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I love the series as its gone so far. It offers a great deal of insight as to the individual primarchs and their warriors. You see the tragedy unfold and see it truly as a tragedy. Horus is a likeable character in the begining. And seeing his fall and how he was currupted was excellent. Seeing the events from the eyes of ordanary humans also adds to the story as well. It fills in the gaps that existed in the fluff and also adds more questions. I've been playing the game for over 10 years. And, these books are a joy to read. I tried to get my wife into the game. But that was unsuccessful. However, I passed her the first three books of the series and told her that it would help her to understand the back story of the game. I left for deployment nearly 2 years ago. While I was deployed my wife picked up the rest of the series and fell in love with the various 40k books. Our libary of warhammer books at home is quite large. I think by last count we've ammassed over a hundred of the books of the various series in the 40k universe.
Its kinda funny when I go to the shop where I play. My wife gets into discussions with the other players about the fluff and the various back stories. Their ammazed by how much a woman knows about the game that they play. Me and her even discuss the fluff and the novels. All it took was the first 3 Horus Hersey books and she's hooked. (Still can't convince her to play a game. But, its a victory none the less)

I honestly dislike them in a very large way. They are re-writing very large parts of the fluff that, before those books, I held to be sacrosanct.

In general, I would say that my biggest complaint about the books is that they are shining a spot light into the psyches, back stories, personalities, and personal successes/failings of both the Emperor and all of the Primarchs. I think that this destroys some of what I liked about the fluff, how everything was so distant, so baroque, the Primarchs were myths and legends, and the Emperor basically a god that people squabbled over their interpretations of. By explaining everything soooo thoroughly, they're taking all of that cool, musty, decaying, paradise lost feel of the setting... and making it all seem so very... mundane, defined, concrete... which captures my imagination far less effectively.

I'm aware that I'm in the minority, but that's how I feel about them.

Panzerboy26 wrote:I honestly dislike them in a very large way. They are re-writing very large parts of the fluff that, before those books, I held to be sacrosanct.

In general, I would say that my biggest complaint about the books is that they are shining a spot light into the psyches, back stories, personalities, and personal successes/failings of both the Emperor and all of the Primarchs. I think that this destroys some of what I liked about the fluff, how everything was so distant, so baroque, the Primarchs were myths and legends, and the Emperor basically a god that people squabbled over their interpretations of. By explaining everything soooo thoroughly, they're taking all of that cool, musty, decaying, paradise lost feel of the setting... and making it all seem so very... mundane, defined, concrete... which captures my imagination far less effectively.

I'm aware that I'm in the minority, but that's how I feel about them.

What large parts of the fluff are they rewriting? Much of what they're writing about is based on a couple sentences from an old Index Astartes article that isn't even available anymore, or a snippet of fluff from the back of a codex. Hell, the entire Horus Heresy was only invented so they could sell the old Epic starter game as one with Marines vs. Chaos Marines in a massive civil war! Your other comments I see as very valid, however. It does explore some details that have been kept very, very vague, and they remove some of the mystery from the setting. The books in the series I've read have been some of the best books from BL though. I'm not absolutely nuts about the series, but if Aaron Dembski-Bowden writes a Horus Heresy story, I'm going to read it.

Brother SRM wrote:

Panzerboy26 wrote:I honestly dislike them in a very large way. They are re-writing very large parts of the fluff that, before those books, I held to be sacrosanct.

In general, I would say that my biggest complaint about the books is that they are shining a spot light into the psyches, back stories, personalities, and personal successes/failings of both the Emperor and all of the Primarchs. I think that this destroys some of what I liked about the fluff, how everything was so distant, so baroque, the Primarchs were myths and legends, and the Emperor basically a god that people squabbled over their interpretations of. By explaining everything soooo thoroughly, they're taking all of that cool, musty, decaying, paradise lost feel of the setting... and making it all seem so very... mundane, defined, concrete... which captures my imagination far less effectively.

I'm aware that I'm in the minority, but that's how I feel about them.

What large parts of the fluff are they rewriting? Much of what they're writing about is based on a couple sentences from an old Index Astartes article that isn't even available anymore, or a snippet of fluff from the back of a codex. Hell, the entire Horus Heresy was only invented so they could sell the old Epic starter game as one with Marines vs. Chaos Marines in a massive civil war! Your other comments I see as very valid, however. It does explore some details that have been kept very, very vague, and they remove some of the mystery from the setting. The books in the series I've read have been some of the best books from BL though. I'm not absolutely nuts about the series, but if Aaron Dembski-Bowden writes a Horus Heresy story, I'm going to read it.

Just a few things off the top of my head for the things they've simply outright changed:

love it =D

Like some of the stories.

Don't like the retcons and ignorance of the setting.

The only HH book that I've liked is Know No Fear.The rest were pretty boring, IMO.

Retcons are such a common thing in 40k that a book series with a decent number of them doesn't really rub me the wrong way at all. This is all stuff that supposedly happened a long, long time ago and doesn't generally change that much in the "current" setting.

Brother SRM wrote:Retcons are such a common thing in 40k that a book series with a decent number of them doesn't really rub me the wrong way at all. This is all stuff that supposedly happened a long, long time ago and doesn't generally change that much in the "current" setting.

True enough, but it's generally 'recent' stuff that's retconed. For the most part the 'in the mists of legend at the founding of the Imperium' has been left alone over the past nearly two decades.

Redoing Lysander's fluff is one thing, changing up a Primarch is something entirely different.

Not knowing the old fluff, the HH series is the fluff to me. I have been reading them non stop for the last year and i love them.

Granted the fluff is just that. But, what the HH series does is give the emperor and primarchs a human side. That just wasn't able to be explored in the fluff.

Panzerboy26 wrote:

Spoiler:

Alpharius is apparently twins.

Horus was 'tricked' into betraying the Emperor, rather than just being a power hungry guy who proactively took an offer of power from Gods he didn't quite fully understand. Makes him a FAR weaker character in my book.

Fulgrim was apparently hollowed out and worn as a suit by a Slaaneshi Daemon Prince.

Apparently the Emperor's big 'plan' was to steal the Eldar's homework and conquer the Webway so that it could be used by humans instead of Warp Travel... and the REAL reason the Emperor got mad at Magnus for using forbidden magicks to try and warn him about Horus' betrayal was that in doing so, he 'broke' the part of the Golden Throne that would give mankind access to it.

None of that has changed. It was just not know before. It contradicts nothing.

And you get it all worng with the Webway. The Webway isnt the Eldars homework, they just use it. And the Emperor didnt want to steal it but build its own.

They're a bit inconsistant in terms of enjoyability IMO, luckily I have been able to avoid some of the worse ones. I mainly read them now for any sort of link with the Garro/birth of the inquisition sub-plot.

I'd say I'm middle ground. I haven't read them all (in fact, most I've listened to the audio books). Some of the books are pretty miserable (Battle for the Abyss, Deliverance Lost...). Some of them are reasonably good (A Thousand Sons, The First Heretic). Some are passably good (Know No Fear, the first three about the Sons of Horus). Others are definitely mediocre (Fulgrim, Outcast Dead...).

Really the only problem I've had with them is the fact that they try so hard to tell war stories, but are written by guys who don't know much, if anything about war. Plus, the Space Marines are relatively bland characters, and they are the focus of the novels because GW knows that's what the readership wants to read about. Some of the best classic GW fiction was about relatively innocuous characters. As a result, some of the best characters of the HH series have been the regular humans like the Remembrancers (McNeill for example, as poorly as he writes Space Marines, he writes relatively good human characters). Honestly, the stories should be more about the Space Marines from the perspectives of the regular humans. The more the two dimensional Space Marines dominate the story, the less interesting they are. The primarchs can be an exception to this, as when written well, their tales of corruption are intriguing.

I don't like some of the alterations that have been made, and it often seems that the much-vaunted coordination and meetings amongst Black Library staff and authors isn't nearly as good as people say. There are a lot of poorly conceived and coordinated things occurring. A lot of macguffins and a lot of "it's the Warp, that's how it works" hand-waving to replace coherent storytelling. A good example being the fact that the entire Word Bearers chapter participates at Istvaan V, and then travels halfway across the galaxy to Calth to attack it and the Ultramarines are completely unaware. Let's think about this. The largest ever mobilization of Space Marine Legions. Seven Legions sent to attack four that have apparently turned traitor, and event that is entirely unprecedented and completely inconceivable. And somehow, word of this never made it to Guilliman and the Ultramarines? LOL. Everybody seemed to know about Istvaan except Guilliman, and nobody bothered to tell him? Even with the months leading up to it, and the time taken afterwards for the Word Bearers to get to Calth? And why? "Because Warp Storms".

Dark Scipio wrote:

Panzerboy26 wrote:

Spoiler:

Alpharius is apparently twins.

Horus was 'tricked' into betraying the Emperor, rather than just being a power hungry guy who proactively took an offer of power from Gods he didn't quite fully understand. Makes him a FAR weaker character in my book.

Fulgrim was apparently hollowed out and worn as a suit by a Slaaneshi Daemon Prince.

Apparently the Emperor's big 'plan' was to steal the Eldar's homework and conquer the Webway so that it could be used by humans instead of Warp Travel... and the REAL reason the Emperor got mad at Magnus for using forbidden magicks to try and warn him about Horus' betrayal was that in doing so, he 'broke' the part of the Golden Throne that would give mankind access to it.

None of that has changed. It was just not know before. It contradicts nothing.

And you get it all worng with the Webway. The Webway isnt the Eldars homework, they just use it. And the Emperor didnt want to steal it but build its own.

It contradicts plenty. All of those things are changes.

According to an interview with Abnett, your first point was always something that the writers believed. In fact, from what I understand Abnett presented several plot twists when he was pitching Legion, all of them were accepted and he was told to add in the one you seem to have so much issue with. He was told that this was always something that they had wanted to present but didn't have a decent source to add it where it would be meaningful.

The next two I have some sympathy for, but your last point you're just mad because the Emperor isn't as super amazing as you want him to be.

It had some good books, but I gave up on it. You have to wade through too much crap to find the occasional gem of actual literature.

To me the Horus Heresy books just means less novels dedicated to the present of 40k, which in my opinion is more interesting anyway. That and I think Chaos and the Imperium are a tad overexposed and will happily take any book that does not feature one or the other and revel in the breath of fresh air. So I've generally avoided the series.

Kain wrote:To me the Horus Heresy books just means less novels dedicated to the present of 40k, which in my opinion is more interesting anyway. That and I think Chaos and the Imperium are a tad overexposed and will happily take any book that does not feature one or the other and revel in the breath of fresh air. So I've generally avoided the series.

I can see the point in this. But there are also novels based around the eldar, tau and even orks. Granted, I'd like to see a book written from the view point of the Necrons. It'd be different to see how the Necron lords interact with their Ctan masters and see their own rivalary between other Necron lords. In terms of the HH they give illumination to the individual primarchs. I'd really like to get a book that shows off the White Scars and their involvement. Which I admit is a bit of a disappointment not to see Khan. His legion also held the line at Terra and was able to resecure the Lions Gate space port. I really want to see them in action in a coming book.

Kiryu Mk 3 wrote:

Kain wrote:To me the Horus Heresy books just means less novels dedicated to the present of 40k, which in my opinion is more interesting anyway. That and I think Chaos and the Imperium are a tad overexposed and will happily take any book that does not feature one or the other and revel in the breath of fresh air. So I've generally avoided the series.

I can see the point in this. But there are also novels based around the eldar, tau and even orks. Granted, I'd like to see a book written from the view point of the Necrons. It'd be different to see how the Necron lords interact with their Ctan masters and see their own rivalary between other Necron lords. In terms of the HH they give illumination to the individual primarchs. I'd really like to get a book that shows off the White Scars and their involvement. Which I admit is a bit of a disappointment not to see Khan. His legion also held the line at Terra and was able to resecure the Lions Gate space port. I really want to see them in action in a coming book.

Read the Fall of Damnos, about 1/4 to a 1/3 is done from the necrons view point. It is something that I also want to see - huge numbers of bikes riding round with a primarch at the head of the charge. The series is good but does get a bit boring in some places when its the same thing over and over again, such as the fact the Lion thinks that Guilliman is a bigger traitor than Horus.

The problem I have had with the HH is that there are, despite some real gems, enough turds to really spoil what had the makings of a decent bowl of punch.

I guess this is what you get when you have writers of such disparate ability writing books in a series that just cries out for continuity as this series does.

I like to see what the do as filling in some of the blanks about the story. They're rewriting some of he story that we all know and love. Also, the books have drawn people in who haven't played the game or even heard of warhammer. They reveal that the primarchs weren't infalible. They did have their own faults. It gives them a humanity.

3 people: myself, a professional writer and a guy who has excellent literary taste have basically loved every one of them. Gav Thorpe has a somewhat amateurish style (bit of a consensus there) yet not a terrible story despite that. Abnett and Mcneill rock, and Boden has been exposed as being an absolute gem.

Before I even got into Warhammer I was recommended the fiction (6 months ago or a bit more) and I started my indoctrination with the HH. It didn't take long before I was put off so many books my negative reviews and whining, only to read them and thoroughly enjoy them. Of course I have my favourites but overall love the series and have enjoyed every book without fail.

Love the HH series, putting it 3rd as far as series go ( Lord of the Rings and A Song of Ice and Fire being #1 and 2)

A couple of books which i did not enjoy that much, but all in all I find each book to give that much more background to what i think is the most interesting time period of this universe.

Comes third for me as well (LotR and Dune) but except for Cohesion lost and battle of the abyss, they've been mostly great. Yes there are some parts that have been rewritten but Legion, Fulgrim, a thousand sons, Prospero Burns, Iron without, the last church, anything by ADB, and KNF I loved. It shows you how it happened, how we got to GRIMDARK and that moment where it could have been salvaged, where the whole thing could have been averted but for human fallibility. And I love it for that.

Not a fan.

Don't really care about a fictional history to a game where the fluff is so irrelevant that it gets retconned every edition anyway.

Also, not generally a fan of marine bolterporn - nor a retelling of "Paradise Lost" with space marines instead of angels.

Panzerboy26 wrote:

Dark Scipio wrote:

Panzerboy26 wrote:

Spoiler:

Alpharius is apparently twins.

Horus was 'tricked' into betraying the Emperor, rather than just being a power hungry guy who proactively took an offer of power from Gods he didn't quite fully understand. Makes him a FAR weaker character in my book.

Fulgrim was apparently hollowed out and worn as a suit by a Slaaneshi Daemon Prince.

Apparently the Emperor's big 'plan' was to steal the Eldar's homework and conquer the Webway so that it could be used by humans instead of Warp Travel... and the REAL reason the Emperor got mad at Magnus for using forbidden magicks to try and warn him about Horus' betrayal was that in doing so, he 'broke' the part of the Golden Throne that would give mankind access to it.

None of that has changed. It was just not know before. It contradicts nothing.

And you get it all worng with the Webway. The Webway isnt the Eldars homework, they just use it. And the Emperor didnt want to steal it but build its own.

It contradicts plenty. All of those things are changes.

Spoiler:

Alpharius was once a single Primarch. Now he is twins. They doubled the number of him. 1 and 2 are different numbers, where once he was one... now he is two. That, to me, is a massive re-write of the fluff.

Fulgrim was never hollowed out and possessed by a Slaaneshi Daemon Prince before, he was a Primarch who Horus personally talked into joining his side when Fulgrim tried to come and talk some sense into him. This is another change to the fluff.

The biggest change was that Horus was NEVER tricked into being a traitor, no one manipulated him. He was presented with a choice, and knowing full well that he was betraying the Emperor for his own self-reasons, he sided with Chaos. It made him a very strong, certain, respectable badguy. Watching him be manipulated into reaching fairly erroneous conclusions to play up the 'tragedy' of it makes me lose all kinds of respect for him. Again, this pretty hugely changes the fluff.

Sure, he wanted to 'create his own' webway. It's still copying the Eldar's notes right before class. Sure the Old Ones built it. But it's how the Eldar avoid warp travel, how their society functions in a universe where the entire warp wants to omnomnom their souls. It just seems lazy from a writer's pov that the Emperor could come up with something unique as a possible answer to the Warp. This last one isn't so much a change to the fluff as just a MASSIVE letdown.

And there were once 5 chaos gods, and gods of law of as well. Now there are only 4 chaos gods and no gods of Law (perhaps GW couldn't afford to pay Michael Moorecock that much in royalties?). Space Marines were once convicts hardwired with cranial bombs and augmetics and forced to fight for the rather vague imperium. Now they're the "angels of death." Change happens, the fluff has never been sacrosanct or fully formed.
That being said, overall, I like the books, I like having a fuller picture of the Horus Heresy, even if some of the changes annoy me:
Things I dislike:


Things I like:


So, overall, I enjoyed the books. A few, very few, things disappoint me, but that's just the nature of any fluff expansion.

I've read several of them now, and I love them. Some of them are better than others, and I'm unfamiliar with the old fluff, but if you want an opinion on the series as a whole, I say their great. It was reading Prospero Burns and Thousand Sons that really got me into the 40k world.

I have loved alot of them, a couple were meh to me (i.e. Legion, Tales of Heresy). Others I Really loved (i.e. an about the original Luna Wolves and before Horus was wounded.)
Fulgrim was sick. However, it was strangely enrapturing.

cowen70 wrote: a guy who has excellent literary taste have basically loved every one of them.

This sentence contains two conflicting and irreconcilable statements in it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

deathholydeath wrote:
Things I dislike:

Spoiler:

Lorgar is... well, disappointing. He was manipulated by his own stewards.

I'm not terribly happy with the way Angron is presented in the Age of Darkness collection.