward the characters raison de entre is pretty bad. Also, Dragons might be an obvious fantastical element. But, Dragons are accepted as having existed in the mythos (unlike fire mages bringing people back from the dead and Others ) and as small creatures wouldn't have made such an impact. In fact if they don't get as big as Aegons dragons then they'd probably be mainly psychological and I doubt Danny would even live long enough for them to get even a quarter of that size. (Aegons Dragon Baelerion was so huge an elephant could walk down its throat ). I also just don't care for the East, its just the background for Danny and co. Its like saying we care about the fate of Bravos (aka Venice) when Arya goes there; but really we don't care about Bravos; we care about Arya. Danny was only in the East to get an army to Westeros, not start an anti-slavery crusade that can only be resolved by conquering all of the East and the Dothraki. Plus, I preferred the idea of Danny landing like some Jacobite Pretender (lot of references to them by the way in the books) not like Alexander crossing the Indus.

Plus, its that line of thinking that worries me. I really was looking forward to Danny going to Westeros and becoming involved in the Game of Thrones; as well as altering its dynamic. But I feel as though this is going to slide into just being about her conveying the Dragons to fight the Others. Which when you've spent virtually all of the series having her character built up is a real let down if it just becomes purely about fantasy elements.

Well were only up to book five atm. ..a dance with dragons

CURNOW wrote:Well were only up to book five atm. ..a dance with dragons

Book six has her with the Dothraki again for some reason and DwD didn't exactly end with her fleet sailing to Westeros. Who are slavers and must be brought to heel somehow; not to mention if they try to capture her. She has Mereen beset by New Ghis, Qarth and Yunkai who are also slavers and must be brought to heel. That is going to take up all book six for her plot. Again, really, the woman apparently has to conquer all of the East in order to get to Westeros. thats assuming they don't decide to tie Danny into the mystical element and add in the Warlocks of Qarth trying to ruin her day.

So, shes not going anywhere until book seven; which is planned to be the final one.

Plus, simply from a power perspective. If she has three dragons, roughly Skyrim size, the Dothraki, several companies of sell-swords, her Unsullied and who knows what else then I can't imagine any of the houses who would try to fight her at that point. But then it just calls into question why bother building the character since anyone could conquer Westeros at that point. Meeting the others would be a big challenge but I would have really prefered her getting involved in the Game of Thrones. I really wouldn't like it if she essentially did an Aegon and everyone just surrenders as soon as they see the Dragons.

Nah she meets tyrion and they marry and live happly ever after lol

I've got a feeling that she mite decide that she dosnt realy want the iron throne. .

Or arya turns up and backstabs her lol

CURNOW wrote:
Or arya turns up and backstabs her lol

...


Theres a limit as to what an author can do. If they killed Danny on reaching Westeros then it would be a great shock. But it would be like Mass Effect 3 ending shock and wouldn't end up good. You could say its realistic, but it wouldn't be good; not good at all.

Thank you, thank you so much for spoiling a major plot line in the title of your thread for all to see. You wonderful, bumbling, dim-witted donkey-cave.



I really hope you feel bad, because you should.





GODDAMNIT

rubiksnoob wrote:Thank you, thank you so much for spoiling a major plot line in the title of your thread for all to see. You wonderful, bumbling, dim-witted donkey-cave.

T

What plotline? Danny ain't going anywhere, what part of the books could have ever given you the impression she was going anywhere? the only point is when Drogon tells her he is going to take her and then in the subsequent chapter dies. I didn't say why she was still there. Whether she went in book 2 or 7 the details and circumstances are the only spoilers worth knowing. So what exactly have I spoiled? You get to know Danny stays in the East for a while. So what? Thats like saying Darth vader is still alive by Return of the Jedi, its a vacuous plot point and if its writton ON THE BACK OF THE BOOKS then I hardly think such a thing can be considered a spoiler.

Totalwar1402 wrote:

rubiksnoob wrote:Thank you, thank you so much for spoiling a major plot line in the title of your thread for all to see. You wonderful, bumbling, dim-witted donkey-cave.

T

What plotline? Danny ain't going anywhere, what part of the books could have ever given you the impression she was going anywhere? the only point is when Drogon tells her he is going to take her and then in the subsequent chapter dies. I didn't say why she was still their. Whether she went in book 2 or seven the details and circumstances are the only spoilers worth knowing. So what exactly have I spoiled? You get to know Danny stays in the East for a while. So what?

Plus, if anything its a very minor plotline Danny returning to Westeros if it hasn't been dealt with in six out of seven books.

Go die in a hole.

edit:

You do realise nobody is going to bother with a generic thread?

And you do realize that other's have a right to learn the story from the books? Anyway, it isn't as if your question mattered incredibly : you disagree with the story development of the character Daenerys... What can be answered to that statement? That the author wanted to tell a different tale then the one you were expecting? Oki...

Kovnik Obama wrote:And you do realize that other's have a right to learn the story from the books? Anyway, it isn't as if your question mattered incredibly : you disagree with the story development of the character Daenerys... What can be answered to that statement? That the author wanted to tell a different tale then the one you were expecting? Oki...

I state an opinion. You agree or you disagree or you come half-way; thats not a difficult thing to understand.

As far as I'am concerned that isn't a major plot point in the slightest. There are far bigger spoilers I could have written. If I had said what the Red Wedding was, in a title, then such a reaction would have been proportionate but I don't get why I'am somehow in the wrong.


Well, yes. You could perfectly reasonably argue that Daenerys was always meant to be Mother of Dragons and to be crucial in defeating the others; possibly as Azzor-Hai reborn. Her being sterile could point towards the futility of the character restoring House Targarian and immediately lower the importance of her being in the Game of Thrones. But my impression has always been that her being the Queen in exile and working toward going to Westeros, making alliances and eventually taking the Iron Throne was going to be a main part of the character. Still, you could argue that my impression is wrong and that the Iron Throne is only a peripheral part of what Danny is doing. Perhaps the tale in the East has some element to it that I'am unaware of and which makes it more important than just Dannys backdrop etc etc.

It matters because if you spend six books developing a character then the pay-off for that character has to be pretty good. If she just brings down all of the East and Dragons as big as Aegons then; well, so what, anybody could do that. Moon boy could take three dragons and conquer Westeros. She might as well have just stayed in a mountain waiting for her dragons to get big and then flown them to Westeros. I'am saying her plot is filler, which is a legitimate criticism to make and I don't really get why he did it. If you compare it to Jon Snows questline then you know that it will have a major impact and directly affect the others at some point ie The Wildlings and Others come in. Stannis enters the tale. But, it really is not important what happens to the East. If Danny left a wasteland or an Empire it really won't matter past how many soldiers she brings with her and possibly how much of a reputation.

I can't really say anything else to that that all plots are filler in an historical epic... All the character's history are nothing more than an excuse to advance the History. We all know we will not have the entire story, we already start 'in the middle' of the events. Further, the fact that some characters sets to accomplish a lot, and then have nothing in the end to claim, is a distinct possibility, it's even a tool to make one ponder the futility of the Game.

Anyway, it's like the 'what's Ygritte's point?' questions... there was no point, there was a need to fill the story, and she made do...

Kovnik Obama wrote:I can't really say anything else to that that all plots are filler in an historical epic... All the character's history are nothing more than an excuse to advance the History. We all know we will not have the entire story, we already start 'in the middle' of the events. Further, the fact that some characters sets to accomplish a lot, and then have nothing in the end to claim, is a distinct possibility, it's even a tool to make one ponder the futility of the Game.

Anyway, it's like the 'what's Ygritte's point?' questions... there was no point, there was a need to fill the story, and she made do...

I like to believe that Danny isn't going to end up stabbed in the back when she gets to Westeros. Whilst it is realistic and I actually know one Diadochi General (Seleucius 1st?) where that happened to him by one of his leutenants. There simply is a limit, you never spend a whole series building a character just to have them die an ignomonious death. It simply isn't done. A sacrificial death at the climax of the series vs the Other; maybe. But not a humiliating death.

When I say its filler, you misunderstand me. Ygritte mattered because of Jon Snows personality and as something for him to 'do'. But Jon Snows main plot is that he is trying to beocme a man of the nights watch. I'am refering to plot not character development is what I think I'am trying to say. Danny in the East is fine as character development; shes learning how to be a ruler. But at some point, preferably not on the last book you have to move the characters situation forward and not just throw obstacles in their way before it just seems like stalling. Imagine if Jon Snow really wanted to go to the wall and insistently told everyone about it but was only able to do so in the final book? This is what happens with Daenerys. We know the character wants to go to Westeros. She tells everyone she wants to go to Westeros. I as the reader want to see her go to Westeros. Her enemies in the East certainly want to see her go to Westeros. But GRR Martin does not want her to go to Westeros. Which if I believe the wiki was a conscious decision on his part. Origionally he intended to jump the timeline forward five years (I think after Storm of Swords) and for that book to deal with Danny returning to Westeros. However he decided part way through that too much would have happened in those years. So he made Feast of Crows and Dance with Dragons. Which are at best set-up and at worst simply filler. The only thing of note which happens plot wise is that Stannis gets really busy in the North.


Put more simply, I don't care for the situational plot Danny finds herself in past Dannys own welfare. The east just isn't important and frankly isn't to my tastes. Way too oriental, I would have preferred if they had been more like Muslims or Turks from the Middle Ages rather than Assyrians and Carthaginians. Plus, its very difficult to relate to most of the Eastern people. The Dothraki act like drones who say 'it is known', the Unsullied are also drones and the sell-swords are just a load of strutting peacocks. You might sympathise with the brutality meeted out on the slaves as a group. But as individuals we don't really know and aren't given much reason to care. The most interesting characters, as well as the ones she has the greatest relationship with are Ser Jorah and Barristan Selmy; who aren't from the East at all. So really, I don't get why thise set-up to her getting to Westeros needed to take up six books. Surely she could do character development stuff in Dorne; you know where things she does actually matter? Also, doing something like Danny going to Westeros, isn't a thing simply done and is more like another chapter (at least how I envisaged it) rather than THE END . Which isn't the way I felt the story should go because rather than have to deal with interesting issues like people hating Targarians, mistrusting an Eastern army, wondering Danny is mad, trying to weave through the web of vengence built up since Roberts Rebellion and how Danny fits into the Game once its set up. Those to me were very interesting things and a simple Dues Ex Machina entry to wrap things up quickly like Aegon before going on to face the Others is bad IMO.

Totalwar1402 wrote:

CURNOW wrote:Well were only up to book five atm. ..a dance with dragons

Book six has her with the Dothraki again for some reason and DwD didn't exactly end with her fleet sailing to Westeros. Who are slavers and must be brought to heel somehow; not to mention if they try to capture her. She has Mereen beset by New Ghis, Qarth and Yunkai who are also slavers and must be brought to heel. That is going to take up all book six for her plot. Again, really, the woman apparently has to conquer all of the East in order to get to Westeros. thats assuming they don't decide to tie Danny into the mystical element and add in the Warlocks of Qarth trying to ruin her day.

So, shes not going anywhere until book seven; which is planned to be the final one.

Plus, simply from a power perspective. If she has three dragons, roughly Skyrim size, the Dothraki, several companies of sell-swords, her Unsullied and who knows what else then I can't imagine any of the houses who would try to fight her at that point. But then it just calls into question why bother building the character since anyone could conquer Westeros at that point. Meeting the others would be a big challenge but I would have really prefered her getting involved in the Game of Thrones. I really wouldn't like it if she essentially did an Aegon and everyone just surrenders as soon as they see the Dragons.

I imagine she will get to use her dragons to fight all the nastiness coming in from beyond the wall.

deathholydeath wrote:[
I imagine she will get to use her dragons to fight all the nastiness coming in from beyond the wall.

Which would be anti-climactic and is what I'am complaining about. I don't begrudge the final book being about that. What I begrudge is that in all likelihood the plot goal which has been built up for a long time, her entering Westeros and the Game of Thrones is going to get ignored. Dannys plot hasn't even been connected with the Others or Rhollor; unlike Stannis. I would have prefered book six to involve her returning to Westeros. Then a final book dealing with the Others and everyone elses resolutions. I mean why build up a character to be a ruler and struggle with the foibles of rule; grow as a character for six books if all they're going to do is point their dragons at the Others? I would have preferred more politcal n intrigue stuff involvoing her return. Plus Dance of Dragons actually involved her meeting or possibly going to meet a lot of them; the Martells, Victarion, Tyrion at some point. That stuff would have been good. But having a brief entry makes all that development quite mute and not really relevent. Plus, you then have a random Targarian pop up out of nowhere and steal her thunder. Look if the series was ten books long then I could get GRR Martin taking his time with Danny in the East but having one book wrap up her taking the Iron Throne AND dealing with the Others is a mistake.

The characters goal is to take the Iron Throne. At some point that has to involve her going to Westeros to work towards that goal; which should not just be a cakewalk. I understand that her getting involved in the East was a mistake the character made. It was too difficult and expressed her nievity; she didn't expect every city to attack her for trying to end slavery. Ser Jorah told her as much. Her marriage to that eastern guy meant she wasn't able to marry the Martell prince and really ended up hurting her cause. But thats all just a set-up to keep Danny in the East and it essentially just freezes the plotline to allow Aegon and the rest of the pieces in Westeros to get their spot in the limelight. In fact, the sheer irrelevence of what she does in Mereen is made even more clear by the fact that she is teleported away from there at the end of A Dance with Dragons to go do something completely different with the Dothraki. Again, if there were more books than seven I wouldn't mind so much. But having her return to Westeros as an after thought following so much effort is disappointing.

deathholydeath wrote:

I imagine she will get to use her dragons to fight all the nastiness coming in from beyond the wall.

I wouldn't be suprised if she, and her dragons, never makes it to Westeros. She has enough to be getting on with and there are complications that will make Westeros a more difficult prospect than it originally seemed. I do think that characters and plot lines have been spread unnecessarily wide though, having everything concluded (or at least explained) will require some handwavium. Arya's plot line in particular already seems rushed.

Palindrome wrote:

deathholydeath wrote:

I imagine she will get to use her dragons to fight all the nastiness coming in from beyond the wall.

I wouldn't be suprised if she, and her dragons, never makes it to Westeros. She has enough to be getting on with and there are complications that will make Westeros a more difficult prospect than it originally seemed. I do think that characters and plot lines have been spread unnecessarily wide though, having everything concluded (or at least explained) will require some handwavium. Arya's plot line in particular already seems rushed.

I don't know. its perfectly justifed to rush things or montage them when neccesary. For example, two books to explain Arya's training as an assasian is pretty wasteful.

Unless the Others and Winter pass into the East atop a wave of glacial ice that sweeps the Dothraki sea, there is no way Danny is staying in the East. Even I'am not that cynical. The book is called a Song of Ice and Fire. The Others primary weakness is fire. To say that isn't hinting that the Dragons aren't a big part of the forces of fire is an understatement.

To my mind there was no reason to write Feast of Crows and Dance with Dragons. You could have easily condensed that tale into one book . Plus why is that much set-up even needed? Why spend two books adding loads of new characters who aren't going to be relevent later on? Is it really impossible to have Prince Martell walk into Danny court without having a massive sub-story telling us about all the Sand Snakes and an irrelevent plot where a man of the Kings Guard tries to free Myrcella. Is it really impossible to say, the Iron islanders are having a succesion crisis without going in-depth about a very minor faction and all the various contenders.

How exactly is westeros getting more difficult for Danny? The longer the series goes on the more their armies destroy and ruin eachother. Whole warhosts have been lost, vast chunks of the continent have been laid to waste and some are becoming splintered by infighting (Starks, Riverlands and Greyjoys). In contrast, Danny's dragons are getting bigger, her army is going to get larger and is going to be terrifyingly huge if she beats all the East and gets the Dothraki on side. Its much more the case that its getting easier to take Westeros even without any help from within it. She wouldn't need Martell or Victarion at that point. At that point it simply becomes like Yes Man off FalloutNew Vegas and his securitrons. Her armies are all she really needs, "its really a matter of who you like and who you really don't." The only complications are of the characters own making because she has taken pity on the slaves of the East and must save them orelse they will be slaughtered. However, she didn't appreciate that in order to change an entire society she would have to conquer all of the East and force the Dothraki to submit. Which is arguably more difficult than retaking Westeros.

Totalwar1402 wrote:
I don't know. its perfectly justifed to rush things or montage them when neccesary. For example, two books to explain Arya's training as an assasian is pretty wasteful. .

In the current book she is still a child, at most a young teenager. There simply hasn't been enough time to fully flesh out her training and make it believeable, assuming that she actually finishes of course.

If you don't know why things have become much more difficult for Danyaeris to sit on the Iron Throne then I'm not going to tell you. You will find the answer towards the end of book 4 (I think). There are also a lot of practical considerations due to events in book 5.

Palindrome wrote:

Totalwar1402 wrote:
I don't know. its perfectly justifed to rush things or montage them when neccesary. For example, two books to explain Arya's training as an assasian is pretty wasteful. .

In the current book she is still a child, at most a young teenager. There simply hasn't been enough time to fully flesh out her training and make it believeable.

If you don't know why things have become much more difficult for Danyaeris to sit on the Iron Throne then I'm not going to tell you. You will find the answer towards the end of book 4 (I think). There are also a lot of practical considerations due to events in book 5.

I'am not sure what complications you're thinking of. If anything Aegon appearing is a spur to her moving toward Westeros not the other way around. To my knowledge Aegon is not against her in any way and intends to marry her. Plus, I'am not quesioning the legitimate reasons she has to stay in the East; that is how GRR Martin has set up the story. What irks me is that resolving them is going to take so long that Danny going to Westeros is going to be very brief as a consequence and its irksome because its blatently filler; something for the character to do until she can be put into the main plot at the series conclusion. Also, I've already read the wiki so i really don't mind you telling me stuff.


I've read Wars of Light and Shadow. Another long running series and that had the plot jump forward two hundred years and the personality of one of the main characters completely altered (amnesia) whilst the other showed a different side of his personality and his situation was massively changed. Skipping forward is okay, but even still, two books? A Feast for Crows and Winter is Coming is more than enough by any estimate. The only limitation is time. GRR Martin can't skip time forward for some characters if others have their own plot. Since he started most of the characters out very young this has became a real problem with the story. Another book where this was done very well was Magician by Raymond E Feist. There you saw two boys go to adulthood during this war. One trained to become a master mage and the other became a great warrior (among other things). That was just one book and I didn't have an issue with time jumps or training montages. Plus those shifts are pretty extreme in terms of power-level. Both of them arguably become demi-gods by the end of it.

Went to gaming today n had a discussion bout A Song of ice n Fire. Kinda put things into perspective, so it doesn't bug me so much about Danny not being in the West yet. If the final two book are split like Storm of Crows that seems fair enough. Plus, I'am getting into Feast for Crows and its good how they're slowly introducing a growing awareness of Danny. I really liked the Greyjoy story and I really don't know where things are going with that plot; real exciting. Also, I said Aegon stole Dannys thunder. In hindsight thats probably not fair since she is kinda conquering half the world before crossing the sea to conquer the other half. Pretty difficult to steal a characters thunder if thats what they're doing. Theres also other parrallel plots like the Bravoosi (Venice) with the huge ship buildings arsenal being annoyed of having their debts annulled; whilst Danny is practically swimming in the stuff. In other words GRR Martin is slowly bringing the two stories into increasing contact and awareness of eachother. Its like the Mass Effect 2 of the book series, setting up an elaborate set of plots and characters to be used in the final two books like a fireworks display.