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I love my Saurus, but dear GOD do I hate being I1.

How about a possible upgrade to Saurus units: Warm-Blooded.

Warm-Blooded Saurus are a different breed of Saurus, more capable of independent thought and far quicker on their feet.

Gains: Initiative 4.

Loses: Cold-Blooded.

I don't think they would need a change in points. And you cannot mix warm and cold blooded Saurus in a unit.

Thoughts?

I4 is a bit much imo. I3 would be fairer. Not dead last but not going to go faster than normal humans either.

But yea, seeing that several IRL dinos are warm blooded, makes sense I suppose

Saurus are one of the best core units in the game. You're not going to merely give up Cold Blooded to get rid of their only weakness.

Another game had an unnofficial rule that always stuck with me. If a penalty isn't a penalty, you don't get a reward for using it. Just about everyone is going to be inside some LD reroll bubble so if they are cold blooded or LD 3 it doesn't matter a whole lot.

Take a penalty that actually hurts. If they are warm blooded no more scaly skin, 3s 3t. Or lose that extra attack.

But no, just giving up something you don't need and taking away something that really hurts doesn't work. Use light magic for once

You don't play Lizards, do you? Losing Cold Blooded is a pretty big deal for a fighting unit.

Decreasing the chance of passing a LD check by what, 20%+ ISN'T a penalty?

Would you pay 11 points for an Empire swordsman with no special rules? That is what you are suggesting with your changes.

It's not much of a penalty because Saurus blocks rarely lose combat and the battle standard bearer means their chances of failing a leadership test even without cold blooded is very low.

I4 but not cold blooded makes Saurus blocks much better, which is obviously what you're aiming for but one of the best infantry units in the game doesn't need to be better.

Mattlov wrote:Would you pay 11 points for an Empire swordsman with no special rules? That is what you are suggesting with your changes.

Uh, there is no Empire anything that comes close to their stats. They are as strong and as tough as ogres with 2 attacks and scaly skin. About the closest are Daemonettes who are -1S/T but higher in WS and I (much like you want) and with a ward instead of scaly and AP. But they also cost 12, crumble, etc. They are also in the same realm as Chaos Warriors who have higher armor, WS, I but no cold blood--but they also cost 1/3 more.

Saurus are an extremely good deal when gauged against their peer groups from old or new books.

It seems to me like the rule proposed is along the lines of 'I really like using Saurus but I don't particularly like the rules that make them unique' which is a pretty dubious way of producing a new rule, in my opinion.

But that idea can kind of work if you look at it as an upgrade to a single unit of Saurus, or possibly for a one-off campaign (this latter option would likely work better as you could control what armies the hot blooded saurus face in combat, as it'd actually make you worse against any kind of Elf). But if you go down that path then you want to make it stand out, make it a real feature of that campaign. So you'd have it at IN4 as originally suggested, and then you'd maybe think about adding something else in addition to losing Cold Blooded. Perhaps these Saurus are far more aggressive, much less disciplined, and so suffer all the rules from frenzy, without gaining the bonus attack.

Mattlov wrote:Would you pay 11 points for an Empire swordsman with no special rules? That is what you are suggesting with your changes.

Given I'd also get upgrades to my strength and toughness, and a second attack, and for just 4 points more, I think I would pay that. I think I would pay that as many times as anyone would let me.

The reference to Empire Swordsmen was from this:

DukeRustfield wrote:
Take a penalty that actually hurts. If they are warm blooded no more scaly skin, 3s 3t. Or lose that extra attack.

I like my Saurus for what they do. I don't like getting my face beaten in by everything before I get to swing. I don't take champions for units because getting into a challenge is the worst idea you can have as a Saurus (and isn't worth the points).

I would like to have a unit, ANY unit, in the Lizardmen army that can charge another small unit and obliterate it before it gets a chance to swing. Instead, that is what is generally happening to me. I'd just like SOMETHING to be able to do the same.

If I'm going to be stuck at I1, give me the option for great weapons.

Mattlov wrote:

I like my Saurus for what they do. I don't like getting my face beaten in by everything before I get to swing. I don't take champions for units because getting into a challenge is the worst idea you can have as a Saurus (and isn't worth the points).

How is your 1 Wound Saurus Champ taking the 4/5 attacks from an uber character instead of those attacks killing more Saurus not worth it?

Saurus are honestly amazing for their point cost. They tend to survive against most units and Step Up means you're not losing out on those 2 Attacks per front rank model, so their I1 isn't even that much of a hindrance.

Take larger blocks of saurus?

It's 8th edition, units are big anyway. Your unit of saurus shouldn't be getting wiped by anything in 1 turn if it's big enough.

Or use a Light Slann. WS10 I10 saurus warriors are scary.

streamdragon wrote:Or use a Light Slann. WS10 I10 saurus warriors are scary.

I've tried that. I am cursed with the Lore of Light. My Light Slaan blow themselves up very early in games, in usually devastating fashion. And before you ask, in close to a dozen games now, the Cupped Hands has NEVER functioned for me.

Dice are not aware of what magic lore you are using. If you were going to blow up you would have done so with light magic or fire magic or death magic. Unless you're saying not having Life Throne is what doomed you.

But the GW site and the army book (I recently re-read it) repeatedly state how good Saurus are and even compare them to WoC warriors. There really isn't much room to make them better without making them heinously more expensive--and just carbon copies of WoC--or making them weaker in other areas.

See? I don't understand that argument. Saurus don't stand up to WoC particularly well. The Warriors hit easier, negate a chunk of the armor save, take the hit better than they give it.

At BEST it ends up a grind fest the Saurus will eventually lose. How are they on par? Less WS, slower, worse armor for a just a couple points less.

It's not a couple points. They are like >33% cheaper (depending on the option they take, but that's the minimum). That is massive. So no, nekkid warriors vs nekkid saurus is nearly an identical fight.

You can't just look at stats. If that was the case, Ogres would "win" every fight in the game many times over. But the fact they are 3-5x the cost of other races' Core is why they can still lose in the long run.

WoC can be tweaked to be better against Saurus, cuz they got so many damn options. But remember you're still trying to win at cost. Like if you gave them a mark of TZ + shield and made the unit size large enough (which effectively dilutes the cost of the mark) then the WoC win on cost. Same with a Mark of Nurgle which can effectively push the to-hit down another point.

But depending on the configuration, unit size, etc., the Saurus can win on cost.

Mattlov wrote:I like my Saurus for what they do. I don't like getting my face beaten in by everything before I get to swing.

So you like all the unique strengths about Lizardmen, you just don't like the unique disadvantage they have.

It is possible to argue for rules changes because a stat or rule is problematic (in terms of play balance, or it just causes lots of unclear situations or something else), or because it doesn't fit the fluff and background of the unit - it doesn't 'feel right'. But to just say I don't like suffering this negative, so I want to change it is a really poor way of going about looking at a rules set.

I mean, if I was to say 'I love how cheap Empire troops are, but I don't like that they've got mediocre stats and no special rules to help them unless you take characters' would I be making a strong argument or a weak one? Because that's really what you're doing.

I don't take champions for units because getting into a challenge is the worst idea you can have as a Saurus (and isn't worth the points).

That's why you take champions - so your characters aren't stuck in challenges, and the enemy character isn't otherwise ripping through multiple ordinary troops.

If I'm going to be stuck at I1, give me the option for great weapons.

So the other suggestion is to get rid of the other disadvantage of lizardmen - no access to great weapons.

I don't hardly even take characters. Getting killed in a challenge or running to the rear rank just aren't worth the points for me. 90% of the time my characters are loners and I sure as hell never issue a challenge.

Mattlov wrote:I don't hardly even take characters. Getting killed in a challenge or running to the rear rank just aren't worth the points for me. 90% of the time my characters are loners and I sure as hell never issue a challenge.

As a Vampire Counts player this is weird to read.

Mattlov wrote:I don't hardly even take characters. Getting killed in a challenge or running to the rear rank just aren't worth the points for me. 90% of the time my characters are loners and I sure as hell never issue a challenge.

Fair enough then, that would make the champion less valuable (though they still can be used to challenge and hopefully drawing in a powerful enemy character and limiting his damage to just the champion, instead of 3 or 4 regular guys).

Nitros14 wrote:

Mattlov wrote:I don't hardly even take characters. Getting killed in a challenge or running to the rear rank just aren't worth the points for me. 90% of the time my characters are loners and I sure as hell never issue a challenge.

As a Vampire Counts player this is weird to read.

I play against WoC a LOT. So I get challenged all the time. It is 11 points for a Saurus champ, or 11 for another Saurus. I'd rather have the extra attack.