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Hello. I am currently playing Tomb Kings, and while I find it as funn and a good way to learn the game (the hard way) I love modeling units. I would really love to make an Asian army. This is where I amhumbly asking your opinion.

- I would like to make lord/hero choises that look like samurai or ninjas.

- I would realy like to have some cavelery in it, as I am a bit tierd of not having that mutch mobilaty as a TK player. (Necropolis knights aside.) Preferably in core.

- I would really love to have the lore of shadow in it. Both because it is good, but also because it feels very ninja ish.

- It does not have to be "dark" but it do not want "good" samurais.

- I would like to be abel to model some mythical chariot or something similar to act like a centerpiece. It would baisicly be a count as. It could be anything from a chaos warshine, vampier coven throne, an asian insipered celestial dragon, a count as daemon etc.

The armies that are really standing out for me would be Ogres (maneater samurai, mournfangs with round rise hats on them) Warriors or Chaos (the marauder horse lords are a good fitt, and convertet marauders to samurai could be a smart samurai fitt) Vampiers (They would make good samurai, have axes to lore of shadow on hero choise that fits well with ninjas, and blood knights would be good samurai) empire (a lott of things could be "asianised" here, but it is an army with a big unit number and would requier a -LOTT- of converting.) I am counting out high and dark elfs since it would be hard to find models for them and they are very culturaly rooted. Although high elf could be a very good fitt. I am also wondering about daemons but I cannot for the life of me think of good models to use, just as with the elf choise.

I can come up with good conversions and models for ogres, warriors of chaos and vampiers. Not so mutch for empier, high elfs or daemons.

However, I want your oponion on what army to choose as well as how it would fitt into the lore. I am not so good with the lore. How could I argument this and convey it in the army list?

If you want to go super awesome stats samurai, I'd go with WoC or Ogres.

For elite humans, use WOC. The downside is, you will have no mounted samurai with daikyu.

I play regularly against an 'samurai' ogre army. Big basket hats and backbanners, looks pretty neat!

Vulcan you play against a samurai ogre army?! Wow impressive!

I must say I could really fall in love with a samurai power army. Although warriors of chaos would be good I could also really like an empire army. I have no idea how it would play though.

If the samurai models from the wargames factory can be used in warhammer fantasy then a lott of conversion work would really be done. ( http://wargamesfactory.com/webstore/rising-sun )

However how would this work fluffy? Could some nippon soldiers walk towards the empire from the east, and play like an empire army? What do we know about Nippon? Or the china? Do they havesamurais?

or could they take a boat up to the north and then walk down after being corupted? Also, what good would corupt samurais? Khorne could fitt some very angresive samurais. I could also see Slanesh getting her hooks into them.

Niiai wrote:Hello. I am currently playing Tomb Kings (...)
I would realy like to have some cavelery in it, as I am a bit tierd of not having that mutch mobilaty as a TK player. (Necropolis knights aside.) Preferably in core.

Are we talking about the same Tomb King army that has horsemen and chariots as standard?

Anyway, I do Skaven with an Eshin theme. A.o. plague monks as warrior monks.

We are talking that very same army Kroothawk. I am not very sold on the flexibilaty of TK. I might not be the best TK player but I do not think all of the models are that strong.

I have had some luck with horse archers as stalers/redirekters. They are very good. However, I have not managed to field them very agresivly, mind you I have not tryed that somutch.

I have never managed to put the horsemen in the list. They look very mutch like rubbish. WS2, no marching and S4 on the attack with a 5+ or 4+ save is not so good for the points i pay. They might be flankers but if I want fighters It is better to use a chariot.

I like the chariot...ish. Even though chariots are S4, T4 5+ save that is quite good, however I am not that sold on them. S4 is not that impressive, S5 is so mutch better, but that is super expemsive. And the chariots are taking up somutch room! Moast in TK takes up a big space. Skeletons need a big fotprint to not crumble instant fast, the same with chariots. Archers etc. The only compact thing in the army is tomb guards.

I am not saying that necropolis knights are not good, just let me say that I want to try a different plate. One that can auto march.

Enough backtracking. I wanne play Samurais. :-) I like your skaven theme. How do you like converting that many skaven models?

Use the rules for High Elves. It is really easy to make them asian-inspired. The new Empire can also work in a pinch as the difference between EU peasants and knights and Japan/Chinese peasants and knights wasn't all that significant.

Ogres are horrible for samurai, because samurai aren't 12' tall monstrous infantry stomping people and gut-charging. If you use their rules, you have to use models of that size for line of sight and formations. I can't think you'd want to buy 30 of the same maneater model no matter how cool he is.

WoC have all their chaos rules as well such as eye of the gods. They are also super high armor, which doesn't make as much sense.

DukeRustfield: I could see ogre work. Ogre bulls and mounrfangs with peasant hats. Iron guts could be samuraised up with big ornament clubs (some of the already are asian like) The main job on converting would be to make maneaters into samurai as well as a tyrant, and to do something with the mages. (I am good at converting so I am confident it could work.) Ogres could easalybe painted yellow and they are from the east. Also the bare bodies could make for a nice tatoo arie. The small model count would sertanly help. But it seems a bit dull perhaps.

I can really see high elf rules work very well. Sword masters with a magic banner. Yes please. A sun dragon could be a celestial dragon. And a lord could have shadow mastery spell lore. It would requier some modeling for the heads though. And it would really need a good backround story. Why have these elves adopted another culture? An abandoned outpost perhaps.

Chaos warriors would be awsome. I agree that the high armour amount would be hard to fit t,but that would be just to paint the samurai armour in mettal and not other material. It could really be nice to see samurais from nippon (are there samurais in nippon?) marching north to fight a chaos campain. And on the vurdge of victory they get corputed. And now they walk south close to the empire.

If you look at samurais more realisticaly they could really work under the empire rules, as long as you restrict your model choises some. The new empire book looks quite interesting, but then chaos will get a new book quite soon. Detcahed units could really represent some quite nice leadership from the samurais side. Also warriors priests could be some good models.

In short I am looking to you for insipration and dessision. I want it to be fluffy but I am not very good with count as and warhammer fluff.

But Ogres are giant. You can dress Ogres up any way you want, but they are still twice the size of normal rank-and-file troops and there's no indication that the asian races in WHFB are gigantic humans and quite a few indications they aren't. You could certainly make them simply Maneater asians or some Ogres that didn't flee the Cathay region, but they'd still be Ogres, not asian-human, which is what I thought the intention was.

I was actually planning on making a Nippon army using Wargames Factory's 28mm miniatures.

As I wanted to go for regular "humans" I'm sticking with the Empire book. Handgunners and cannons are hard to replicate elsewhere, book-wise.

Duke Rustfield you rasist! ;-) I am interested in the culture/mythos/esthetics not the actual small yellow steriotype. Ogres could me made asian, in fact currentky they are the once in the armybooks that look moast asian, although a bit more mongolian / eastern Europe then chinese or japansese. Even if the fluff I think it is speculated that it is the Celestial court who curse them with the big Maw metorite. It is long since I have read it but they do get some curses from them or driven West.

Cryonicleech is rooting for empire. It seems any of Ogres, Chaos, High Elves (needs a good backstory), Empire or Vampiers could work. I will have to think a bitt about what army I want to play and then come up with the backround afterwards.

With Ogres, it might help if you paint them Blue and Red! Slap on some horns n gourds and you got some proper nipponese ogres

Yeah the ogres are a natural fit. If I end up doing empire I might stick some ogres into the rank and file for easthetic purposes only.

If I go chaos then I can use mutated ogres. :-)

There are Japanese themed ogres, most called Oni (daemons):

Bushido:


Okko Miniatures (OOP):


Rackham (OOP):


For human Japanese, see
Perry Miniatures
http://www.perry-miniatures.com/index.php?cPath=23_38

and Kensei (upcoming):
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/436094.page

Now this is something that my firends and I have also been considering, if you want a literal ninja Army, look no further then clan Eshin for the Skaven. They train and live in the east so the models boast the actual weapons of the eastern people, and they have plenty of models to make a well functioning ninja army, albiet not very competitive, though i imagine it would be super fun to play. Night runners are core choices and a pack of twenty nightrunners costs the same as twenty clanrats. Get a few large night runner units (they go by unit not pack in their fluff which i find pretty neat), a couple groups of gutter runner strike squads, a big pack of stormvermin, which look pretty samurai esq IMHO, and a chieftan to lead the army. Or if you would like a more magic heavy approach you could always bring a grey seer to run with one of your squads, since it wouldnt be to hard to make him look like a monk, get a few of the ribbons and bells from a plague monk kit, and there you go. Top it off with the holy grail of skaven ninjas the either beloved, or hated, Deathmaster Snikch, with a few assasin buddies to give the nightrunner squads a bit more punch, or take the more mindgame approach and put them in the already powerful stormvermin unit to discourage flank attacks. All in all, the list wouldnt be too hard to create, and in terms of money it would be around 300 to 400 dollars, assuming you are starting from scratch and want ZERO proxies (also assuming you do the true skaven thing and have a few slave packs as well, because what Feudal army isnt complete with peasants ready, to die for the Daimyo?)

If you want i could also make a mock up version of the list for you

Wow I am really liking the responce I get here!

Those Kensei miniatures look really good Kroothawk. As does the perry minatures but they might be a bit exspensive. 6,5 euroes for 5 samurais might be a lott. I do not know.

I was thinking of maybe go for these: http://wargamesfactory.com/webstore/rising-sun

Looking at GW prices, I would not call 1€ per miniature expensive

BTW I use these OOP Rackham Ashigaru Goblins as my Skaven slaves (well, one unit, to keep the price low, and they are hard to get)


And while I am at it, here two sources for japanese buildings:

Jenkins: http://www.johnjenkinsdesigns.com/japan.htm


... and Hovels (cheaper, 25mm):
http://www.hovelsltd.co.uk/oriental25.htm

Kroothawk wrote:
For human Japanese, see
Perry Miniatures
http://www.perry-miniatures.com/index.php?cPath=23_38

and Kensei (upcoming):
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/436094.page

You forgot the most obvious:

L5R Clan War

http://www.veltd.net/28mmclanwar.htm

They're even back in print!

I saw those L5R miniatures and I really fell in love with the dragon models and I really fell in love with one of the daemons and the dragons.

Also these are nice.


Is there any army that could use the daemon model as well as the dragon?

Chaos could. Use the demon as a Giant and the Dragons as Shaggoth and Chaos Dragon.

Dear OP,

I'm currently in the middle of this very project!

I found myself with three choices that made sense rules wise. If you don't mind, I'll cover some already trodden ground for a minute, then tell you what I've chosen for my escalation league.


1st: The New Empire

If you are enamored with the typical nihon army, you are aware of the utility and widespread use of the ashigaru footmen. The new empire has great rules that cover the soldiers of the 1300's-1500's in Japan. Spearmen/Swordsmen/Handgunners can very easily be repesented with your previously linked Ashigaru box sets. My only problem was I felt like there wasn't a unit that significantly represented samurai. Greatswords were close, but I just don't like the low WS and Init of the unit. This led me to consider...

2nd: Warriors of Chaos

Warriors of Chaos has such an amazing core trooper in the Chaos Warrior that I nearly took the dive here as well. WS5 is boss. Init 5 seems legit. My only issue was the STR/Toughness 4 and the fact that I didn't see the Nihon as 25mm base creatures. Honestly, I very nearly created a Shadowlands army using lore from Legend of the 5 Rings. They have a great line of 25mm based 28mm models. Plus, you could easily use any of a multitude of amazing deamon models to represent Oni, Demons, or random evil spirits. The only thing that stopped me is the fact I already have a painted WoC army. So I looked here...

3rd: High Elves

The propensity of Magic in the high elves book almost pushed me away. However, the lore surrounding fantasy shugenga and monks with mystical powers helped me leap this gap. I couldn't justify the ashigaru in the army, not with the amazing high elf statlines, so I invested in some Sohei Monks and use them as spearmen. Swordmasters are exactly what I would imagine in a fantasy powered samurai. Here's pics of what I'm using in my 500 point list that I've entered into an escalation league.

Hero:

High Elf Noble with Armor of Caledor

http://www.nobleknight.com/imagepage.asp?image=VELL5P30.jpg&name=Shiba Tetsu

(Valiants L5R characters are really good and can represent a large range of wargear applicable to models. Plus, they only roll about 5 bucks a fig. Check the whole site here. http://www.veltd.net/28mmphoenixclan.htm The Shadowlands section still tempts me. Zombie samurai army for the win!)

Core:

15 High Elf Spearmen using the following models.

http://www.oldgloryminiatures.com/proddetail.asp?prod=SUM%2D12[

http://www.perry-miniatures.com/product_info.php?cPath=23_38&products_id=2350

The Old Glory models are an amazing deal. 35 dollars for 30 models. There's enough poses to make everyone look nice in a unit. If you aren't as anal as I am about the poses, you won't mind the hammer and axe wielding monks. I consider Perry Miniatures to be the corvette of Nihon minis, and use the 5 listed as various commands.

Elite:

12 Swordmasters of Hoeth using the following models.

http://www.perry-miniatures.com/product_info.php?cPath=23_38&products_id=2320

http://www.perry-miniatures.com/product_info.php?cPath=23_38&products_id=2321

Note that all Perry mini's come with Sashimoto to attach should you see fit. ( Those are the little back banners. Great for keeping units seperate or designating commands.)

Rare:

Giant Eagle

I'm torn between this and basing two of these together..



Best part is I've decided that once I put together some Ashigaru models, my Nihon force can play as either Empire or High Elves. There's a lot of options out there depending on what your looking for! Here's some more links. I hope I don't double any up.

http://www.em4miniatures.com/acatalog/Oriental_Blades__unpainted_.html
http://www.bushido-thegame.com/
http://www.museumminiatures.co.uk/pages/prod_samurai%2028mm.html
http://www.muraminiatures.com/on-collecting-samurai-miniatures.html


PS: From the standpoint of the almighty dollar, you can't do better than either old glory or wargames factory. I just didnt like the samurai poses from wargames, despite the amazing price.

Wow thunderfrog, that is so amasing! I really like your enthusiasem.

I must ask you about the models. How do they look? I know they are not heroic scale, do they match the heoric scales when on the tabletop? Also, how tall are they, can they be passed of as elfes? Could they be passed of as chaos warriors?

I am currently playing TK, and the more I look at empire the more they remind me of TK. (Thoghnes 3, needs to make a whole that is bigger then the sum of it's parts.)

High elf really hit the spott for swordmasters. Although I could very mutch like to give them naginatas and use them as phoenix guards. I know, not quite the katana, but the japanese warriors where originaly horse lords etc. The samurai with the sword came quite late into that culture. I can not do elyrian reavers because they are quite bad but phoenix guard would rock. Sword masters are always the first to die in bigger games, I am thinking that 4+ ward save might help.

The thing is, if I go for chaos I could use less models, have some units as both marauder horsemen and as chaos knights, along with chaos warriors on foot. I could fitt in a demon prince or a dragon as center pieces along with a chaos shrine inspiered by a shinto gate. The gate was there to remind people that you where entering a holy place, and for a falen chaos worshipping samurai the battlefield should be sutch a place.

Another great option considering the warriors of chaos is doing something along the lines of a Mikoshi Portable Shrine. That's an easy representative for a Warshrine.

Anyways, your in luck, because I play WoC, have these Perry Miniatures everywhere, AND play tomb kings. So I can tell you that in scale, everything is pretty set. The non-heroic scale isnt an issue really. It helps lend credence to the fact your guys are Nihon with smaller hands and features.



(From left to right: GW Chaos Warrior, GW Skeleton Archer, Perry Samurai 1, Perry Samurai 2, Old Glory Fighting Monk, Valiant Miniatures Lion Clan Lioness and a Phoenix Clan Bushi.


As slight as the difference is here, its notable that its only because the two models are sidebyside that you can tell.

By the way, another problem with WoC as Samurai is most the models you will field look silly on the large 25mm bases.

Also, the skeleton and the warrior are a little bit higher up than they should be thanks to their magnetic bases.

Thank you very mutch thunderfrog!

I am now rooting towards high elfs or chaos. While empire would be cool I would end up playing them to mutch like my tomb kings, only with armour saves. (4+ great armour instead of light armour?! Marcching? What is this?)

So what I wonder is this: Other people. Look at thunderfrogs picture, could the samurai be used as count as chaos warriors? Is there any trick to make them look more like chaos warriors? (Putting them high on a base for instance.)

Could they count as Chaos warriors?

Anything could count as really. I dont know what sized based your Wargames factory are but if they're 20's you'll need to get some 25's.

Here are minis I considered for a shadowlands/undead samurai army.

(Also note, you can use your best figs up front and then fill the ranks with less awe inspiring figs from other lines.)

http://www.veltd.net/28mmshadowland.htm

http://www.frpgames.com/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=52131

http://us.asmodee.com/ressources/jeux_versions/okko-miniatures.php

Thats just a few to inspire. I only recommend the undead/demon samurai themes for warriors of chaos because most of those models are beefier.

Rules wise they are easy to explain. Even your chaos marks are simple to justify. Instead of Mark of Khorne call the addition of frenzy Way of the Blooded Sword or something appropriate and take it to the bank. If you strip all the grimdark away, marks are very easily representative of varying fighting styles. Gifts of Chaos could be translated to unique abilities learned from martial arts schools or whatnot.

The more I look at it the more I think I could do chaos. It is only the cloak and the broad shoulders that make them look so tall. Empire swordmen also have a 4+ save withouth any trouble. All I need is just to possision them a bit high on a 25 base.

All the lists I come up with for High Elfs are just mage spam, sword masters and phoenix guard. Funn for me, but not so mutch my oponent. Armour and T4 really is a change of phase from my TK as well.

Besides if anyone asks why your samurai are as good as WoC, just say "I was inspired by WAB's Samurai"

I am just wondering, would any of these heads fit on warriors of chaos?

http://www.westwindproductions.co.uk/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=182&products_id=1367

http://www.westwindproductions.co.uk/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=182&products_id=1368

If I am slapping samurai heads on some chaos warriors I was really looking for heads with masks on though. One of the really good thing about chaos warrior is that they are so inhuman, once they go over to the rank of chaos knight they get de-humaniced behind that armour of steel.