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I am having serious trouble defeating the nids for a long while already w/ both of my armies. Neither list that i make for both armies always get annilated no matter what. What lists for both of my armies can be very effective against nids?

Plus the same thing goes w/ facing Tau and Orks

What lists are you usually facing?
What lists do you usually field?
What models do you have?

purplefood wrote:What lists are you usually facing?
What lists do you usually field?
What models do you have?

i dont usually type down my lists but write them only. and if i were gonna type it all up would be a damn ain to do because i dont even remember them all :(. but for my chaos models here is a link
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/439884.page

i havent posted my guard models up yet.

sniperray213 wrote:
HQ:
Abbadon The Despoiler
Chaos Lord(i add upgrades of my choosing)
custom Chaos Scorcerer(upgrades of my choice)

Elites:
5 Possessed space marines
1 Terminator(custom)

Troops:
25 Chaos space marines (i choose what they are)
20 KHORNE BERZERKERS(10 each with a skull champ)

Transports:
2 Rhinos so far

Fast Attack:
6 custom Raptors(3 of the are from the 25 Chaos Space Marines)

Heavy Support
Custom Havoc squad(2 of the are from the 25 Chaos Space Marines)
Chaos Defiler
3 Obliterators


1 custom Chaos spawn

Do you know what list you are likely to be facing?
It helps to know...

And some flamers i play nids and marine. so ill say what i hate versusing first tanks with flamestorm cannons or heavy flamers.
next th/ss terminators taking out my carnifexs

You're having trouble beating Tyranids with Guard?

I don't even...

How to beat 'nids with IG:
Shoot them. Shoot them all. Win. Seriously, just shoot the synapse creatures with any given heavy weapons. Bring it Down with autocannons, plasma guns, or what have you will do the trick. If there's Warriors, hit them with Battle Cannons and kill droves of them per shot. Tyranids are one of the weakest armies in the game, and IG are one of the strongest. Just focus your fire at any given target and as long as your list isn't filled to the brim with Ratlings or something you should do just fine.

sniperray213 wrote:
HQ:
Abbadon The Despoiler
Chaos Lord(i add upgrades of my choosing)
custom Chaos Scorcerer(upgrades of my choice)

I thought you were only allowed two HQ choices.

purplefood wrote:

sniperray213 wrote:
HQ:
Abbadon The Despoiler
Chaos Lord(i add upgrades of my choosing)
custom Chaos Scorcerer(upgrades of my choice)

Elites:
5 Possessed space marines
1 Terminator(custom)

Troops:
25 Chaos space marines (i choose what they are)
20 KHORNE BERZERKERS(10 each with a skull champ)

Transports:
2 Rhinos so far

Fast Attack:
6 custom Raptors(3 of the are from the 25 Chaos Space Marines)

Heavy Support
Custom Havoc squad(2 of the are from the 25 Chaos Space Marines)
Chaos Defiler
3 Obliterators


1 custom Chaos spawn

Do you know what list you are likely to be facing?
It helps to know...

i can try to wip up a list i have made but never used yet in a 1k list


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ultramarine963 wrote:And some flamers i play nids and marine. so ill say what i hate versusing first tanks with flamestorm cannons or heavy flamers.
next th/ss terminators taking out my carnifexs

kool and i do use flamers in my guard list but it still gets owned


Automatically Appended Next Post:

-Loki- wrote:You're having trouble beating Tyranids with Guard?

I don't even...

ya a friend lays nids and he keeps winning every time we battle no matter what list i make.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother SRM wrote:How to beat 'nids with IG:
Shoot them. Shoot them all. Win. Seriously, just shoot the synapse creatures with any given heavy weapons. Bring it Down with autocannons, plasma guns, or what have you will do the trick. If there's Warriors, hit them with Battle Cannons and kill droves of them per shot. Tyranids are one of the weakest armies in the game, and IG are one of the strongest. Just focus your fire at any given target and as long as your list isn't filled to the brim with Ratlings or something you should do just fine.

I do all of that but i still lose no matter the lists i make. I do put a battle cannon in my lists all the time


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Hornifex wrote:

sniperray213 wrote:
HQ:
Abbadon The Despoiler
Chaos Lord(i add upgrades of my choosing)
custom Chaos Scorcerer(upgrades of my choice)

I thought you were only allowed two HQ choices.

FYI i only use 2 of them only. The sorcerer is custom i made myself. and you can have as many HQ's in your army but you only have to use 2 hq's

Smells like a troll in here...

Nalathani wrote:Smells like a troll in here...

what troll?

Beating Tyranids with Imperial Guard isn't quite as one sided an affair as some of the responses would have you believe. Tervigons that cast feel no pain on themselves laugh at auto cannons, multilasers and any other medium strength weapons you throw at them. This pretty much leaves you with vendettas, which will be priority 1 for Hive Guard, and mech veterans which have to get in real close to do any damage.

I'd advise fire discipline; focus fire on one monstrous creature at a time. Try to keep your long range big guns out of assault range and do your best to keep from getting surrounded.

creeping-deth87 wrote:Beating Tyranids with Imperial Guard isn't quite as one sided an affair as some of the responses would have you believe. Tervigons that cast feel no pain on themselves laugh at auto cannons, multilasers and any other medium strength weapons you throw at them. This pretty much leaves you with vendettas, which will be priority 1 for Hive Guard, and mech veterans which have to get in real close to do any damage.

I'd advise fire discipline; focus fire on one monstrous creature at a time. Try to keep your long range big guns out of assault range and do your best to keep from getting surrounded.

Thanks for the tip but dont forget about the nids fleet of foot rule

HQ:
Abbadon The Despoiler
Chaos Lord(i add upgrades of my choosing)
custom Chaos Scorcerer(upgrades of my choice)

Elites:
5 Possessed space marines
1 Terminator(custom)

Troops:
25 Chaos space marines (i choose what they are)
20 KHORNE BERZERKERS(10 each with a skull champ)

Transports:
2 Rhinos so far

Fast Attack:
6 custom Raptors(3 of the are from the 25 Chaos Space Marines)

Heavy Support
Custom Havoc squad(2 of the are from the 25 Chaos Space Marines)
Chaos Defiler
3 Obliterators


1 custom Chaos spawn

Why do you say "custom" on almost every unit? It doesn't matter if you converted every guy or whatever, they'll still perform the same on the table. What are the Khorne berskers, Raptors, Marines, etc. armed with? 10 dudes with bolters isn't too scary, but if they have two plasma guns and a power fist champ that's a whole different story. Also, Possessed are bad, you can't field just one Terminator, Chaos Spawn are terrible, Raptors are overpriced, and Marines and Berserkers should be in transports so they can get within rapid fire or charge range easily.

creeping-deth87 wrote:Beating Tyranids with Imperial Guard isn't quite as one sided an affair as some of the responses would have you believe. Tervigons that cast feel no pain on themselves laugh at auto cannons, multilasers and any other medium strength weapons you throw at them. This pretty much leaves you with vendettas, which will be priority 1 for Hive Guard, and mech veterans which have to get in real close to do any damage.

I'd advise fire discipline; focus fire on one monstrous creature at a time. Try to keep your long range big guns out of assault range and do your best to keep from getting surrounded.

Yurp. Zooanthropes and Hive Guard can mash your tanks and Genestealers will rip your blobs a new one.
Can you post us a "typical" imperial guard list?

I"d start with the advice that Abbadon at 1k points...is eating up like a third of your army, lose him for a demon prince with wings and maybe the flamer template psyker power.

Raptors should go since they are a tiny squad, same with the possessed, use the points to get plague marines for objective holding and plasma rifles.

Can you field a squad of two havoks? I don't believe you can, and I would give them plasma cannons or lascannons

Testify wrote:

creeping-deth87 wrote:Beating Tyranids with Imperial Guard isn't quite as one sided an affair as some of the responses would have you believe. Tervigons that cast feel no pain on themselves laugh at auto cannons, multilasers and any other medium strength weapons you throw at them. This pretty much leaves you with vendettas, which will be priority 1 for Hive Guard, and mech veterans which have to get in real close to do any damage.

I'd advise fire discipline; focus fire on one monstrous creature at a time. Try to keep your long range big guns out of assault range and do your best to keep from getting surrounded.

Yurp. Zooanthropes and Hive Guard can mash your tanks and Genestealers will rip your blobs a new one.
Can you post us a "typical" imperial guard list?

To be fair, on average, the hive guard and zoanthropes will get shot down before killing an equivalent weight in tanks usually rather unfortunately in my experience, particularly the Zoanthropes. Likewise, a 10 strong squad of genestealers charging into a typical 31 strong blob will win the first round of combat and the IG will likely stay and the genestealers will all be dead at the end of the second round of combat while the blob will still be roughly at half strength with its primary CC and shooting capabilities (powerweapons and heavy weapons) likely still intact.

With guard you just can't be afraid to throw your men into a meat grinder. You can probably out-attrition him if you really try

Vaktathi wrote:

Testify wrote:

creeping-deth87 wrote:Beating Tyranids with Imperial Guard isn't quite as one sided an affair as some of the responses would have you believe. Tervigons that cast feel no pain on themselves laugh at auto cannons, multilasers and any other medium strength weapons you throw at them. This pretty much leaves you with vendettas, which will be priority 1 for Hive Guard, and mech veterans which have to get in real close to do any damage.

I'd advise fire discipline; focus fire on one monstrous creature at a time. Try to keep your long range big guns out of assault range and do your best to keep from getting surrounded.

Yurp. Zooanthropes and Hive Guard can mash your tanks and Genestealers will rip your blobs a new one.
Can you post us a "typical" imperial guard list?

To be fair, on average, the hive guard and zoanthropes will get shot down before killing an equivalent weight in tanks usually rather unfortunately in my experience, particularly the Zoanthropes. Likewise, a 10 strong squad of genestealers charging into a typical 31 strong blob will win the first round of combat and the IG will likely stay and the genestealers will all be dead at the end of the second round of combat while the blob will still be roughly at half strength with its primary CC and shooting capabilities (powerweapons and heavy weapons) likely still intact.

Well a "typical" blob of 31 with meltaguns and power weapons is 255 points, which is roughly 18 genestealers with adrenal sacks.
18 genestealers give 54 attacks - 36 hits, 6 dead from rending, 9 from failed armour saves.

Guard strike back, 12 PW attacks do 6 hits, 2 dead, 14 normal attacks do 7 hits, 1.5 dead.

Assuming the guard don't flee, second round sees the remaining 'stealers do 19.3 hits, 3.2 dead from rending, 6.4 from others. Guard kill 1.5 from normal attacks, 2 dead from PWs.

We're standing at 4.6 normal guardsmen, the three sargents and the commissar (assuming he didn't execute anyone), compared to 11 genestealers left. I don't need to continue to know that the stealers are going to win.
They also have infiltrate and fleet, so good luck evading the charge from them. You'll also be pinned down and charged by any nearby 'nids, most of which will rip you to shred in a single round.
edit - I completely forgot Furious Charge. That's an extra 6dead the first round, 3.2 the second round. That's enough to wipe out the entire blob. In two rounds of combat.
So your blob gets charged in the 'nid turn, and by their next turn they get a consolidation move, movement, fleet and assault again


Regarding Zooanthropes - Tyranids are classic target saturisation. My gunline has to take down three squads of Zooanthropes/Hive Guard, as well as take out the swarm before it reaches my lines, as well as the MCs that are rushing towards my tanks. Realistically I can't take all of that down in a single turn of shooting, some things have to be prioritised - even if that means your Russ taking 3 BS4 S10 Lances to the front.

Brother SRM wrote:How to beat 'nids with IG:
Shoot them. Shoot them all. Win. Seriously, just shoot the synapse creatures with any given heavy weapons. Bring it Down with autocannons, plasma guns, or what have you will do the trick. If there's Warriors, hit them with Battle Cannons and kill droves of them per shot. Tyranids are one of the weakest armies in the game, and IG are one of the strongest. Just focus your fire at any given target and as long as your list isn't filled to the brim with Ratlings or something you should do just fine.

Even ratlings on a synapse creature will do some serious damage considering they all wound on 4+ and have rending....

DemetriDominov wrote:
Even ratlings on a synapse creature will do some serious damage considering they all wound on 4+ and have rending....

The math on Ratlings isn't great though. 10 of them will hit with 6 shots on average, and wound on three of those. With a 3+ save, you're looking at one, maybe two wounds on average on something like a Carnifex. That's nice and everything, but I'd rather have autocannon teams, Hydras, vets with special weapons, or any number of other things doing a similar job. Ratlings are definitely better against Nids than they are against some armies, but they still suffer from the weak sniper rules.

Testify wrote:

Well a "typical" blob of 31 with meltaguns and power weapons is 255 points, which is roughly 18 genestealers with adrenal sacks.
18 genestealers give 54 attacks - 36 hits, 6 dead from rending, 9 from failed armour saves.

Guard strike back, 12 PW attacks do 6 hits, 2 dead, 14 normal attacks do 7 hits, 1.5 dead.

Assuming the guard don't flee, second round sees the remaining 'stealers do 19.3 hits, 3.2 dead from rending, 6.4 from others. Guard kill 1.5 from normal attacks, 2 dead from PWs.

We're standing at 4.6 normal guardsmen, the three sargents and the commissar (assuming he didn't execute anyone), compared to 11 genestealers left. I don't need to continue to know that the stealers are going to win.

Yes, but who takes such large and kitted Genestealer squads? I certainly haven't seen one lately. And that's the issue. You see 31man blob squads when blobs are taken. You very rarely see large units of kitted Genestealers.

They also have infiltrate and fleet, so good luck evading the charge from them. You'll also be pinned down and charged by any nearby 'nids, most of which will rip you to shred in a single round.

If we're going to assume pinning down and charging from other units then we've got all sorts of stuff on the IG side as well like Hellhounds and Vendettas and whatnot If the Genestealers are charging turn 1 from infiltrate, then it's also likely that most other Nid units aren't nearby.

Infiltrate isn't a huge issue, you most likely won't get off a charge in one turn and that is more than enough time for an IG army to wreak all sorts of havoc on a 5+sv CC unit, and if they're outflanking a simple and commonly taken 30p HQ upgrade can throw that entire plan into disarray.

So your blob gets charged in the 'nid turn, and by their next turn they get a consolidation move, movement, fleet and assault again

Getting off a charge first turn is not hugely likely. The blob likely won't be deployed super far forward, if *anything* can see even a sliver of genestealer they have to be 18" away instead of 12", and with the size of most IG armies coupled with TLoS and the size of an 18 strong Genestealer squad, they just aren't going to ever get that 12", and with 18" the Genestealers are going to rely on maxing out that Run move (assuming they were 18" away and not 19" or 18.1", a common occurrence when trying to ensure the entire unit has cover/fits/etc, in which case they're pooched no matter what). So unlikely that they get off a first turn charge, exposing them to at least one, if not two (if the IG player went first) rounds of fire.

Regarding Zooanthropes - Tyranids are classic target saturisation. My gunline has to take down three squads of Zooanthropes/Hive Guard, as well as take out the swarm before it reaches my lines, as well as the MCs that are rushing towards my tanks. Realistically I can't take all of that down in a single turn of shooting, some things have to be prioritised - even if that means your Russ taking 3 BS4 S10 Lances to the front.

100% perfect IG thinking right there Everything is expendable.

Vaktathi wrote:

Testify wrote:

Well a "typical" blob of 31 with meltaguns and power weapons is 255 points, which is roughly 18 genestealers with adrenal sacks.
18 genestealers give 54 attacks - 36 hits, 6 dead from rending, 9 from failed armour saves.

Guard strike back, 12 PW attacks do 6 hits, 2 dead, 14 normal attacks do 7 hits, 1.5 dead.

Assuming the guard don't flee, second round sees the remaining 'stealers do 19.3 hits, 3.2 dead from rending, 6.4 from others. Guard kill 1.5 from normal attacks, 2 dead from PWs.

We're standing at 4.6 normal guardsmen, the three sargents and the commissar (assuming he didn't execute anyone), compared to 11 genestealers left. I don't need to continue to know that the stealers are going to win.

Yes, but who takes such large and kitted Genestealer squads? I certainly haven't seen one lately. And that's the issue. You see 31man blob squads when blobs are taken. You very rarely see large units of kitted Genestealers.

They also have infiltrate and fleet, so good luck evading the charge from them. You'll also be pinned down and charged by any nearby 'nids, most of which will rip you to shred in a single round.

If we're going to assume pinning down and charging from other units then we've got all sorts of stuff on the IG side as well like Hellhounds and Vendettas and whatnot If the Genestealers are charging turn 1 from infiltrate, then it's also likely that most other Nid units aren't nearby.

Infiltrate isn't a huge issue, you most likely won't get off a charge in one turn and that is more than enough time for an IG army to wreak all sorts of havoc on a 5+sv CC unit, and if they're outflanking a simple and commonly taken 30p HQ upgrade can throw that entire plan into disarray.

So your blob gets charged in the 'nid turn, and by their next turn they get a consolidation move, movement, fleet and assault again

Getting off a charge first turn is not hugely likely. The blob likely won't be deployed super far forward, if *anything* can see even a sliver of genestealer they have to be 18" away instead of 12", and with the size of most IG armies coupled with TLoS and the size of an 18 strong Genestealer squad, they just aren't going to ever get that 12", and with 18" the Genestealers are going to rely on maxing out that Run move (assuming they were 18" away and not 19" or 18.1", a common occurrence when trying to ensure the entire unit has cover/fits/etc, in which case they're pooched no matter what). So unlikely that they get off a first turn charge, exposing them to at least one, if not two (if the IG player went first) rounds of fire.

Regarding Zooanthropes - Tyranids are classic target saturisation. My gunline has to take down three squads of Zooanthropes/Hive Guard, as well as take out the swarm before it reaches my lines, as well as the MCs that are rushing towards my tanks. Realistically I can't take all of that down in a single turn of shooting, some things have to be prioritised - even if that means your Russ taking 3 BS4 S10 Lances to the front.

100% perfect IG thinking right there Everything is expendable.

Thanks 4 the info

I know this isn't an awesome answer of "Take unit X, it will win you the game every time", but you have to be a little more analytical to improve your performance against those armies.

You say that you don't keep army lists and that you just write them down. If you're throwing together a list right before the game starts, it's not likely you'll whip up a great list when facing a time crunch. Make a list ahead of time. Pick units with a task in mind. These guys will just sit and shoot. Those guys will be a screen for the first wave of assaulters that get to me. If you're not sure about it, post it in the lists section of dakka for some advice. Then during the game take notes on what your units did. Did they perform like you thought they would? Did they under perform? If they were not helpful, was it because of how you deployed them or moved them? What could I have done to make the unit more useful.

In terms of your opponent's units keep notes as well. You must have had enough games against your opponents that you know what units he has. You should probably know why he beats you too. Do they get into assault too quickly? Do they out flank? Do the big bugs withstand your shooting? This should give you an idea of how to counter his play style. If you're assaulted too soon, stay back further. If they outflank, take a more central position. If the big ones withstand more shooting, bring more guns.

If you keep better track of why you lose, you can either self correct those deficiencies, or bring more specific questions for people to help you. If you figure out that you simply don't bring enough shooting, you can ask people what's the most point efficient way to bring more guns that can deal with the enemy unit that has been giving you problems.

So just ask yourself "How did I specifically lose each game?". You might then form a better question than "why do I lose?".

bogalubov wrote:I know this isn't an awesome answer of "Take unit X, it will win you the game every time", but you have to be a little more analytical to improve your performance against those armies.

You say that you don't keep army lists and that you just write them down. If you're throwing together a list right before the game starts, it's not likely you'll whip up a great list when facing a time crunch. Make a list ahead of time. Pick units with a task in mind. These guys will just sit and shoot. Those guys will be a screen for the first wave of assaulters that get to me. If you're not sure about it, post it in the lists section of dakka for some advice. Then during the game take notes on what your units did. Did they perform like you thought they would? Did they under perform? If they were not helpful, was it because of how you deployed them or moved them? What could I have done to make the unit more useful.

In terms of your opponent's units keep notes as well. You must have had enough games against your opponents that you know what units he has. You should probably know why he beats you too. Do they get into assault too quickly? Do they out flank? Do the big bugs withstand your shooting? This should give you an idea of how to counter his play style. If you're assaulted too soon, stay back further. If they outflank, take a more central position. If the big ones withstand more shooting, bring more guns.

If you keep better track of why you lose, you can either self correct those deficiencies, or bring more specific questions for people to help you. If you figure out that you simply don't bring enough shooting, you can ask people what's the most point efficient way to bring more guns that can deal with the enemy unit that has been giving you problems.

So just ask yourself "How did I specifically lose each game?". You might then form a better question than "why do I lose?".

thanks and he uses way to many troop nids to take me out

Do you have an example of his list?
Even just short descriptions could help us figure out what he's fielding.

I play 'nids and IG, and my biggest fear with tyranids is playing someone who realizes that it's the number of shots, not the size of the template, that hurts horde armies. Put away your Demolishers and artillery and get out your Punishers and Hydras, and you'll always win. and don't go out of your way to kill synapse creatures, as the assault units will just keep assaulting with instinctive behavior.

rigeld2 wrote:Do you have an example of his list?
Even just short descriptions could help us figure out what he's fielding.

not really because he changes his lists all the time :(


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Hunchkrot wrote:I play 'nids and IG, and my biggest fear with tyranids is playing someone who realizes that it's the number of shots, not the size of the template, that hurts horde armies. Put away your Demolishers and artillery and get out your Punishers and Hydras, and you'll always win. and don't go out of your way to kill synapse creatures, as the assault units will just keep assaulting with instinctive behavior.

Thanks for the tip

Personally for me against nids (I recommend):
Flamers in command squads
Platoons with FRFSRF (flamers or nade launchers) and HWS with auto/lascannons
Hellhounds/bane wolves
Demolishers (2x)
Manticore

That way you have strong templates for close together things and platoons to deal with the separate/spread out stuff (orders important here)

Chaos isnt 2 hard vs nids ...

Two squads of CSM with Rocket Luanchers.
(I use 1ksons, when I do get those bolters to wound it denies a save 90% of the time. And the 4++ helps with Force Weapons tend to make them formidable.

I like Chaos lords with DW of Tzeench.

2 Defilers (for redundancy, if you can)

A squad of Terminators (auto cannon,MoT for 4++, and 2 fists if you can).