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Hi Dakka,

I've recently taken a fascination into biker lists, and have run Khan in many (probably around 10) test games on Vassal.

The main reason i have taken him over a regular bike Captain is because he allows my whole army to outflank, that and i'm playing at 1750, so i have the points.

As it stands, i do not run him with a Command Squad. Too pricey and they usually get shot down in fear. I dont put him in any of the 6 bike squads i have, as i value each bike squad and if 1 squad was getting shot to pieces just to kill him i'd be down on 1/6th of my bikers.

When ever i do manage to get into combat with him, i find he is too weak to do anything. S4, power weapon and 4 attacks on the charge, thats 3+, 4+ on MEQ.

The question i pose to you, dakka, is:
How should i be running Khan?

Cheers.

Just for reference, this is my list:
Khan w/ Moondrakkan
Bike squad w/ +5 men, Power fist, attack bike: Multimelta, 2 PGs - 320 (combat squad into: Power fist sargent, attack bike and 2 guys | 2 PGs, 3 bikers)
Bike squad w/ +5 men, Power fist, attack bike: Multimelta, 2 PGs - 320 (combat squad into: Power fist sargent, attack bike and 2 guys | 2 PGs, 3 bikers)
Bike squad w/ +5 men, Power fist, attack bike: Multimelta, 2 PGs - 320 (combat squad into: Power fist sargent, attack bike and 2 guys | 2 PGs, 3 bikers)
Rifleman dread
Rifleman dread
Auto/las pred
auto/las pred
auto/Hbolter pred

I think you're forgetting that he gives furious charge to the squad he joins (which makes him S5 on the first round of assault) I've proxied him on foot before with a squad of assault Termies in a Land Raider Crusader, it helps him survive much longer and creates a nasty death-star squad. It does suck-up a lot of points though, so at 1750 pts I'm not sure it would be worth it.

His only other ability gives hit and run, which is kind've a waste to not have with a unit. It seems weird that you don't want to lose bikes but would be willing to lose him. If so just let him go along up front, taking as many shots as possible.

I'd think he'd be a good character hunter, even though his instant death ability isn't reliable.

Maybe you could keep him mostly out of sight as much as possible and keep moving him that way, trick the enemy into worrying about him even though he's really not going to do anything. Special characters who can move that fast have a psychological effect on people.

First off, if you're running Khan and White Scars the fluff says no dreadnoughts (even despite the blasphemy in the latest issue of White Dwarf).

Second, I am not completely sold on the value of outflanking versus the loss of combat tactics. I started playing White Scars a few months ago and Khan was my initial plan as well. However, I have found out that I prefer the ability to fall back out of assault range from shooting casualties to be a better ability.

Now, if I was going to run Khan, I think I would want to do it at the 2,000 point range where I can outflank a LRR filled with Assault Terminator goodness. Bikes can turbo boost 24", meaning they can be anywhere on the board very quickly. The need to outflank them is not as helpful as it would be with other, slower units. I am not saying it is not useful, but it has a greater impact on tactical squads and assault marines than it does bikes.

Third, one of the greatest strengths of a bike squad is its ability to move quickly and rapidly, thereby determining when and where the fight is going to take place. Adding dreadnoughts and predators takes some of that away from you. When your entire army is highly mobile (e.g. bikes, speeders, and the new stormtalon), you can negate portions of your opponents army by turbo boosting / flat out-ing / supersonic-ing (???) away. This gives you the ability to outnumber your opponent locally on the battlefield (as you are most likely outnumbered on the table top). Running dreadnoughts and predators removes that ability. I am not saying this will not work, but it is something to be aware of. If I was your opponent, I would focus everything I had onto your dreads and preds first. This would then force you to commit your bikes to assist in this fight. This effectively makes your walkers and Heavy support an anchor.

Something to consider is to changing the loadouts of your dreadnoughts (assuming you a. don't care about fluff and b. they are allowed to outflank - no brb with me atm). If dreads can outflank, give them multi-meltas or assault cannons and DCCWs. Having these bad boys in their backfield will give your opponent something to worry about.

If you are sold on your predators, then keep them. Otherwise, I would give serious consideration to either stormtalons (just got one Friday, have not playtested yet) or typhoon landspeeders. Speeders, while fragile, move quickly and can keep up with your bikes while unloading lots of long range missile shots. That is your call there based on how you want your army to look and feel.

Lastly, your bike squads are really good. I am in the process of switching my Melta guns over to Plasma now. MGs have a range of 12". This means I am in assault range, and that is a place I do not want to be. I have found that my MG bikers end up using their bolters for most of the game. So, why not give them plasma instead? Yes, gets hot! stinks, but it is manageable. If you have points available, add in an extra bike per squad to soak up some wounds. The powerfists are absolutely essential to your sargeants. First off, you only have a bolt pistol to swap out. So if you take a power weapon, you only get 2 attacks base (+1 on the charge). And, when your bikes do get tangled into an assault, those powerfists really help level things out.

If you have the models, I would actually ditch the preds altogether for another bike squad, kitted out the same as your others. I would also think about going with 3 vindicators over preds as well. Vindicators are fire magnets. Three of them are going to make any opponent nervous. You have three of thos lined up like this to start the game: \ | / (or in a corner so no side shots are available) and your opponent is going to focus fire completely on them. This means your bikes are being ignored for a turn or so. Just more food for thought. Proxy your preds for vindicators and see what works out better for you and your playstyle.

If you can find the points, a bare-boned librarian (or epistolary) on a bike helps out with killing terminators. Null Zone + plasma / multi-melta fire = dead termies. Just keep him hidden in a squad as he has no invul.

As for Khan, I would put him in with a bike squad. If this is going to be a CC oriented squad, give them Melta Guns instead of plasma. I have toyed with the idea of adding a techmarine on a bike (with a thunderhammer) to give this unit some more wrecking power. But, I have yet to playtest this. It seems like a lot of points to be throwing about. But 3 S9 attacks on the charge plus the servo arm seems like it could be useful. You may also want to beef this squad up with 2 or 3 bikes as well.

Hope this helps.

Thanks all for the advise!

@Pheonix. Yes, found after i posted this that he does have Furious charge, and gives it to his whole squad. Awesome

@Erikwfg. I tested a game with Khan is a combat squad with 2 plasma guys. I turbo-boosted onto the board behind a devastator squad with 4 Missile launchers. I would have wrecked face if the game continued to turn 4 (he had to go). Especially with the furious charge rule, i would have finished him off.

@Green is Best. Wow, that alot to think about...
Firstly, while i can understand the concern about the fluff and the dreadnought, i simply dont care (A bit arrogont, but so what )

Your point about outflanking is noted, but i find it works so well. I place 3 preds and 2 dreads on the table and outflank 30 bikers. Thats a hell of a thing for the enemy to plan for.

You're are 100% right about the bikes best ability. my 3 preds took out a storm raven full of termies and sang. priests. My bikes kited the termies, moving further than they could charge each turn. eventually killed a few before the game ended. And it kept them occupied while i kick butt on the other side of the table.

The dreadnough loadout is too good to change. Previously, when i was just starting out with White scars, i run 100% bikes. after alot of games i found this to not work. So i started running armoured support, still 100% outflank. It still wasn't working. Then, i started deploying my armour and keeping my bikes for reserve. And whola, bingo! it worked. 2 TLAC dreads reliably take out transport and stun/shake lock av12 vehicles. Something, as an all bike list, i need.

I know what you're saying about the PGs over MGs. You have to get too close with MGs, your not going to survive the combat.

No, i cant remove the Preds for more bikes. Not only will i have no room for the bikes when they all come on (happened once, every single reserve on turn 2!), i will lose the valuable fire support which forms the base of my army. On turn 1, the enemy only has my fire support to take out. They have to start to cross the board to get to my tanks which are hugging the back line. Then, all of a sudden, they have to consider the bikes that are outflanking. Do they continue to get my firesupport or go for the bikes which will cause havoc? They go for the bikes, i take them out with fire support, the for the support, i use the bikes to win.

I'd love to fit a librarian into the list, but just cant

Wow. I misread your list.

I thought you were running 5 man bike squads. You are running 9 man squads I see. Obviously, that does not agree with what I wrote earlier about adding more guys to those squads. If you dropped 4 bikes from each squad, that is another 300 points. That still leaves you with 6 marines per squad and enough points for another fully kitted out squad. So, you lose volume of bikers, but pick up more plasma and a multi-melta. (And its not 30 bikers, its 27). Again, your call.

As with the rest of the eternal rock,paper, scissors, (lizard, spock) that is 40k, this army still looks formiddable. But, I wonder how it would fare against a fast army like DE who count on the alpha strike. They would zoom out and destroy some or all of your heavy support and then wait for your bikes to come in.

Also, for the record, I am pretty sure you cannot combat squad and come in from reserve. The only exception I am aware of is for drop pods.

Your observation of the combat squad rule and reserve rule is confusing. Going to seek clarification on that.

I have tried running Khan in a LRC with 4 TH/SS, 3 LC and Cassius. The LRC is escorted by a Stormtalon.

Then depends on the game, I will have another outflanking squad escorted by another Stormtalon. This works well as long as my reserve roll is not messed up since I only have 1-2 things in reserve.

Im familiar with the LR and termies outflanking tactic, but i dont think it goes with how im trying to play them.

Green is Best! wrote:
Also, for the record, I am pretty sure you cannot combat squad and come in from reserve. The only exception I am aware of is for drop pods.

Zambro wrote:Your observation of the combat squad rule and reserve rule is confusing. Going to seek clarification on that.

Decision to split is made during deployment of the unit. Furthermore, from FAQ:

Q: When a unit of 10 Space Marines with the Combat
Squad special rule arrives from reserve as two combat
squads, can they move on from, or Deep Strike onto,
two different locations? (p51)
A: Yes.

Khan is really good with assault termies in a landraider.
Whereas bikes are great when they have combat tactics.

Cydrone, your amazing!

Thanks for finding that

This is conflicint information. The updated FAQ says you may combat squad when arriving from deep strike now (in addition to drop pods). However, two paragraphs later in the FAQ it states:

Q: Can you take a drop pod witha a 10-man squad and then put a combat squad into it, deploying the other combat squad on the table, or leave it in reserve but not in the drop pod?
A: No, because squads that are placed in reserve may not break down into combat squads.

Shocking, inconsistent and ambiguous rules from GW. Who saw that coming?

Green is Best! wrote:This is conflicint information. The updated FAQ says you may combat squad when arriving from deep strike now (in addition to drop pods). However, two paragraphs later in the FAQ it states:

Q: Can you take a drop pod witha a 10-man squad and then put a combat squad into it, deploying the other combat squad on the table, or leave it in reserve but not in the drop pod?
A: No, because squads that are placed in reserve may not break down into combat squads.

Shocking, inconsistent and ambiguous rules from GW. Who saw that coming?

It means that squads arriving from deep strike may break down into combat squads once they're coming on the board.

But squads cannot break down into combat squads while in reserve, with only half taking the drop pod.

Correct.

Models coming in from reserve may combat squad the moment they are deployed.

I have been an avid opponent of Khan in biker lists for a long time, but I'm slowly warming up to him. Biker lists have more and more poor match-ups, where staying in reserve and having the option of outflanking would actually help a lot. GK's being a prime example. In addition, outflanking assault termies with furious charge and extended charge range (slingshot them in with Khan) looks good.

I'm personally leaning towards something like:
Khan, moondrakkan
10 Assault Termies, 6 th/ss
4 Bikes, MMAB, 2 plasma, fist
4 Bikes, MMAB, 2 plasma, fist
4 Bikes, MMAB, 2 plasma, fist
4 Bikes, MMAB, 2 flamer, c-flamer
2 MMAB
2 MMAB
2 MMAB
1750pts

Yes. It is not that I am opposed to Khan. It is just that for the same number of points, you can get a very killy SM Captain and retain Combat Tactics. Typical load out is relic blade, artificer armor, and storm shield. So, you now have a SS Terminator captain on wheels for the most part. I don't think you can go wrong either way. You just need to tailor your tactics to whichever captain you are running.

As for the list above, how your termies are arriving on foot? Not much of a threat range.

I have yet to run the attack bike squadrons for my FA. So, not sure how they would do. Currently I am a huge fan of TML speeders (and possibly one storm talon depending on how it playtests). But, I have considered running some.

Also, my Raven Guard may have to lend my White Scars a dreadnought or two if I run Khan. I cannot bring myself to paint one white. I like the idea of outflanking dreads with assault cannons and DCCWS ruining someone's day.

I love Khan with a kitted Command Squad. Outflanking with Furious Charge and Hit and Run they can really do some damage even if it does cost a fair few points. And don't forget Khans chance to inflict Instant Death

In my opinion your Biker Squads are over sized where you could have more squads of less or make room for a Command Squad. I like your use of Preds and Dreads.

Peace Out!
Jonny!

RubberJonny wrote:
In my opinion your Biker Squads are over sized where you could have more squads of less or make room for a Command Squad. I like your use of Preds and Dreads.

They are not oversized. I combat squad them into 2. 1 with 2 plasmaguns and 1 with sargent and MM. Total of 6 squads, all of which are scoring.

I like my use of preds and dreads too
A good, solid amount of fire support. I often outflank the Heavy Bolter Pred, just to chew up infantry

* Green is best hit on a lot of points that I agree with. The only difference is that I like 6 or 7 man squads so they can absorb a little more fire before they start losing special weapons.

* Screw the fluff. The codex choices are there to let you play the army you want. I have a ultramarine army that I use space wolf rules for -- because I like TAC squads that are bad ass, and the SW codex lets me do what I think the Ultramarines TAC squads should do.

* Having 1 or 2 dreads coming in from normal reserves is not a bad idea. (You can't outflank them). If your outflanking a lot of your army, if your 2 dreads come in from the normal side you increase the threat your generating from 2 or 3 table edges. As long as your going to mess with him, you might as go all out.

* I don't suggest combat squadding. In your combat squad, the MM bike has 3 bullet catchers that do nothing. Your never going to be shooting the MM at anything else other than a tank, and so your 75 pts has a low return. The other problem is LD 8 with a LD check required with 1 causality is pretty rough. Falling back 3d6" means your losing a turn to re-position at best, or at worst you run off the board.

* I would take a look at the storm talon. What this vehicles does is let you 'clump' your reserves. This helps lower the chances of you getting just 1 unit on the board. At least you will get 2. Another option (best at 2k and over) is Tigerious. He lets you get 75% of your reseves in on turn 2, which is pretty damn good. (Or you can hold and only get 25% turn 2, then 89% turn 3)

* Bike lists are not top tier lists. While they will crush many lists. Other lists will stop you cold, like 18 wraiths, or draigowing. As such, you can't expect to win tourneys with it on a regular basis. However, you can have a lot of fun, which is really what the game is about, right?

Hell yeah, labmouse! +1 to fun!
lol

Cant outflank dreadnoughts? Khan lets your whole army do it

Khan lets you outflank any unit with combat tactics, by trading out combat tactics for the ability to outflank.

Dreads do not have combat tactics.

labmouse42 wrote: * Screw the fluff. The codex choices are there to let you play the army you want. I have a ultramarine army that I use space wolf rules for -- because I like TAC squads that are bad ass, and the SW codex lets me do what I think the Ultramarines TAC squads should do.

BURN THE HERETIC WITH FIRE!!!

The fluff is sacrosanct.

OK. Not really. But it sounded good.

ahh, thanks for that labmouse. didn't realise :p

Zambro wrote:

RubberJonny wrote:
In my opinion your Biker Squads are over sized where you could have more squads of less or make room for a Command Squad. I like your use of Preds and Dreads.

They are not oversized. I combat squad them into 2. 1 with 2 plasmaguns and 1 with sargent and MM. Total of 6 squads, all of which are scoring.

labmouse42 wrote:* I don't suggest combat squadding. In your combat squad, the MM bike has 3 bullet catchers that do nothing. Your never going to be shooting the MM at anything else other than a tank, and so your 75 pts has a low return. The other problem is LD 8 with a LD check required with 1 causality is pretty rough. Falling back 3d6" means your losing a turn to re-position at best, or at worst you run off the board.

I was entirely unclear on what i meant and for that i apologise. Labmouse worded my concern more accurately.

Peace Out!
Jonny!

Green is Best! wrote:BURN THE HERETIC WITH FIRE!!!

The fluff is sacrosanct.

OK. Not really. But it sounded good.

LOL

Whats funny though is I really have been enjoying playing that SW army lately. At 1500 points I bring 61 models to the table with no vehicles/tanks, and its works surprisingly well.

Well, I played a Kan wall the other night and decided to use Khan. I deviated from the norm and brought in my LRR and termies. Since it was orks, I decided to start with LRR on the board as the only thing that could hurt it was the kans and dreads.

Long story short, I REALLY needed my combat tactics more than outflanking. I started to auto fallback and realized what I had done. My poor White Scars failed to win the day against greenskins....

Green is Best! wrote:I decided to start with LRR on the board as the only thing that could hurt it was the kans and dreads.

Err... if this is the case, then that is your problem, not the loss of combat tactics. There should be a lot in your bike army that will absolutely demolish kanz.

Green is Best! wrote:As for the list above, how your termies are arriving on foot? Not much of a threat range.

Termies on foot are great in bike lists IMO. Able to give the entire army coversaves in the first turn, then they can run up towards objectives, keeping your bikers much safer from assault than normal. If the enemy does not focus on them, they will wreak havoc later in the game and will push the enemy off objectives. They can also be slingshotted into combat by biker IC's. With Khan, they gain a lot of extra milage. 10 assault termies coming in from a flank, able to combat squad to engage more targets if needed is a very nice tactical asset. IMO, in a bike list, 10 termies on foot > 5 termies in a raider.

Illumini wrote:Err... if this is the case, then that is your problem, not the loss of combat tactics. There should be a lot in your bike army that will absolutely demolish kanz.

You would think so. But between the KFF and completely missing to hit, I did very little damage. When I did, it seemed I rolled 1s and 2s alot and his dreads (with 'eavy armor) just kept marching forward.

If I had to play again I think I would far a lot better. I was trying some new stuff out and just rolled horribly on top of it. It was a friendly game, so no worries. And I am not exaggerrating on my bad dice and his good dice. At one point, he cover saved 10 out of 12 shots. The 2 that went through, I rolled snake eyes on.

Hard to win that way.

As for the termies on foot, I would have to try out to see how it plays out. It does seem like it would be effective however. I never thought of running them that way.

Illumini wrote: They can also be slingshotted into combat by biker IC's.

Can you explain this please?