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hello I have decided to start GK and am going to buy 20 grey knights, 10 terminators and a dreadknight. but i cant decide on an HQ, i am stuck between a grand master and a librarian, and is there any lists that are semi competitive that i can make out of these things. Thankyou for your time

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I started with a Grand Master for my army because of the versatility of the Grand Strategy rule. Recently I have moved to use a Librarian though due to the usefulness of his psychic powers in conjunction with the rest of my force.

To start I would go with a Brother-Captain/Grand Master and just use one of the terminators to count as that HQ. Once you get a feel for how you want the army to go change it up, try a librarian, see if you like it or not.

From how people whine all the time it sounds like GK's are competitive no matter how you field them.

erikwfg wrote:From how people whine all the time it sounds like GK's are competitive no matter how you field them.

That's cause its true. Enough Psycannons and Psy-Ammo, and it can defeat mostly everything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There is no need to really choose, OP, just take whatever you feel is good. It will be good no matter what.

If you have friends, and want to keep them or keep them interested in 40k, you may want to consider another army. I'm not even remotely kidding.

Shadelkan wrote:

erikwfg wrote:From how people whine all the time it sounds like GK's are competitive no matter how you field them.

That's cause its true. Enough Psycannons and Psy-Ammo, and it can defeat mostly everything.

There is no need to really choose, OP, just take whatever you feel is good. It will be good no matter what.

If you have friends, and want to keep them or keep them interested in 40k, you may want to consider another army. I'm not even remotely kidding.

@OP: Don't listen to this kind of feedback. No army is a win button.

Are you looking to play competitively or just for fun?

pretre wrote:

Shadelkan wrote:

erikwfg wrote:From how people whine all the time it sounds like GK's are competitive no matter how you field them.

That's cause its true. Enough Psycannons and Psy-Ammo, and it can defeat mostly everything.

There is no need to really choose, OP, just take whatever you feel is good. It will be good no matter what.

If you have friends, and want to keep them or keep them interested in 40k, you may want to consider another army. I'm not even remotely kidding.

@OP: Don't listen to this kind of feedback. No army is a win button.

Are you looking to play competitively or just for fun?

True, I suppose you can play them without psy-ammo, shoot without LOS, Psychic Vehicles, Purifiers, or Psy-Riflemen Dreadnoughts, etc. (List goes on for a while).

Seriously though, it's hard to play GK and lose. You have to be abysmal. Other armies need to kit themselves to counter you, while you counter every army without attempt.

Shadelkan wrote:Seriously though, it's hard to play GK and lose. You have to be abysmal. Other armies need to kit themselves to counter you, while you counter every army without attempt.

Not to get this thread off topic, but this is just completely wrong. Take a look at the tournament standings recently and then tell me that GK are OMG OP!

Tournaments mean little vs FLGS. It's hard to measure them that way, I admit, but there's plenty of anecdotal evidence to point that they're "OMG" at the casual level. OP asked for semi-comp lists to look at, I doubt he's entering tournies.

For the absolute sake of topic, the Grand Master is a great choice. He allows you to make potentially game changing decisions as the game is about to start, by giving several units USRs. If you want a cheap HQ, inquisitors allow you to modify your reserve rolls to assure or stop your troops from entering the field.

Shadelkan wrote:Tournaments mean little vs FLGS. It's hard to measure them that way, I admit, but there's plenty of anecdotal evidence to point that they're "OMG" at the casual level. OP asked for semi-comp lists to look at, I doubt he's entering tournies.

So in your opinion, based on your limited experience at your FLGS, they are OP. It is hardly sweeping the nation.

For the absolute sake of topic, the Grand Master is a great choice. He allows you to make potentially game changing decisions as the game is about to start, by giving several units USRs. If you want a cheap HQ, inquisitors allow you to modify your reserve rolls to assure or stop your troops from entering the field.

I would also encourage you to try to think about what type of army you are looking for. Small and elite force of Paladins? Inquisitorial warband? Grey Knight Strike Force?

The main builds are Draigowing and Crowerifiers. You can guess as to who leads each, with a large amount of Paladins and Purifiers in each respectively. GK are not a "win button" army by any means, and some units are abysmal (Crowe.)

Librarians are great in almost any list. Pick the right powers and they can turn mundane units into utter wrecking balls. There was a group of articles on Grey Knights a while ago that was quite good, I'll try and find a link.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Grey%20Knight%20Tactica%20%28Sample%20Army%20Lists%29
EDIT: Ok, this article should help, it looks pretty complete. The OP did a range of these covering the units in the 'Dex and how competitive he felt they were, and generally was pretty accurate in most people's view. They should help you out; my main point of advice however would be to experiment. See what you like, what works and what doesn't and go from there.

pretre wrote:

Shadelkan wrote:Tournaments mean little vs FLGS. It's hard to measure them that way, I admit, but there's plenty of anecdotal evidence to point that they're "OMG" at the casual level. OP asked for semi-comp lists to look at, I doubt he's entering tournies.

So in your opinion, based on your limited experience at your FLGS, they are OP. It is hardly sweeping the nation.

No, rather from the opinions of people from this forum, other forums, facebook pages related to 40k, and the opinions of people who have played against GK that I know both personally and on acquaintanceship. My FLGS is not the only place where this opinion is drawn either; there's enough hearsay from people who wander between the other FLGS in Montreal to gather the idea that GK is broken/overpowered. On the occasions GK have played at the store, only once did I see them have a truly hard time, and many times I've seen them wipe the board. They are an incredibly powerful codex, I cannot fathom how that can be denied.

Shadelkan wrote:

pretre wrote:

Shadelkan wrote:Tournaments mean little vs FLGS. It's hard to measure them that way, I admit, but there's plenty of anecdotal evidence to point that they're "OMG" at the casual level. OP asked for semi-comp lists to look at, I doubt he's entering tournies.

So in your opinion, based on your limited experience at your FLGS, they are OP. It is hardly sweeping the nation.

No, rather from the opinions of people from this forum, other forums, facebook pages related to 40k, and the opinions of people who have played against GK that I know both personally and on acquaintanceship. My FLGS is not the only place where this opinion is drawn either; there's enough hearsay from people who wander between the other FLGS in Montreal to gather the idea that GK is broken/overpowered. On the occasions GK have played at the store, only once did I see them have a truly hard time, and many times I've seen them wipe the board. They are an incredibly powerful codex, I cannot fathom how that can be denied.

Because the internet never lies, or uses hyperbole, and heaven forbid someone projects anything apart from an objective view onto it!

GK are good, no doubt. But OP? No, every codex has their powerful units. As to how powerful a codex looks is entirely dependant on who is facing it. The view on GK being OP is both an old, and boring, subject, not to mention obsolete. Come 6th ED, everyone will forget about GK. I seem to recall Chaos Marines being OP at one point.

I love that excuse; "they're going to get toned down in 6th ed."

Are you looking to play competitively or just for fun?

Shadelkan wrote:I love that excuse; "they're going to get toned down in 6th ed."

You really are perpetuating a myth.

I'm by no means the best general in the world, but I can win with GK with a 'fluffy' list, and I can lose with my Crowifier

Unfortunately, unless I'm playing against an experienced player, before they game they will invariably say "Oh no! Grey Knights? I'll NEVER win!" It gets annoying because my win/loss is pretty much exactly the same as when I first started playing IG. Both are strong armies but, as others have said, neither are an auto-win.

It's my experience at my FLGS and on Dakka (BOLS etc) that people who say GKs are auto-win are just looking for an easy way to somehow excuse themselves from any tactical responsibility of losing. It puts the GK player in a similar position to fist fighting with a 90 year old man: if he loses, it is rubbed in his face and if he wins, it's not really a win because he was expected to.

I have a feeling you've been on the receiving end of some severe beatings by GKs. If so, I'm sorry and know that that's not necessarily always going to be the case. If not, then you're just intentionally giving out false info.

DoW

Well I'm running a list with coteaz as a captain of the alpha legion, some henchmen squads (representing IG and adeptus mechanicus respectively) on foot who have been indoctrinated, one squad of knights as legionnaires (I'll be avoiding psychic powers probably) and a dreadknight as a legionnaire who is daemon-y. It is not at all a list that people would scream when play agains, and after this holidays (when I am going to get a lot more play testing in) then it'll be up to semi-competitive levels, at the moment it is more just for fun (i.e. I tend to get rolled). But that'll change, it'll end up relatively formidable.

And I'm doing it because I like the idea of heaps of indoctrinated troopers and only a few legionnaires, I was going to use SM with heaps of scouts but it wasn't the same. I didn't get into it because I want a silly army. But then I am also working on a list with crowe, purifiers and some interceptors and a dreadnought or 2 for when my brother wants a much more competitive game. And thats just as fine to have. Just pick an army you like either because you think it best does what you want, or because it is at the power level you want.

On a slightly related note, what is the height difference between the old DP with a kai gun and wings and a dreadknight? In other words, how big of a rock do I need to jam under him?

On more OT, I'd say a grand master, because they won't kill themselves with perils, and you get grand strategy (which is cool) and all his other toys.

I'm done spinning the wheel in the dirt. Some will think they're balanced, some will think they're ridiculous. Plenty on both sides will never be convinced by the other; I'm just one of them.

"Screaming" aside, this doesn't mean I can't help OP. I was genuine when I said pick anything, since he can't truly go wrong with whatever he chooses. Grand Master is good (OP said he's choosing between Librarian and Grand Master). You can field the Terminators as two 5 man squads of Troops, as well as a 10-man Teleport Squad of Knights, and a 10-man Purifier Squad.

motyak wrote:
On more OT, I'd say a grand master, because they won't kill themselves with perils, and you get grand strategy (which is cool) and all his other toys.

Well, Peril's is a 1/18 possibility. That's a 5.5556% chance. IMO, that's the tiniest risk I can think of in this game besides a Rhino beaching itself on a piece of terrain with dozer blades. And remember the GM is also a psyker (though it is admittedly not the reason for his existence).

On topic though... I have a preference towards libbys in nearly every SM dex because in my local meta (which reflects the interwebz very well.... almost to a scary point) most people use some sort of psyker so having the hood will usually pay off very well in the long run. And if they don't have any psychic defense (DE, crons, etc.) then its a freaking field day as far as your libby is concerned. With GK, that means you have 3+ cover pretty much ALL the time. You'll always get Hammerhand off. You'll always get Might of Titan off etc.

That said, the GM is very very neat with his Grand Strategy and he'll pretty much be a god in CC against almost everything.

The only one I wouldn't take is the Brother-Captain, for 25 less pts, you lose out on Grand Strategy, which is the main selling point of the GM IMO.

And in any case, for the love of god do not give the GM a psycannon, it's a BS6 one yes, but for 45pts.... I'd rather not...

Shadelkan wrote:I was genuine when I said pick anything, since he can't truly go wrong with whatever he chooses.

Brotherhood champions, Crowe outside of a dedicated list, most of the Henchman options, Named Inquisitors outside of Corteaz, Stern and Purgation squads are all thought to be underpowered or too situational to be used in competitive play. Sure, they have their uses, but you can't literally pick anything and expect it to make a competitive list.

liquidjoshi wrote:

Shadelkan wrote:I was genuine when I said pick anything, since he can't truly go wrong with whatever he chooses.

Brotherhood champions, Crowe outside of a dedicated list, most of the Henchman options, Named Inquisitors outside of Corteaz, Stern and Purgation squads are all thought to be underpowered or too situational to be used in competitive play. Sure, they have their uses, but you can't literally pick anything and expect it to make a competitive list.

Except this isn't for competitive play. The guy was asking for semi-comp lists, if he was looking to make a comp list, he'd be asking to look at those, don't you think?

The moment I saw this, I knew there'd be people whining about GK being OP. Which isn't to say I don't agree, but this most definitely ISN'T the place for it.

That said, I don't know much about GK besides the buzzwords; purifier spam, psybolts, rifleman dreds, and so on. I do, however, know for a fact that the Librarian is a DYNAMITE unit, who can offer benefits to virtually any SM list, from any SM codex.

Edited for touchscreen/autocorrect shenanigans.

Librarian == not so much for GK lists, though. He's good, but he takes up one of the HQ slots, and that means giving up something really powerful like one of the "troop" IC's or one with the "CC - I win!" psychotroke grenades.

pretre wrote:

Shadelkan wrote:Seriously though, it's hard to play GK and lose. You have to be abysmal. Other armies need to kit themselves to counter you, while you counter every army without attempt.

Not to get this thread off topic, but this is just completely wrong. Take a look at the tournament standings recently and then tell me that GK are OMG OP!

Oh...You mean like Adepticon 2012 where 8 out of the top 16 armies were Grey knights? And that was a tournament of ... a boat load of players.

Any way...I would choose a librarian, just because I like the model and he's fun to play with. But what is really REALLY good about grey knights is that they are the perfect starter army. For example,

1) You can build a good list with a low model count. And that means you can get an army for less $ - nothing from GW is cheap though.
2) You can play this army with less skill and not get your a$$ kicked all of the time. Compare that to say ... Eldar, where you really have to be good to win consistently. I think this is really where all of the OP whining comes from. When a really good player takes a GK army and knows how everyone else's army works, he is going to be really really tough to beat.

Randall Turner wrote:Librarian == not so much for GK lists, though. He's good, but he takes up one of the HQ slots, and that means giving up something really powerful like one of the "troop" IC's or one with the "CC - I win!" psychotroke grenades.

We are talking about the same Grey Knights, right? The Librarian is one of the most effective units in terms of support imaginable. Might of Titan, Quicksilver and Sanctuary are three powers I never leave home without, and The Shrouding is another great power. Sure, offensively he could be better (but then he really would be broken), but his supportive powers more than make up for it.

liquidjoshi wrote:

Randall Turner wrote:Librarian == not so much for GK lists, though. He's good, but he takes up one of the HQ slots, and that means giving up something really powerful like one of the "troop" IC's or one with the "CC - I win!" psychotroke grenades.

We are talking about the same Grey Knights, right? The Librarian is one of the most effective units in terms of support imaginable. Might of Titan, Quicksilver and Sanctuary are three powers I never leave home without, and The Shrouding is another great power. Sure, offensively he could be better (but then he really would be broken), but his supportive powers more than make up for it.

What army do I play? How do those powers affect me? Then how to they compare with psychotroke grenades, for instance? Then how do they compare as a force multiplier to Coteaz?

The Libby is useful in pretty much any squad. Think of him as a swiss army psyker. There are enough powers there that are versatile enough to apply to your army. I run one in my Crowerifiers; Psychotrokes are fun, but not insta-win in assaults. I've found Libby to be far more effective than Psycs, for a unmber of reasons. Unless you're running pure henchmen, or a crowe+corteaz style list, I see no reason not to take one.

Go get some rhinos, maybe old ones...you can ebay them for less...then grab some AOBR for the cheap dreddy, some terminators (you will only need arms change!) and standard marines to use as purifiers. I think you can add the HQ and start playing it.

liquidjoshi wrote:The Libby is useful in pretty much any squad. Think of him as a swiss army psyker. There are enough powers there that are versatile enough to apply to your army. I run one in my Crowerifiers; Psychotrokes are fun, but not insta-win in assaults. I've found Libby to be far more effective than Psycs, for a unmber of reasons. Unless you're running pure henchmen, or a crowe+corteaz style list, I see no reason not to take one.

Well, it's probably a situational thing, I only see them in action against my own troops. Psychotroke's simultaneously contact a couple of my otherwise very very tough CC units and cause the whole flank to collapse, while those same very tough CC units of mine largely ignore terrain and have le crap initiative anyway, can't really hurt them much there. So my view's skewed.

Well, they can be useful, and if applied correctly can, as you said, shut down powerful CC units. But the Librarian can be used offensively, defensively, to improve movement, cover, and deny assaults. I would put him as my tp HQ of all time, out of any I've used. Alongside useless Crowe, he balances it out.

Nix: Good advice there, I'd look for either an Aegis defence line or some IG heavy weapon team autocannons for the Dread too, OP.