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I play green tide Orks and run a gak ton of shoota boyz rokkits ect and really want to switch to IG so I can run a line of fire.

So how viable is an IG fire line list perhaps with artillery support ect.

Very, with the platoon system, as long as you don't mind paying for all those guys, you can put more so many guys on the table that other armies just wont be able to cope

This, basically.

They're very viable in general, and are a solid counter to many of the tournament-based netlists - lists which are created in a world where horde lists basically don't exist, and can thus be weak against them with no serious liability.

But you've got to buy them all and paint them all, and deploy them all, and move them all, and re-pack them all, and it's all quite a hassle.

It's not unfair to compare a green tide to a foot horde, though. Orks have the advantage of klaws, the ability to take sluggas, the KFF, and the ability to have a turn of guaranteed charge once per game. Guard, on the other hand, have the advantage of stubborn over fearless and the ability to take several power weapons (rather than just one klaw), and also have FRF and a staggering diversity of shooting options, making them more well-rounded over all.

IG have the advantage of orders and lots of heavy weapons. IG also get melta guns, which means AV 14 is not as much of a hassle as it is for green tide.
IG power blobs also can be intimidating for a MSU to assault -- though they are vulnerable to units with lots of attacks in assault, like orks.
IG get vendettas. These are argueably the best flyers in the game, and I have a strong feeling that were going to see a lot about flyers in 6th edition.
IG are more static than orks. As an ork player, its easy to blob around, as your rokkits are assault weapons. The only thing thats static are your lootas.

Imperial Guard Cadian Command Squad
Imperial Guard Cadian Kasrkin Squad
Imperial Guard Cadian Kasrkin Squad
Imperial Guard Cadian Kasrkin Squad
Imperial Guard Cadiansplatoon command squads x2
Two 50 Man guard platoons
Imperial Guard Leman Russ (variant you decide)
Imperial Guard Leman Russ (variant you decide)
Imperial Guard Leman Russ (variant you decide)
Imperial Guard Sentinel (variant you decide)
Imperial Guard Sentinel (variant you decide)
Imperial Guard Sentinel (variant you decide)

This is the list im going for, Troops just have las-rifes. my leman russes and sentinals are for anti tank. it comes to approx 2000 pts, not worked it out fully yet. but per turn you get approx 300 FRFSRF las shots

I'm not too savy on tournament play but just from the friendly games i've played i can't say i think infantry heavy Gun Line is the best way to play Guard. The problem with an infantry based Gun Line is that Guard are squishy and once you start losing models your fire out put is drastically reduced. Also any half decent close combat unit will tear through a blob (especially one that has been shot up) in a couple of Assault Phases or just as bad a resilient unit will tie them up for the rest of the game or just a throw away unit of Spess Mahreens (4 to hit 5 to wound and a 3+ save) will keep the blob from shooting for a turn at least. This is why i always equip Power Weapons so they can do some damage before they go down/make them enough of a threat to keep small throw away units away.

I don't have too much experience with an artillery/tank heavy list so i can't speak from experience but from what i've read they should hugely increase your fire power out put if you take the right units. So if you do want to make a competetive Gun Line then you might want to focus more on the artillery/tank units rather than the infantry.

labmouse42 wrote:IG power blobs also can be intimidating for a MSU to assault -- though they are vulnerable to units with lots of attacks in assault, like orks.

Ailaros wrote:It's not unfair to compare a green tide to a foot horde, though. Orks have the advantage of klaws, the ability to take sluggas, the KFF, and the ability to have a turn of guaranteed charge once per game. Guard, on the other hand, have the advantage of stubborn over fearless and the ability to take several power weapons (rather than just one klaw), and also have FRF and a staggering diversity of shooting options, making them more well-rounded over all.

Power Blobs are a good option

labmouse42 wrote:IG get vendettas. These are argueably the best flyers in the game, and I have a strong feeling that were going to see a lot about flyers in 6th edition.

Interesting point! GW do seem to be pushing flyers in the build up to 6th Edition rule set.

Ailaros wrote:But you've got to buy them all and paint them all, and deploy them all, and move them all, and re-pack them all, and it's all quite a hassle.

Very true. You'll save money, paint and play time buying tanks over mass infantry.

Just my thoughts.

Peace Out!
Jonny!

Wow thats a lot of helpful advice thanks a ton guys. I guess first you should know where I am coming from, I literally ran an 180 man (or close to) green tide nearly every game. In fact I won our FLGS 1000pt tourny with 3 max squads and a Big Mek (I think they were like 28 models each actually) But anyway thats not important the important part is that I have experience fielding large amounts of infantry so the aspect of not having to move already makes these guys sound like a godsend on game speed terms.

The problems I had with orks seem to not even compare with the problems for IG

no PK's means no str9 hits on rear, but then again Guard gets a str9 shot at 48, (per every 10 men instead of 30)
Also I feel like a str 3 las gun squad is going to dish out a lot more damage than people give ye old guardsman credit for (having played orks I know how much damage a shoota boyz squad can do with 5 bs and a little luck 56 str 4 shots is still 56 str 4 shots no matter how you paint it up).

This Project is a 2 to 3 year thing (I don't even have the money yet or a way to make it) just some friendly talk and wish-listing.
The main things I want to bring up are
1) Should I bother buying special weapons for my PCS
2) Should I bother buying special weapons for my Infantry Squads
3) Are conscripts with your friendly neighborhood BLAM! happy commissar worth it as compared to just getting more guardsmen (seem like the points cost of gretching vs orks to me) especially as a throw away counter charge unit.
4) Am I to assume I get Lascannons as my heavy weapons always and forever? what about Autocannons?
5) Are vox channels going to be worth it for this type of army?
6) What Heavy Heavy Supports should I use, I was thinking like 4 or so Medusa's and or like 3 Manticores or maybe even some Hydras for that anti light vehicle flak fire.
7) Are heavy weapons teams additions worth it or should I just spring for more guardsmen to give them 8 wound buffers?
8) I was thinking 3 squads of 1 vendetta each for some cheap (rape) lascannons

I'll make a sample list after these questions get a little answer so I have some general guidelines.

RubberJonny wrote:I'm not too savy on tournament play but just from the friendly games i've played i can't say i think infantry heavy Gun Line is the best way to play Guard. The problem with an infantry based Gun Line is that Guard are squishy and once you start losing models your fire out put is drastically reduced. Also any half decent close combat unit will tear through a blob (especially one that has been shot up) in a couple of Assault Phases or just as bad a resilient unit will tie them up for the rest of the game or just a throw away unit of Spess Mahreens (4 to hit 5 to wound and a 3+ save) will keep the blob from shooting for a turn at least. This is why i always equip Power Weapons so they can do some damage before they go down/make them enough of a threat to keep small throw away units away.

There's a lot of truth to this. Foot IG can be very easily countered if your opponent knows you'll be running it. Probably more useful in a tournament setting than friendly.

Velocifaptor wrote:
1) Should I bother buying special weapons for my PCS
2) Should I bother buying special weapons for my Infantry Squads
3) Are conscripts with your friendly neighborhood BLAM! happy commissar worth it as compared to just getting more guardsmen (seem like the points cost of gretching vs orks to me) especially as a throw away counter charge unit.
4) Am I to assume I get Lascannons as my heavy weapons always and forever? what about Autocannons?
5) Are vox channels going to be worth it for this type of army?
6) What Heavy Heavy Supports should I use, I was thinking like 4 or so Medusa's and or like 3 Manticores or maybe even some Hydras for that anti light vehicle flak fire.
7) Are heavy weapons teams additions worth it or should I just spring for more guardsmen to give them 8 wound buffers?
8) I was thinking 3 squads of 1 vendetta each for some cheap (rape) lascannons

1. I think special weapons in a PCS could be a good way to deal with deep strikers and outflankers. It's also a great place to jam in more heavy weapons.
2. Melta guns in the infantry squads serve as a good deterrent from tanks getting too close to them.
3. Conscripts are not worth it. They get no special weapons. No heavy weapons. No power weapons. Most importantly, no commissar. You need to bring additional units to make them stubborn or fearless.
4. Lascannons are generally better than autocannons.
5. Voxxes take points away from more weapons that you can bring.
6. The humble vanilla Leman Russ might be the best choice for heavy support. Another place to bring more lascannons as well. Of the two you ask about, the Manticore and the Hydra are the best.
7. Heavy weapons squads are very fragile, but are a good way to bring more weapons. You'll have to see what works for you.
8. Vendettas seem good, but I've never had problems knocking them out of the sky. I feel it's too much real world money for such a fragile units.

Velocifaptor wrote:1) Should I bother buying special weapons for my PCS

Maybe. It depends on what you want from them and what you are against. Some people give them Flamers to threaten hordes. You could give them a Missile Launcher to make them multipurpose or a Lascannon to snipe at things. You could give them Meltas and load them up in a Chimera to take the place of Melta Mech Vets. Personally i'm a fan of leaving them stock and using them for area denial such as leaving them at along the board sides in my deployment zone to keep away Outflanking units.

Velocifaptor wrote:2) Should I bother buying special weapons for my Infantry Squads

I can't say Special Weapons are worth it for a Gun Line blob but Heavy Weapon Teams are a good purchase because the blob can soak up wounds.

Velocifaptor wrote:3) Are conscripts with your friendly neighborhood BLAM! happy commissar worth it as compared to just getting more guardsmen (seem like the points cost of gretching vs orks to me) especially as a throw away counter charge unit.

Conscripts are awful and you need to take a Lord Commissar to lead them which is a waste. Also with WS2 and no Power Weapons they are even more useless in close combat than shooting even with Stubborn Ld 10. They just get cut down and don't do anything in return.

Velocifaptor wrote:4) Am I to assume I get Lascannons as my heavy weapons always and forever? what about Autocannons?

If we are talking Heavy Weapon Teams i find Autocannons just arent all that effective. You may want to try Missile Launchers given their versatility. Lascannons are primarily anti-tank and the rest of your blob can't target tanks so it is a waste of shooting. If you are talking Heavy Weapon Squads then at only 75pts they look like a decent buy on paper but HWS are rubbish in my opinion so i wouldn't suggest them at all and especially not with Lascannons, making them 105pts. For that you can get Airborne Assault Melta Storm Troopers which are much more effective.

Velocifaptor wrote:5) Are vox channels going to be worth it for this type of army?

When given the choice of a Commissar or Vox Casters i'd always choose the Commissar. With Ld 9 it is hard to fail the order Leadership Test and Stubborn with a re-roll the blob will (almost) never fall back. Although that time you really need your orders and you roll a double 6 you'll be kicking yourself, but that is a rare occurrence.

Velocifaptor wrote:6) What Heavy Heavy Supports should I use, I was thinking like 4 or so Medusa's and or like 3 Manticores or maybe even some Hydras for that anti light vehicle flak fire.

The Medusa isn't great. The small blast can easily scatter makng it ineffective for tank busting and because the S10 Large Blast is such a potential threat your opponet will certainly crack through the Medusa's frail shell to be rid of it. The Manticore is one of if not the best artillery peices from what i've read and Hydras also seem to be a staple in many army lists. I've read mixed things on the Colossus but it certainly looks good on paper and is quite the Marine killer. I personally love the good ol' Battle Tank; tough powerful and cheap. The Executioner is pretty damn cool but i'm not sure how competitive it is.

Velocifaptor wrote:7) Are heavy weapons teams additions worth it or should I just spring for more guardsmen to give them 8 wound buffers?

Not sure what you mean here but as i've already cover Heavy Weapon Teams in Blobs is a good idea.

Velocifaptor wrote:8) I was thinking 3 squads of 1 vendetta each for some cheap (rape) lascannons

Vendettas are cool models with cool rules. I'm not sure how competitive they are but they can Outflank and 3 twin-linked Lascannons is certainly not something i want aimed at my side or rear armour.

Just my thoughts.

Peace!

Foot guard is a tough fifth edition list. There is plenty of good advice on how to run them on Dakka.

That being said the #1 problem I have with foot guard is as a horde army it can be very difficult to finish every turn in a timed tournament. Odds are you and your opponent will run out of time before the game ends.

6th edition is also coming out in 2 weeks, I would not buy any armies before June 23rd until you know how they will work in 6th edition. Also if directed wounds rumors turn out to be true that will be the end of foot guard as we know it.

I'm not sure as to the first 2, I'd say it depends on your list, as far as conscripts go, they are 1 point less than a guardsman, so you can get the same number of guardsman for less than x conscripts and a commissar - I'd avoid them out side of friendly games.

If you intend on running 3 vendettas, I wouldn't bother with lascannon teams, vendettas are a cheaper, more effective way of getting lascannons on the field, and yes, autocannons are good, but don't overestimate, I know way too many people who put too much faith in autocannons.

This is the only kind of army that really should consider a vox network, however, if you are running that many squads it can become costly to kit them all out with a vox - I'm not sure how combining squads works with voxs, that might be worth looking into.

As far as artillery is concerned, this is a question i posed to dakka a while a go and got a really useful response: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/448066.page

one thing I've learnt playing guard is never underestimate the good old Leman russ battle tank.

and finally yes, vendetta's are a fantastic way of getting lascannons on the field, and the twin-linked is great with the guard's ballistic skill.

Hope this helps!

schadenfreude wrote:That being said the #1 problem I have with foot guard is as a horde army it can be very difficult to finish every turn in a timed tournament.

Right, foot guard isn't for tournaments. Tournaments never have enough terrain, and foot guard requires the proper amount of terrain. Tournaments usually have ludicrous time rules like 2,000 points in 2 hours, and a proper 2,000 point foot horde list will have upwards of 200 models, which will be impossible to play properly. Thirdly, tournaments almost NEVER have games that are determined by JUST kill points, which dilutes the usefulness of a foot guard list. If you play the missions as they're found in the rule book, things are better for foot guard.

Because tournaments warp 40k, it obviously warps things in favor of somethings, and against others. On the plus side, most netlists are built to be good in a tournament meta, which means that if you're playing against someone with a tournament list while NOT in a tournament environment, you have a real advantage.

Alright so here is my mock list I came up with.

Command Squad with a las 70
Command Squad with a las 70

Infinity Platoon 400
pcs w/ a las
5 infintry squads w/ 5 las

Infinity Platoon 400
pcs w/ a las
5 infintry squads w/ 5 las

Infinity Platoon 400
pcs w/ a las
5 infintry squads w/ 5 las

Infinity Platoon 360
pcs w/ a las
5 infintry squads w/ 3 las

Leman Russ w/ las 165

Leman Russ w/ las 165

Total 2000

I personally think that mixing heavy weapons into infantry squads is a bad thing, unless the heavy weapon is used to fire at troops. Either the lascannons shoot or the guardsmen do, the other is wasted for the turn. Plus las are the most expensive of the heavy weapons. I think an army that never moves is a bit boring and very easy to take on. I personally prefer infantry squads to have nothing but lasguns, but that's me.

prune those infantry platoons down to 4 apiece to give you the points that are necessary for commissars to keep the troops on the table. This will also give you the points for some power weapons and special weapons which will greatly increase the killing power of the squads for cheap.

Also, you might want to consider al'rahem to outflank one of these platoons, as the tables going to get pretty crowded.

In any case, you should probably start out by plotting a 1,000 point list and playing that a bit, or at least 1500 before you start thinking bigger than that.

I'm currently play testing some foot vet lists that are performing quote well at the flgs. Its alot less models, but you can still spam tons of heavy and special weapons, and still have points left over to flush out your fast attack and heavy support at 1500+. Much more viable imho.

An army of footvets + toys is more viable? It appears you're not playing against many serious close combat armies, or high mobility short-range armies like drop pods or DE.

I'd really like to see how well this concept does against a DoA list, for example.

Just keep in mind, a foot horde guard list is not a point and click easy win army. It takes a lot of finesse to win with, even though you're essentially just throwing guardsmen and firepower at a problem until it goes away. You really have to learn what your guys can and can't handle, as well as how to spread them properly. You will learn that most units other armies fear, you'll be indifferent to, while other units that usually aren't a big deal will become terrifying. With everyone bringing as much S6-8 shooting as possible to kill transports, you'll be indifferent, as they'll be forced to waste those shots on 5pts guardsmen.

For example, I laugh at long fangs. The WORST I've ever taken from a full salvo was 5 dead guardsmen. By maximizing spacing and setting up well, I negated something that normally would be a big threat to a horde army (that 2" spread is a lifesaver). Most armies can't say that. However, Rune priests are terrifying if they're being used by a smart player (aka everyone at my store) since that weird Jaws of the world wolf or whatever (the one that fires in a line) can snipe your commissars from your blobs, even when they normally can't be sniped by shooting. You'll also learn to shoot anything that has the word "flamer" in it as soon as possible

One piece of advice I can lend though is that if you're going to throw in armor with a foot horde list, it's usually best to go big or go home. Only bringing a few low AV units like artillery or hydras is just asking for them to get annihilated turn one, since all the enemy's anti tank will focus on them. If I consider bringing vehicles, I only bring Leman Russ variants. That way, it's either a 5 pt guardsman, or an AV14 tank that my enemy has to shoot at. Hence why I don't really fear long fangs. They're not that scary when all they can do is maybe get a lucky glance on a tank or try and pick off a few guardsmen. Also, read ailaros's battle reports on his blog. He's tried a lot of different combos, and reading his battle reports gives you a good idea of what to expect when you want to bring certain units.

Cheap way to get lots of guardsmen firsthand is to get the 5 packs for like 8 bucks as filler. Get maybe a few regular guard squads to make your force look a little different (not everyone standing in the same position) and get some IG laspistol hands from a bitz dealer to make your sergeants while the snap together 5 man boxes make up the majority of your force. Will save you like 22 bucks over a regular guard box (of course you get no options of a sergeant, but with infantry spam that is less of an issue than sheer price).

If you plan on using sentinals, the battleforce will be your best friend. Nice little platoon packs right there, and if you can put the senitnals to good work, then you'll save a few bucks for russes or bassies or whatever.

Ailaros wrote:An army of footvets + toys is more viable? It appears you're not playing against many serious close combat armies, or high mobility short-range armies like drop pods or DE.

I'd really like to see how well this concept does against a DoA list, for example.

Foot vets excel at short range fights. But effectiveness decreases with increasing point level. For example, at1000 points a foot vet list can pack 18 or more plasma guns and around eight heavy weapons. One BA assault marine squad is what? 200-250 alone. Any marine variant just can't bring enough bodies. I'll admit DE poison is difficult.

With an infantry based platoon, you will be sitting still most of the time. You do not go toward your enemy, you let them come to you. This is where the IG have an advantage over most other armies. Does your opponent want to:

1. Sit back while your long range fire drop large blast templates from across the table? Not realy. This is what your LRBT and Basilisks are good for.

2. Does he advance where your orders come in handy and suddenly an infantry squad is pouring out near 30 shots, at BS 3 and Strength 3, no, but, it is better than getting pounded on from afar.

This is what you need your opponent to decided on. Things to remember about mass infantry:

1. It needs to have some sort of power weapon to help in close combat. When you have the option to take them, take them. Power fists are a waste of points.

2. Commissars. Take them whenever you can. Commissar with power weapon is only a 45 point upgrade to the squad. It is not an independent character so, cannot be singled out. Stubborn. Maybe the best ability for any infantry squad to have.

3. Heavy weapons: take them as a squad upgrade. Sit still and fire every turn.

Just my thoughts on this. I did play infantry based IG before, but, opted for an alternative build, and no, not mech vets either.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

loota boy wrote:If you plan on using sentinals, the battleforce will be your best friend. Nice little platoon packs right there, and if you can put the senitnals to good work, then you'll save a few bucks for russes or bassies or whatever.

Armored sentinels work best in my opinion and experience. Maybe not for what they destroy from fire power. Can't say how many times I tar pitted a furrioso dread with blood claws in close combat while infantry platoons just shot away at assault marines.

So do I only put a commissar in the platoon leader squad or every squad?

Velocifaptor wrote:So do I only put a commissar in the platoon leader squad or every squad?

1 commissar for each combined blob. The blob does not really need to be more than 30 men either. With stubborn any more men could be better put in another squad. Don't bother with a Comm in the PCS or CCS, they are far too small.

Look at Al-Raheem as suggested for a foot list as deployment could become a bit cramped. Or use stormtroopers, penal legion, scout sentinels as a scout force to try and get to side/rear armour early.

Generally look to use every special weapon slot you can, this is one of the strengths of IG platoons.

Orders are key especially with heavy weapons teams. For blobs with a commissar leadership is pretty high but for HWS you might want to take a Lord Comm as a second HQ to improve their leadership roll for orders.

Straken or Creed is then the next consideration. I'm a fan of Creed in a large foot list for the larger orders radius and 4 orders per turn, but really you need to be at at least 1,750 before looking at special characters.

Velocifaptor wrote:1) Should I bother buying special weapons for my PCS
2) Should I bother buying special weapons for my Infantry Squads
3) Are conscripts with your friendly neighborhood BLAM! happy commissar worth it as compared to just getting more guardsmen (seem like the points cost of gretching vs orks to me) especially as a throw away counter charge unit.
4) Am I to assume I get Lascannons as my heavy weapons always and forever? what about Autocannons?
5) Are vox channels going to be worth it for this type of army?
6) What Heavy Heavy Supports should I use, I was thinking like 4 or so Medusa's and or like 3 Manticores or maybe even some Hydras for that anti light vehicle flak fire.
7) Are heavy weapons teams additions worth it or should I just spring for more guardsmen to give them 8 wound buffers?
8) I was thinking 3 squads of 1 vendetta each for some cheap (rape) lascannons .

1) If you have the points, extra melta is always good. As mentioned, it stops deep strikers
2) If you have the points, yes. 3-5 melta guns will keep a LR from tank shocking you. They are deterrent, like the spikes on a porcupine.
3) No. Infantry guard are better
4) 50/50 ratio of LC to AC. ACs are better at killing AV 10 than LCs, and nearly as good at AV 11. This is due to the 2 shots ACs get. LCs are there to take out AV 12+ at range
6) IMHO if you have only a few vehicles, make em tough. AV 14 Russ' are much more resilient than hydras.
7) They are easy to target and kill, I would go with infantry squads.
8) Excellent idea.

Barksdale wrote:Foot vets excel at short range fights.

They're not as good at this as mechvets though. Mechvets give you a free 6" of movement over vets on foot. Not saying that foot vets can't be made to work ever (like, say, in the context of several power blobs), but that an all-foot-vet army is doomed due to utter fragility in its troops section.

martin74 wrote:With an infantry based platoon, you will be sitting still most of the time. You do not go toward your enemy, you let them come to you.

That really, really depends. Most of the games I've played with foot guard I've been the aggressor. Foot guard can soak up field position like a sponge, which means it's pretty easy to dominate the board by mid-game through sheer number of dudes everywhere.

I've played more defensively against armies I absolutely knew were going to be aggressive, but if there was ever a chance, I'd take the initiative and charge.

It is true what Ailaros is stating. You can be agressive, plus, advancing does help spread out and grant you that 2in distance between minis. What I was stating, that if you run heavy weapons in the squad a(which I think is better than HWS) you will want to sit still and and shoot either that autocannon or lascannon. I have played blob squad, 30 with two commissars and all sgt with power weapons. There have been time when it was to my advantage to assault. Nothing bothers a SM player when you assault his terminator squad with a blob squad and they are tied up for multiple turns, then, the termies are gone.

I agree with all of this, however a tactic I have recently been using and have found to be very effective is to use veterans (3+ to hit which dramaticly increases amount of possible kill for 10 more points!) give some lascannons and camo cloaks at stick them in a building that's 3+ to hit with 8 las guns and a las cannon with a 3 plus cover save!!!

Tell me what you think!

Power blobs are not a competitive choice, but if your opponents are not plaing the best armies, blobs can be viable. But there is just so many armies, which counter power blobs easily, they are in fact not very strong...